NATION

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Atheism vs. Christianity

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Warpspace
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Founded: Aug 02, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Warpspace » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 pm

Western-Ukraine wrote:
Risottia wrote:Now prove it. Prove that sacrifice actually happened. Prove that "saved humankind". No, written words in books aren't proof.


Again, you're mistaking confidence in a deity with confidence in oneself. Unless you're claiming to be your own deity.


Then you do not know for sure.

QED.

If no written words in books are proofs then how can you believe anything?


Yes. It's written in a book where the initial text was written centuries after the events they documented, then finally compiled further centuries later, constantly edited and warped by the Church to meet their own ends during the Medieval Age, and is not verifiable.

Plus by College paper standards, the Bible isn't even a primary source of information, due to the time it was written and the severe bias in it, it would qualify as a tertiary source for a paper to cite historical events- IE shit.

Oh, and "IT'S IN THE BOOK111!!!" isn't evidence of shit. In fact, it can't even be used to prove anything given that it cannot be verified and does not follow the Scientific Method. Simply because the Bible says something is so gives not even the slightest damn reason to trust a single sentence in it for anything, at all. Not to mention your double standards are fucking hilarious, because if everything in the Bible is true, then the same should be true for the Torah, Koran, and other holy texts of other religions.

See again as I cite Christianity being hilariously self centered, vain, and annoyingly self righteous.
If we affirm one moment, we thus affirm not only ourselves but all existence. For nothing is self-sufficient, neither in us ourselves nor in things; and if our soul has trembled with happiness and sounded like a harp string just once, all eternity was needed to produce this one event—and in this single moment of affirmation all eternity was called good, redeemed, justified, and affirmed.
- Friedrich Nietzsche -


I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith.

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The Union of Tentacles and Grapes
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Founded: Sep 22, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Union of Tentacles and Grapes » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:57 pm

Totus Plebeium wrote:
The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:Which is about hipocrisy, not who should follow laws. It's basically another let he who has no sin cast the first stone.
And:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commandsc and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19

And Jesus was speaking to the Jews not gentiles. Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes"
"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God." (Rom. 7:4).
"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Rom. 7:6).

Of course Jesus hasn't abolished the Law as he said "i have come to fulfill them" he is the replacement for the Law.

Edit: Also relevant: "all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law." (Rom. 2:12).
"Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." (Rom. 3:19-20).
"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'" (Gal. 3:10).

Same passage:
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Does this not apply to christians, then? Or was he just walking to jews?

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB
"Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Seems like that jesus fellow is saying that those old rules still apply.

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The Cobalt Sky
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Founded: Jul 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Cobalt Sky » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:00 pm

Menassa wrote:
The Cobalt Sky wrote:No I mean that is not obsolete?

I don't know, I'm not Christian.

Oh. Never mind, then.
Last edited by The Cobalt Sky on Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Totus Plebeium
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Founded: Nov 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Totus Plebeium » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:15 pm

The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:
Totus Plebeium wrote:And Jesus was speaking to the Jews not gentiles. Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes"
"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God." (Rom. 7:4).
"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Rom. 7:6).

Of course Jesus hasn't abolished the Law as he said "i have come to fulfill them" he is the replacement for the Law.

Edit: Also relevant: "all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law." (Rom. 2:12).
"Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." (Rom. 3:19-20).
"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'" (Gal. 3:10).

Same passage:
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Does this not apply to christians, then? Or was he just walking to jews?

Christians yes, gentile Christians probably not. There probably is reward for gentiles who do the same but his first priority was to the Jews first.
"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB
"Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Seems like that jesus fellow is saying that those old rules still apply.

About Mark, he was speaking of the Hypocritical Pharisees about how they don't follow the Law...Mark 7:6-14
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[a]
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[b] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[c] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[d] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”


And Concerning Matthew.... it says the exact same thing....Matthew 15:1-13
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
Last edited by Totus Plebeium on Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Cracher en l'air ca va tomber sur le nez"

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The Union of Tentacles and Grapes
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Founded: Sep 22, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Union of Tentacles and Grapes » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:26 pm

Totus Plebeium wrote:
The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:Same passage:
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Does this not apply to christians, then? Or was he just walking to jews?

Christians yes, gentile Christians probably not. His first priority was to the Jews first
"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB
"Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Seems like that jesus fellow is saying that those old rules still apply.

