NationStates

Welcome, one and all, to a new thread for discussions on all things African. I'm launching this thread to serve as a forum for instant, quick discussion on all African matters. Therefore, I hope this thread becomes a home for my fellow African lovers (and haters too).

RULES

1. NO THREADJACKING: In order to keep this thread moving, new topics will be brought up periodically. Kindly stick to what your fellow debaters are talking about.

2. NO UNPLEASANTNESS: Kindly refrain from cussing each other out. Insults put in a jocular and/or witty manner are perfectly fine, but don't swear at each other incessantly.

In addition to these, all general NS rules apply.


At the end of every week, I will personally select a debater to be chosen to receive the "Debater of the week award". This prestigious award will convey to people around you a sense of your skill, etc, etc.

Lastly, thank you to the residents of Genuan rebirth for helping put this together.
Thanks,
Schneidern empire

Our next discussion, I think, will be on South Africa's role in the continent. Good or bad? Growing or failing?

It is great that the various European empires have left africa, it is not so great that they left behind the arbitrary borders they drew up behind. This has resulted in a great deal of ethnic strife.

Terrordome wrote:It is great that the various European empires have left africa, it is not so great that they left behind the arbitrary borders they drew up behind. This has resulted in a great deal of ethnic strife.

I think that Africa was too quick to push out the Europeans. Many of those countries were not ready for independence, and it's led to a lot of violence and genocide.

Schneidern empire wrote:

Terrordome wrote:It is great that the various European empires have left africa, it is not so great that they left behind the arbitrary borders they drew up behind. This has resulted in a great deal of ethnic strife.

I think that Africa was too quick to push out the Europeans. Many of those countries were not ready for independence, and it's led to a lot of violence and genocide.

What is the criteria for a country being ready for independence?

Colonialism screwed over Africa, and the leaders they installed when they left Africa severely harmed many African nations. They also drew boundaries in horrible areas, causing ethnic strife. Many of Africa's problems were caused by colonialism.

Patriarch wrote:

Schneidern empire wrote:

I think that Africa was too quick to push out the Europeans. Many of those countries were not ready for independence, and it's led to a lot of violence and genocide.

What is the criteria for a country being ready for independence?

In my opinion.

1. A developed national economy.

2. A well built up human development factor.

3. A clearly resolved solution to all ethnic tension.

As well as governance by an international body for a few years to train new leaders and skilled people, monitor the change over process and offer guidance and council to the new state until it is fully ready to rule by itself.

Schneidern empire wrote:

Terrordome wrote:It is great that the various European empires have left africa, it is not so great that they left behind the arbitrary borders they drew up behind. This has resulted in a great deal of ethnic strife.

I think that Africa was too quick to push out the Europeans. Many of those countries were not ready for independence, and it's led to a lot of violence and genocide.

I mostly disagree. The root cause of the post independance conflicts in Africa is mostly due to the effects of colonialism. Native Africans were denied a decent education, were forced by poverty and famine into swelling hives of disease like leopoldville/Kinshasa to work as cheap labour, found ancient communities and kingdoms split by arbitrary borders and were left with an infrastructure purely geared to remove resources for shipment to europe. It is hard to overestimate the mess that a lot of African countries were handed on independance. In places like the Congo it resulted in a perfect storm of ambition, ethnic discord and poverty to create some of last centuries most bloody conflicts.

Some colonies did land on their feet a bit better, such as Ghana which had a relatively more educated and skilled population than most other countries, but i still disagree than any further European influence could of had any beneficial outcomes. Foriegn interferance, like the cold war by proxy battles in Angola and Mozambique, merely served to deepen and worsen the conflicts.

Terrordome wrote:

Schneidern empire wrote:

I think that Africa was too quick to push out the Europeans. Many of those countries were not ready for independence, and it's led to a lot of violence and genocide.

I mostly disagree. The root cause of the post independance conflicts in Africa is mostly due to the effects of colonialism. Native Africans were denied a decent education, were forced by poverty and famine into swelling hives of disease like leopoldville/Kinshasa to work as cheap labour, found ancient communities and kingdoms split by arbitrary borders and were left with an infrastructure purely geared to remove resources for shipment to europe. It is hard to overestimate the mess that a lot of African countries were handed on independance. In places like the Congo it resulted in a perfect storm of ambition, ethnic discord and poverty to create some of last centuries most bloody conflicts.

Some colonies did land on their feet a bit better, such as Ghana which had a relatively more educated and skilled population than most other countries, but i still disagree than any further European influence could of had any beneficial outcomes. Foriegn interferance, like the cold war by proxy battles in Angola and Mozambique, merely served to deepen and worsen the conflicts.

I agree with you about the Cold War, but I still think that instead of just pushing the Europeans out, they could have gradually demanded concessions, or get an international mediator in to grant independence readiness in shortest time, without undermining the entire political system and economy.

Case in point: South Africa.

Africa should be united in one country with one religion. Islam should do.

Schneidern empire wrote:

Terrordome wrote:
I mostly disagree. The root cause of the post independance conflicts in Africa is mostly due to the effects of colonialism. Native Africans were denied a decent education, were forced by poverty and famine into swelling hives of disease like leopoldville/Kinshasa to work as cheap labour, found ancient communities and kingdoms split by arbitrary borders and were left with an infrastructure purely geared to remove resources for shipment to europe. It is hard to overestimate the mess that a lot of African countries were handed on independance. In places like the Congo it resulted in a perfect storm of ambition, ethnic discord and poverty to create some of last centuries most bloody conflicts.

