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Transyl
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Postby Transyl » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:07 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Transyl wrote:You know there are different types of Atheism right?


... Yes, we know. Which is why your sister being one kind of atheist is anecdotal and, therefore, we don't really have to take it into consideration, especially now that you're being arrogant about this.

I don't see how I'm being arrogant, all I was doing was stating a point. Nothing arrogant about that. And I never said you had to take it into consideration.
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Nervium
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Postby Nervium » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:43 pm

What about Christian atheists?
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:45 pm

Nervium wrote:What about Christian atheists?


I wonder if I count as one...

Ah, who fucking cares. And honestly, my disgust with Christianity has made the word "Christian" sound insulting when directed towards me, so even if I were, I would be insulted if someone referred to me as a Christian either way.

So, forget I brought it up. :?
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:46 pm

Nervium wrote:What about Christian atheists?


What about them ? They are very obviously atheists - they do not believe in God, they just believe that the teachings of Jesus have some merit even without all the heaven, damnation etc. bits.
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The Greater Lebanon
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Postby The Greater Lebanon » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:48 pm

here is my question, where I come from we are from one of the oldest lands of Christianity historically speaking. Why do many Christians in the large region get massacred and killed even though they are innocent? Why do babies who have not even lived over a year get murdered by scumbag terrorists? Even for non christians why do many innocent people die at the hands of evil if God loves us all? Why do we pray to God for protection and safety of our family if many are killed. People speak of individual instances where they can thank God for their lives but what of the others who did the same and died? If its Free-will then God has been created little play toys to kill each other ect..? I am itching for an answer that will convince me. I have asked many religious people on this but they the same stuff they teach you in school.

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The Union of Tentacles and Grapes
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Postby The Union of Tentacles and Grapes » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:04 pm

Nervium wrote:What about Christian atheists?

They're almost certainly not.

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Schneidern empire
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Postby Schneidern empire » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:30 pm

The Greater Lebanon wrote:here is my question, where I come from we are from one of the oldest lands of Christianity historically speaking. Why do many Christians in the large region get massacred and killed even though they are innocent? Why do babies who have not even lived over a year get murdered by scumbag terrorists? Even for non christians why do many innocent people die at the hands of evil if God loves us all? Why do we pray to God for protection and safety of our family if many are killed. People speak of individual instances where they can thank God for their lives but what of the others who did the same and died? If its Free-will then God has been created little play toys to kill each other ect..? I am itching for an answer that will convince me. I have asked many religious people on this but they the same stuff they teach you in school.



Unfortunately, there is no clear cut answer. Many biblical verses state that just because you're Christian, it doesn't mean you will automatically be protected from all harm. After all, the point of faith is belief, and it's easy to believe when things are going well. The true test is when there are hard times in life. Besides that, we can't see the big picture.

I'm reminded of a story of a woman who's son was murdered by a lone gunman in a park. For years, she was bitter, angry and resentful. But after many nights of prayer, she went to the jail and visited the man. She said she forgave him, and she prepared to leave. But the man asked how? How could she achieve peace and forgive him of this heinous crime. She explained about her faith, and after that she visited the man weekly, and he became a Christian too. When he was released from jail, he married, and eventually died, a happy, peaceful old man. It's my personal belief that sometimes things happen, and we can't understand why. But, we have to hold out hope that one day it'll be explained to us. We can't see the bigger picture.

Of course, whether you are a believer or not is up to you. All religion is a choice after all. I myself consider myself a Christian Scientist, so this is not even really my area of expertise. But I hope you found this insightful and help in your time of trouble.
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The Union of Tentacles and Grapes
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Postby The Union of Tentacles and Grapes » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:46 pm

Schneidern empire wrote:
The Greater Lebanon wrote:here is my question, where I come from we are from one of the oldest lands of Christianity historically speaking. Why do many Christians in the large region get massacred and killed even though they are innocent? Why do babies who have not even lived over a year get murdered by scumbag terrorists? Even for non christians why do many innocent people die at the hands of evil if God loves us all? Why do we pray to God for protection and safety of our family if many are killed. People speak of individual instances where they can thank God for their lives but what of the others who did the same and died? If its Free-will then God has been created little play toys to kill each other ect..? I am itching for an answer that will convince me. I have asked many religious people on this but they the same stuff they teach you in school.



Unfortunately, there is no clear cut answer. Many biblical verses state that just because you're Christian, it doesn't mean you will automatically be protected from all harm. After all, the point of faith is belief, and it's easy to believe when things are going well. The true test is when there are hard times in life. Besides that, we can't see the big picture.

I'm reminded of a story of a woman who's son was murdered by a lone gunman in a park. For years, she was bitter, angry and resentful. But after many nights of prayer, she went to the jail and visited the man. She said she forgave him, and she prepared to leave. But the man asked how? How could she achieve peace and forgive him of this heinous crime. She explained about her faith, and after that she visited the man weekly, and he became a Christian too. When he was released from jail, he married, and eventually died, a happy, peaceful old man. It's my personal belief that sometimes things happen, and we can't understand why. But, we have to hold out hope that one day it'll be explained to us. We can't see the bigger picture.

Of course, whether you are a believer or not is up to you. All religion is a choice after all. I myself consider myself a Christian Scientist, so this is not even really my area of expertise. But I hope you found this insightful and help in your time of trouble.

The capitalization of "scientist" leads me to believe that you are a dangerous cultist that should not be allowed custody of children under any circumstances.

Your anecdote reminds me of how arrogant people can be while claiming humility.

