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Is Communism a Natural Tendency?

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Solorni
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Is Communism a Natural Tendency?

Postby Solorni » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:00 pm

Reading Aristotle's Politics, (at least the first three books) I was struck by how they addressed communism as it was understood then and also the development of mankind. In Aristotle's version of events, the household is the natural evolution of man which then in turn becomes villages and then cities based on the concept of self-sufficiency. This self efficiency is based on how different households will have various amounts of goods to satisfy their needs and thus trade between households is necessary. Although it should be noted that he associates this with the most common of the acquirers; the farmers rather than fishermen, hunters and especially nomads.

Aristotle also addresses the idea of shared property which he disagrees with vehemently due to a belief that what has shared between many will be cared for the least. In his mind, owning things privately causes the owner to show greater care and a sense of self-pride (although too much will result in selfishness). Thus Aristotle believes that the best way to share property would be for private ownership but public usage. This makes a lot of sense when one thinks of something like a ladder. If 5 people own and share a ladder, it wouldn't really be taken care of. This is compared to if one of those 5 people own it, that that person will take greater pride and care with the ladder. However the usage would remain the same.

Now I don't agree with Aristotle on all of his points, especially being a girl... but I do think his mode of development theory is rather fascinating especially when compared to the ideas of primitive communism. In the ideas of primitive communism, hunter gatherers had communist societies and that this is the natural tendency of humans rather than the more superficial mode of capitalism. But is communism really the natural tendency of humans or is it the natural tendency to establish households and then cities in this concept of the political animal?

Or is it more mixed as Aristotle has divided human behaviour by how they obtain their food?

Finally, I would rather we not discuss all of Aristotle's concepts or attack Aristotle for holding certain views since it is not really related to what is the natural tendency of man. Although such a discussion on Aristotle would be fascinating... I feel that discussion is for a different conversation.
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Marxist-Leninist Germany
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Postby Marxist-Leninist Germany » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:19 pm

Well perhaps partially, as homo sapiens are a social animal by nature, but there are other aspects of human nature that conflict with communistic tenants.
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Greater Weselton
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Postby Greater Weselton » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:19 pm

Communism can't be a natural tendency since it goes against God.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:24 pm

Marxist-Leninist Germany wrote:Well perhaps partially, as homo sapiens are a social animal by nature, but there are other aspects of human nature that conflict with communistic tenants.

Huh, very well put actually. Quite verbosely as well. I agree.


Greater Weselton wrote:Communism can't be a natural tendency since it goes against God.

The two first post in this thread contain such great contrast.

You're almost adorable.
Last edited by Esternial on Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Quilavaland
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Postby Quilavaland » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:25 pm

No, it's not a natural tendency, just look at the USSR, it almost straight away stopped being Communist. Humans are just naturally corrupt, a system like Communism can't work with humans.

Could be natural for Quilavas though? XD Though Quilavaland is Ecoist and everyone seems to be happy with that so maybe not.
Last edited by Quilavaland on Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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South Pacific Republic
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Postby South Pacific Republic » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:27 pm

No, human tendency is to hoard everything and to be better than everyone else

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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:27 pm

Marxist-Leninist Germany wrote:Well perhaps partially, as homo sapiens are a social animal by nature, but there are other aspects of human nature that conflict with communistic tenants.

Quilavaland wrote:No, it's not a natural tendency, just look at the USSR, it almost straight away stopped being Communist. Humans are just naturally corrupt, a system like Communism can't work with humans.


Both of these posts actually make very good points and complement each other well. I think rather than taking the trouble to write up my own incoherent ideas from the confused tangle that is my mind I'll just say these pretty much sum it up for me.
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Furry Alairia and Algeria
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Postby Furry Alairia and Algeria » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:28 pm

Greater Weselton wrote:Communism can't be a natural tendency since it goes against God.