About Mark, he was speaking of the Hypocritical Pharisees about how they don't follow the Law...Mark 7:6-14
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[a]
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[b] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[c] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[d] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”


And Concerning Matthew.... it says the exact same thing....Matthew 15:1-13
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.

But that is EVERYONE that jesus was supposed to have talked to. If it applies only to them, then, really, NOBODY has to follow any rules at all. The ten(and twenty seven, and eleven, and second ten, etc.) commandments can be thrown out, prohibitions against adultery can be thrown out, and nobody can claim that being gay is a sin because "jesus wasn't talking to the gays!". But, once again, EVERYTHING you are saying is in direct contradition to the one about not one iota of the law being rescinded.

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Totus Plebeium
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Ex-Nation

Postby Totus Plebeium » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:31 pm

The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:
Totus Plebeium wrote:Christians yes, gentile Christians probably not. His first priority was to the Jews first

About Mark, he was speaking of the Hypocritical Pharisees about how they don't follow the Law...Mark 7:6-14
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[a]
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[b] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[c] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[d] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”


And Concerning Matthew.... it says the exact same thing....Matthew 15:1-13
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.

But that is EVERYONE that jesus was supposed to have talked to. If it applies only to them, then, really, NOBODY has to follow any rules at all. The ten(and twenty seven, and eleven, and second ten, etc.) commandments can be thrown out, prohibitions against adultery can be thrown out, and nobody can claim that being gay is a sin because "jesus wasn't talking to the gays!". But, once again, EVERYTHING you are saying is in direct contradition to the one about not one iota of the law being rescinded.

The commandments were included into Christian doctrine as morals (Also noahide laws; laws of gentiles). Nobody has to follow those rules, but its encouraged. You do know i'm not a fundamentalist right? Anyone can be saved, no matter the gravity of what they do. Now Paul the Vicar of Christ did preach to the gentiles as well as the other apostles, they represented Christ, gentiles can sin but its not causation for damnation.
Last edited by Totus Plebeium on Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Cracher en l'air ca va tomber sur le nez"

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:38 pm

Totus Plebeium wrote:
The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:Same passage:
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Does this not apply to christians, then? Or was he just walking to jews?

Christians yes, gentile Christians probably not. There probably is reward for gentiles who do the same but his first priority was to the Jews first.
"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB
"Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Seems like that jesus fellow is saying that those old rules still apply.

About Mark, he was speaking of the Hypocritical Pharisees about how they don't follow the Law...Mark 7:6-14
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[a]
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[b] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[c] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[d] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”


And Concerning Matthew.... it says the exact same thing....Matthew 15:1-13
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.

Eh... Jesus said some conflicting things about the Pharisees.

Matthew 23:2-3
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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The Union of Tentacles and Grapes
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Founded: Sep 22, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Union of Tentacles and Grapes » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:42 pm

Totus Plebeium wrote:
The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:But that is EVERYONE that jesus was supposed to have talked to. If it applies only to them, then, really, NOBODY has to follow any rules at all. The ten(and twenty seven, and eleven, and second ten, etc.) commandments can be thrown out, prohibitions against adultery can be thrown out, and nobody can claim that being gay is a sin because "jesus wasn't talking to the gays!". But, once again, EVERYTHING you are saying is in direct contradition to the one about not one iota of the law being rescinded.

The commandments were included into Christian doctrine as morals (Also noahide laws; laws of gentiles). Nobody has to follow those rules, but its encouraged. You do know i'm not a fundamentalist right? Anyone can be saved, no matter the gravity of what they do. Now Paul the Vicar of Christ did preach to the gentiles as well as the other apostles, they represented Christ, gentiles can sin but its not causation for damnation.

And yet jesus said that ALL the laws are still in effect. You still haven't actually dealt with that. There are no christians in the bible. Everyone is a jew or gentile, and he tells everybody to follow the old laws(and intermittently tells them not to, but that's just icing on the cake for atheists)

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Totus Plebeium
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Postby Totus Plebeium » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:48 pm

Menassa wrote:
Totus Plebeium wrote:Christians yes, gentile Christians probably not. There probably is reward for gentiles who do the same but his first priority was to the Jews first.

About Mark, he was speaking of the Hypocritical Pharisees about how they don't follow the Law...Mark 7:6-14
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[a]
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[b] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[c] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[d] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”


And Concerning Matthew.... it says the exact same thing....Matthew 15:1-13
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.