Some colonies did land on their feet a bit better, such as Ghana which had a relatively more educated and skilled population than most other countries, but i still disagree than any further European influence could of had any beneficial outcomes. Foriegn interferance, like the cold war by proxy battles in Angola and Mozambique, merely served to deepen and worsen the conflicts.

I agree with you about the Cold War, but I still think that instead of just pushing the Europeans out, they could have gradually demanded concessions, or get an international mediator in to grant independence readiness in shortest time, without undermining the entire political system and economy.

Case in point: South Africa.

When the Europeans tried to stick around, like Portugal did in Angola, Mozambique and Guinea-Bissau (until 1974!!) it ended up so so much worse.

Czechanada wrote:Africa should be united in one country with one religion. Islam should do.

Words cannot begin to describe the level of your incompetence.

Terrordome wrote:

Schneidern empire wrote:

I agree with you about the Cold War, but I still think that instead of just pushing the Europeans out, they could have gradually demanded concessions, or get an international mediator in to grant independence readiness in shortest time, without undermining the entire political system and economy.

Case in point: South Africa.

When the Europeans tried to stick around, like Portugal did in Angola, Mozambique and Guinea-Bissau (until 1974!!) it ended up so so much worse.

Portugal wanted to retain sovereignty for too long. They should have been pressured by the rest of the world to allow the natives freedom, while slowly withdrawing from the country, filling up their spots with well trained Africans, rather than just dropping them and running.

Czechanada wrote:Africa should be united in one country with one religion. Islam should do.

...
That would be a good idea... except that there are too many different cultures/languages and religions to have true unity
How about an African-Style European Union?

Well I've got some fondness for the old Rhodesia and South Africa, but I can't say I care much about Africa outside of Ancient Egypt (the Ancient Egyptians weren't black by the way).

However, I do love the irony in the foundation Liberia, as the black, ex-American slaves who colonized it ended up enslaving the locals.

Schneidern empire wrote:I guess I'll start the debates. So, NSG, do you think that the withdrawal of colonies has been a good thing or a bad thing for Africa?

Good and bad. Good because the nations are now independent from Western Rule, free to do what they wish with their own government.
Bad because they were practically torn off of the European teat, resulting in a collapse of prosperity. Much of Africa is underdeveloped and poor.

Vista Major wrote:

Czechanada wrote:Africa should be united in one country with one religion. Islam should do.

...
That would be a good idea... except that there are too many different cultures/languages and religions to have true unity
How about an African-Style European Union?

There is a African Union, but is plagued by the fact that it is not very respected, and it doesn't have a lot of real power.

Fortschritte wrote:Colonialism screwed over Africa, and the leaders they installed when they left Africa severely harmed many African nations. They also drew boundaries in horrible areas, causing ethnic strife. Many of Africa's problems were caused by colonialism.

This.

Many of the ethnic conflicts in Sudan and Rwanda can be directly linked to the interference and administration of the Europeans. Not to mention the diseases, the monopolistic trade practices, the slavery, exploitation, massacres and extraction of precious resources.

Colonialism was the best thing to happen to Africa in the long run, the jungle was cut down and infrastructure was built and in exchange the occupying powers got the use of some natural resources. I think it is a shame that decolonization happened, but I think it will enjoy a limited revival depending on how China conducts its business with African nations.

I would say the effects of colonialism were a mix of good and bad. The technology that the colonialists brought in and the infrastructure that they built was good. The oppression that came with it, not so much. There were a lot of places where the transition to independence was handled badly, and that is one source of political problems -- but I don't think that is the only reason why there are dysfunctional governments and ethnic strife in Africa. It's not as if Africa had a tradition of stable and prosperous democratic nations before the colonialists showed up.

The withdrawal of colonies helped the companies who now distribute the 'humanitarian aid'. It hurt everybody else.

The withdrawal's results were far from ideal, but I believe that it's better to have free, independent African nations than colonized ones.

What do you guys think about China's attempts to become Africa's new "colonial" overlord? China is going after Africa's resources like crazy.

I spent a month in rural Tanzania some years ago; I visited a few schools and was very taken aback at how hard working and earnest many of the children (and adults) in the schools were. I often wonder if in the future, Tanzania will be renowned for its education system and intellectuals.

Another thing I'll say is that I think pan-African unionism/nationalism is a show for foreigners.

Nortrom wrote:The withdrawal's results were far from ideal, but I believe that it's better to have free, independent African nations than colonized ones.

What do you guys think about China's attempts to become Africa's new "colonial" overlord? China is going after Africa's resources like crazy.

It is just sad. It seems now that African resources are never going to be owned by Africans. Someone else is always getting all the benefit of Africas resources while not putting nearly enough back in, like Shell, Rio Tinto and new a huge slew of chinese companies, exploiting and extracting all of Africas resources like oil uranium, gold, diamonds and a whole load of expensive stuff. In exchange Africa gets low paid mining jobs (complete with a massacre or two if you dare to ask for a tiny crumb more of the huge expoitation pie) and a a load of wealthy politicians with lots of dirty money thrown at them by huge multinational corporations.

Saiwania wrote:Colonialism was the best thing to happen to Africa in the long run, the jungle was cut down and infrastructure was built and in exchange the occupying powers got the use of some natural resources. I think it is a shame that decolonization happened, but I think it will enjoy a limited revival depending on how China conducts its business with African nations.

Also racism, subjugation, destruction of ethnic borders, dehumanization of Africans. What the hell did Africans get out of that, huh?

"The jungle was cut down". How ignorant. I didn't know that Libya and Namibia are jungle nations....