So adorable.
Saying something is against god is not a excuse. Come up with a real fucking argument.
And please remember Christian Communism.
Last edited by Furry Alairia and Algeria on Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Need a Name
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Postby Need a Name » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:30 pm

No, it's not...
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Postby Hurdegaryp » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:30 pm

Greater Weselton wrote:Communism can't be a natural tendency since it goes against God.

And since the memetic concept of God goes against nature, I'm not entirely certain what the hell you're trying to say, you happy little Third Reich aficionado.
CVT Temp wrote:I mean, we can actually create a mathematical definition for evolution in terms of the evolutionary algorithm and then write code to deal with abstract instances of evolution, which basically equates to mathematical proof that evolution works. All that remains is to show that biological systems replicate in such a way as to satisfy the minimal criteria required for evolution to apply to them, something which has already been adequately shown time and again. At this point, we've pretty much proven that not only can evolution happen, it pretty much must happen since it's basically impossible to prevent it from happening.

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Postby Asigna » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:30 pm

While it may be a psychological need to feel helpful to a fellow person and cause change in surroundings for the sake of fulfilling self actualization (Malsow's pyramid of needs), the tendency of selfishness for the fulfillment of one's own needs cannot be denied thus, the values of a politician who holds reigns of such absolute power (communist party politicians) are not consistent ideologically and can never be consistent (unless the communist is a robot), he/she may have the tendency to bow to his/her own needs thus when this happens, the communist system grows corrupt and collapses altogether.

The whole point of classlessness disappears when politicians ask for more power for their own selfish ends and thus, another class is created consisting of ruling communist party politicians and regulators of "production" who claim to represent the people. The bourgeois is replaced by the communist party.
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Furry Alairia and Algeria
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Postby Furry Alairia and Algeria » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:31 pm

Hurdegaryp wrote:
Greater Weselton wrote:Communism can't be a natural tendency since it goes against God.

And since the memetic concept of God goes against nature, I'm not entirely certain what the hell you're trying to say, you happy little Third Reich aficionado.

He's a fundamentally fundamentalist Christian, so his arguments are...
not even arguments in the beginning...
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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:33 pm

I would like to state that, in case it is not clear that I do not think sharing everything is really that natural as it leads to greater friction and lesser care as Aristotle states :P
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:33 pm

Furry Alairia and Algeria wrote:
Hurdegaryp wrote:And since the memetic concept of God goes against nature, I'm not entirely certain what the hell you're trying to say, you happy little Third Reich aficionado.

He's a fundamentally fundamentalist Christian, so his arguments are...
not even arguments in the beginning...

Essentially nothing worth taking seriously.

Moving on.
Last edited by Esternial on Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:34 pm

I'm amazed he didn't talk about how Adam and Eve :P

In any case... was hoping for at least some communists to debate this!
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Postby Hurdegaryp » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:35 pm

Esternial wrote:
Furry Alairia and Algeria wrote:He's a fundamentally fundamentalist Christian, so his arguments are...
not even arguments in the beginning...

Essentially nothing worth taking seriously.

Moving on.

This thread may have about twenty, thirty pages. After that it will just sink away into oblivion, like thousands of threads before it.
CVT Temp wrote:I mean, we can actually create a mathematical definition for evolution in terms of the evolutionary algorithm and then write code to deal with abstract instances of evolution, which basically equates to mathematical proof that evolution works. All that remains is to show that biological systems replicate in such a way as to satisfy the minimal criteria required for evolution to apply to them, something which has already been adequately shown time and again. At this point, we've pretty much proven that not only can evolution happen, it pretty much must happen since it's basically impossible to prevent it from happening.

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Postby Greater Weselton » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:36 pm

Solorni wrote:I'm amazed he didn't talk about how Adam and Eve :P

In any case... was hoping for at least some communists to debate this!

That would lead to an evolution debate.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:37 pm

Hurdegaryp wrote:
Esternial wrote:Essentially nothing worth taking seriously.

Moving on.

This thread may have about twenty, thirty pages. After that it will just sink away into oblivion, like thousands of threads before it.