Eh... Jesus said some conflicting things about the Pharisees.

Matthew 23:2-3
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.

Matthew 23:1-4
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
"Cracher en l'air ca va tomber sur le nez"

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:50 pm

Totus Plebeium wrote:
Menassa wrote:Eh... Jesus said some conflicting things about the Pharisees.

Matthew 23:2-3
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.

Matthew 23:1-4
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

Indeed, you must follow closely what they say....
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Totus Plebeium
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Founded: Nov 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Totus Plebeium » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:52 pm

The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:
Totus Plebeium wrote:The commandments were included into Christian doctrine as morals (Also noahide laws; laws of gentiles). Nobody has to follow those rules, but its encouraged. You do know i'm not a fundamentalist right? Anyone can be saved, no matter the gravity of what they do. Now Paul the Vicar of Christ did preach to the gentiles as well as the other apostles, they represented Christ, gentiles can sin but its not causation for damnation.

And yet jesus said that ALL the laws are still in effect. You still haven't actually dealt with that. There are no christians in the bible. Everyone is a jew or gentile, and he tells everybody to follow the old laws(and intermittently tells them not to, but that's just icing on the cake for atheists)

Sorry my edit hadn't come to you in time on my other post.
Of course Jesus hasn't abolished the Law as he said "i have come to fulfill them" he is the replacement for the Law. If he would have abolished the Law and the Prophets he rebukes his claim at being the Messiah and also rebukes the claim as to why he came in the first place. He had so people wouldn't have to follow the Law for the reason of following the Law. He is not claiming to keep following the Law otherwise his death would be meaningless, He, by not abolishing, is reaffirming his place as the Messiah in scripture (though debatable but not the topic in question)


that's just icing on the cake for atheists

It's really not... but nice try though
Last edited by Totus Plebeium on Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ex-Nation

Postby Totus Plebeium » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:55 pm

Menassa wrote:
Totus Plebeium wrote:Matthew 23:1-4
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

Indeed, you must follow closely what they say....

Yes, he was regarding the hypocrisy of their actions.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:51 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
What sacrifice would that be ? Being resurrected after 3 days, becoming immortal and the right hand man of the ruler of the universe, helping all your loved ones AND making sure you get worshipped for at least two thousand years in exchange for a standard execution seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.


As much as I think Jesus was a nice, if complex, guy, I think the fact people focus on the Passion just fucks Christianity right in the ass.

God knows how many millions of people before Jesus were murdered in such a horrible way and nobody gave a fuck about them.


Heck, firemen die in more gruesome ways almost daily to save kittens. And yet we do not build churches for them.

Still, this is understandable. Jesus:
a. brokered a good deal for his painful death
b. actually managed to keep his side of the bargain - which is quite impressive. "Being tortured in exchange for immortaility, almost ultimate power and the saving of your loved ones" does look good on paper, but I estimate that when it comes down to it many people would give up when the nails are actually being hammered in.

So admiring him for his skill at negotiating and willpower makes sense. But acting like his sacrifice was utterly unique and special and more than any other human would do is just silly and hypocritical - and, as already shown, obviously wrong.
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Risottia » Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:05 am

Western-Ukraine wrote:
Risottia wrote:Now prove it. Prove that sacrifice actually happened. Prove that "saved humankind". No, written words in books aren't proof.


Again, you're mistaking confidence in a deity with confidence in oneself. Unless you're claiming to be your own deity.


Then you do not know for sure.

QED.

If no written words in books are proofs then how can you believe anything?

Exactly.
Then again, why do you need to believe? And I'm not asking "what for".
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Postby Risottia » Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:06 am

Republica Independiente de Magallanes wrote:The people need to believe in something. Believing in your nation and working towards creating a better state for your community should be enough to know you are doing the right thing.

WHY?
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Universal World » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:19 pm

You know, the double standard to this argument could be this: atheists, prove that there is no God. How exactly? Well, first off, you can't site evolution because that is almost unrelated to God. Who's to say God didn't create man by evolution? Second, don't site the Big Bang theory, same reason why you can't site evolution. Third, don't say "Well I can't see him!" What are we, six year olds? I can't see your brain, so does it exist? Can we see cells with our bare eyes? Of course not, we need a microscope to see them, and this microscope is prayer. I ask you not to believe in Christ, or Muhammad, or anybody. But what I ask you is to just try, I mean really try to connect with God. Whether you believe in him or not, just try to pray once. I don't care if you see it as pointless, or stupid, maybe even primitive, but would it hurt anything to just try? It's up to you, and I assure you, I will do the opposite. If you pray, I will rethink my faith. It doesn't matter what you choose to do afterward, as long as you just try to see him.
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cresilia » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:32 pm

Why does atheism need to "versus" Christianity? Christianity does not need to define itself in relation to atheism. Why do atheists need to define themselves in relation to religion (ie Christianity and all the rest)?
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Postby Menassa » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:37 pm

Cresilia wrote:Why does atheism need to "versus" Christianity? Christianity does not need to define itself in relation to atheism. Why do atheists need to define themselves in relation to religion (ie Christianity and all the rest)?

Well atheism defines itself in relation to theism... but I think the OP might believe theism = Christianity.
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Postby The Union of Tentacles and Grapes » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:11 pm

Cresilia wrote:Why does atheism need to "versus" Christianity? Christianity does not need to define itself in relation to atheism. Why do atheists need to define themselves in relation to religion (ie Christianity and all the rest)?

the OP lives in a country where christianity is interchangeable with religion, and all other religions are literally denounced as satanic, devil worship, witchcraft, pagan barbarism, etc.

That climate ensures that the discourse is always in that form.

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Ex-Nation

Postby Warpspace » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:22 am

The Universal World wrote:You know, the double standard to this argument could be this: atheists, prove that there is no God. How exactly? Well, first off, you can't site evolution because that is almost unrelated to God. Who's to say God didn't create man by evolution? Second, don't site the Big Bang theory, same reason why you can't site evolution. Third, don't say "Well I can't see him!" What are we, six year olds? I can't see your brain, so does it exist? Can we see cells with our bare eyes? Of course not, we need a microscope to see them, and this microscope is prayer. I ask you not to believe in Christ, or Muhammad, or anybody. But what I ask you is to just try, I mean really try to connect with God. Whether you believe in him or not, just try to pray once. I don't care if you see it as pointless, or stupid, maybe even primitive, but would it hurt anything to just try? It's up to you, and I assure you, I will do the opposite. If you pray, I will rethink my faith. It doesn't matter what you choose to do afterward, as long as you just try to see him.


It's called Russell's Teapot.

Unless it has been proven by the scientific method through experimentation and peer review, it's default status is false. We have no reason to prove a negative, it is up to you to prove its existence in the first place.

EDIT

And I already have tried superstitious practices as a child and I kicked it by twelve when I realized that there was no difference between Santa Claus and Yahweh. Neither has any evidence to provide for any remote reason to even consider their existence for a second. The very nature of religion is its downfall and futility. You should not need to believe in anything, belief itself is inherently flawed as the very term implies a lack of factual evidence- IE knowing.

And please do not compare primitive superstitious practices without an ounce of credible evidence to their name to actual legitimate, logical processes of thought.
Last edited by Warpspace on Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Risottia » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:54 am

Cresilia wrote:Why does atheism need to "versus" Christianity? Christianity does not need to define itself in relation to atheism.

No, it defines itself in relation to polytheism by being quasi-atheism.

Why do atheists need to define themselves in relation to religion (ie Christianity and all the rest)?

Because a-theism means exactly "non theism". And no, "theism" doesn't cover all kinds of religion, only the ones with one or more deities.
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Postby Risottia » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:55 am

Menassa wrote:
Cresilia wrote:Why does atheism need to "versus" Christianity? Christianity does not need to define itself in relation to atheism. Why do atheists need to define themselves in relation to religion (ie Christianity and all the rest)?

Well atheism defines itself in relation to theism... but I think the OP might believe theism = Christianity.

Then again, we're on a site populated mostly by Western posters, and in the Western world Christianity is to religion as Coca-Cola is to sodas.
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Ex-Nation

Postby Bataviria » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:56 am

Oh look, it's this endless discussion again.

Islam wins
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Postby Immoren » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:05 am

Bataviria wrote:Oh look, it's this endless discussion again.

Islam wins


Obviosly imm-correctly correct aswer is Discordianism.
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Ex-Nation

Postby Bataviria » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:06 am

Immoren wrote:
Bataviria wrote:Oh look, it's this endless discussion again.

Islam wins


Obviosly imm-correctly correct aswer is Discordianism.


Unfortinatly imm-correctness is not the objective truth
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