Why are we really here, really?

What is the point of all this?

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Fjormark
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Postby Fjormark » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:42 pm

I don't think communism is a 'natural' human tendency, especially since nobody really likes to share property and want some privacy. Private property is a nature human tendency and right, however, I respect the idea that public buildings and services should be owned by a government entity/business of some sort to ensure that the buildings and services are maintained; if we left anything for public use, you could easily see the degredation of quality and lack of care for it until someone cleans it up and maintains it.

Communism at it's core just isn't compatible with the human nature of selfishness, not all of us can be saints.

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Postby Hurdegaryp » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:44 pm

Esternial wrote:
Hurdegaryp wrote:This thread may have about twenty, thirty pages. After that it will just sink away into oblivion, like thousands of threads before it.

Why are we really here, really?

What is the point of all this?

Oh, that's simple. To make sure this forum stays profitable.
CVT Temp wrote:I mean, we can actually create a mathematical definition for evolution in terms of the evolutionary algorithm and then write code to deal with abstract instances of evolution, which basically equates to mathematical proof that evolution works. All that remains is to show that biological systems replicate in such a way as to satisfy the minimal criteria required for evolution to apply to them, something which has already been adequately shown time and again. At this point, we've pretty much proven that not only can evolution happen, it pretty much must happen since it's basically impossible to prevent it from happening.

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Fratermonia
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Postby Fratermonia » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:48 pm

I would say that yearning for what is effectively end-stage communism is very much an observable tendency of humanity. Almost every revolution is surrounded by the rhetoric of equality, freedom and the fight against oppression. Communism is the culmination of all three. The issue is that this has not been economically feasible and most revolutions ended up being hijacked by the middle class (as in not the rulers but also not peasants). With the current increasingly advanced economy and increasingly decimated middle class, things may change.
Last edited by Fratermonia on Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Scyobayrynn
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Postby Scyobayrynn » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:50 pm

Not a natural tendency.
Natural is I do X work you do Y work.
In terms of productivity X>Y
Therefore I am entitled to more of the product than the person who did Y work.

Now lets say person A is doing work for the good of the community and so is person B.

We are promised fair shares

Person A does X amount of work, and person B does Y amount.

Now since the product is being dispersed among the community, A and B can get all the fruits of their work, but person A should be entitled to a large share than person B because person did more Work.

At this point I will confess Ive never had communism explained to me in a way I fully understand it.

So if communism meters our shares based on the productivity of people in addition to disperse product to ensure all are cared for -- please correct me.
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Postby Arkolon » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:51 pm

Altruism was already hard to justify from an evolutionary psychological point of view, and propertarianism has always been used for advancement of hypogamy and social stratification in mate selection, which totally rules out communism for being natural tendency. Statelessness is, however, natural tendency, up until we reach mass society. Mass society that requires statism can be described as any population group larger than what our neocortex may allow for personal relationships, so 150 humans and above.
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Fjormark
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Postby Fjormark » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:55 pm

Arkolon wrote:Altruism was already hard to justify from an evolutionary psychological point of view, and propertarianism has always been used for advancement of hypogamy and social stratification in mate selection, which totally rules out communism for being natural tendency. Statelessness is, however, natural tendency, up until we reach mass society. Mass society that requires statism can be described as any population group larger than what our neocortex may allow for personal relationships, so 150 humans and above.

Very nicely put.

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Scyobayrynn
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Postby Scyobayrynn » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:58 pm

Arkolon wrote:Altruism was already hard to justify from an evolutionary psychological point of view, and propertarianism has always been used for advancement of hypogamy and social stratification in mate selection, which totally rules out communism for being natural tendency. Statelessness is, however, natural tendency, up until we reach mass society. Mass society that requires statism can be described as any population group larger than what our neocortex may allow for personal relationships, so 150 humans and above.

I still dont understand communism.
But I understand why it isnt natural now. Brilliantly said sir.
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