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Schneidern empire
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Postby Schneidern empire » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:52 pm

The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:
Schneidern empire wrote:

Unfortunately, there is no clear cut answer. Many biblical verses state that just because you're Christian, it doesn't mean you will automatically be protected from all harm. After all, the point of faith is belief, and it's easy to believe when things are going well. The true test is when there are hard times in life. Besides that, we can't see the big picture.

I'm reminded of a story of a woman who's son was murdered by a lone gunman in a park. For years, she was bitter, angry and resentful. But after many nights of prayer, she went to the jail and visited the man. She said she forgave him, and she prepared to leave. But the man asked how? How could she achieve peace and forgive him of this heinous crime. She explained about her faith, and after that she visited the man weekly, and he became a Christian too. When he was released from jail, he married, and eventually died, a happy, peaceful old man. It's my personal belief that sometimes things happen, and we can't understand why. But, we have to hold out hope that one day it'll be explained to us. We can't see the bigger picture.

Of course, whether you are a believer or not is up to you. All religion is a choice after all. I myself consider myself a Christian Scientist, so this is not even really my area of expertise. But I hope you found this insightful and help in your time of trouble.

The capitalization of "scientist" leads me to believe that you are a dangerous cultist that should not be allowed custody of children under any circumstances.

Your anecdote reminds me of how arrogant people can be while claiming humility.



The capitalisation of scientist was an unfortunate mistake due to my having typed a paper on Great Scientists, hence my auto correct capitalising the word.

It is also unnecessary to drop insults on me. I twice stated that the story was relevant in my own opinion and even added that others were free to disagree.
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The Union of Tentacles and Grapes
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Postby The Union of Tentacles and Grapes » Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:38 pm

Schneidern empire wrote:
The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:The capitalization of "scientist" leads me to believe that you are a dangerous cultist that should not be allowed custody of children under any circumstances.

Your anecdote reminds me of how arrogant people can be while claiming humility.



The capitalisation of scientist was an unfortunate mistake due to my having typed a paper on Great Scientists, hence my auto correct capitalising the word.

It is also unnecessary to drop insults on me. I twice stated that the story was relevant in my own opinion and even added that others were free to disagree.

I'm very glad that you aren't a danger to children.

Your conclusion of the anecdote reveals the same strangely masochistic arrogance that a great number of christians have. It's an odd kind of anthropocentrism roughly summed up as "I am certainly relevant", which is a load of bullshit. It just gets self-effacing when christians use it to explain various human catastrophes. It is arrogance to believe that you are part of "a bigger picture," or to believe that such a mastermind would ever deign to inform anyone of such a plan. You're pretending to be a helpless pawn, and yet asserting that what happens to you has any meaning at all, and even that you deserve and will eventually claim the knowledge of said plan. You're saying that woman's son was murdered for a good reason, even in admitting you don't know that reason. That is some horrible arrogance.

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Postby Benuty » Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:41 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Nervium wrote:What about Christian atheists?


What about them ? They are very obviously atheists - they do not believe in God, they just believe that the teachings of Jesus have some merit even without all the heaven, damnation etc. bits.

I believe you mean Christologists :P.
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Postby Warpspace » Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:10 pm

Creepoc Infinite wrote:
Transyl wrote:I kind of agree with the fact that you most likely know nothing about religion, and if you do then you just choose to ignore the information and continue with calling them illogical. And you do sound like your narcissistic , due to the fact that you feel like your correct about everything you say and you thinking Atheism is logical. If this isn't arguing, then it must be a debate. And if you really are pissed, just remember you created this discussion.

I am not narcissistic. And I'm tired of everyone calling me that.
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Well I'd hope you'd have greater intelligence then piers. It'd be sad and awkward for a wooden strut to possess more intelligence then any human being.

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Warpspace wrote:

Actually no, this is the ONLY logical way to affirm anything, and is why religion is flawed and inherently weak. Religion immediately falls apart when any form of logical thought processes are applied to it in order to test its potential validity, as it relies entirely on hearsay and belief. Russell's Teapot demands that a negative is not proven false, but the party claiming something PROVES their claim through the scientific method to confirm its existence.

Of course, this can't be done due to the very nature of religion, thereby making it a falsehood by default.



Again Russell is a hack.


Russell isn't a hack, he simply pointed out a crippling flaw in any theistic religion at all.

There's a teapot orbiting Mars. Now prove me wrong. Oh wait, you can't because you can't disprove a negative.

Again, get legitimate evidence to back up the existence of a deity through experimentation or study, then publish a paper on it and let it pass through peer review. Of course, you won't, nor any theist will as there is no actual evidence to support the existence of a god.

Just because something crushes your precious ideology doesn't mean the person behind it is a hack. It means you're butthurt and are attempting to shut out all outside information that could potentially contradict your views.

And as another note, if you can't defend an ideology with a legitimate argument backed up b evidence, chances are that the respective ideology probably isn't worth having in the first place if you can't competently defend it with reason.


Transyl wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
No it isn't. Atheisim is a lack of belief in god, for whatever reason. The afterlife has nothing to do with it. There are people who believe in a afterlife who are still atheists because they lack a belief in a god. Atheism is by definition not theism, so anyone who cannot claim to be a theist is by definition an atheist. That means that babies, comatose people, people who have never heard of god, people who cannot understand what a god is, people who believe in things other then gods (like crystals or rebirth), people who reject a god, people who cannot claim to be a theist because they do not know how to define a god, people who lack belief due to there not being evidence of a god, etc all fall under the umbrella term atheist.

Well then its obvious my cousin who has been an Atheist for 12 years is full of bullshit then right? Because that is the way she thinks of Atheism, I'm just saying what she defines it as. I don't even really care for Atheism, but I accept them until they become ignorant and become narcissistic.


There is no reason to believe your cousin's opinions on any matter are ever correct. "Well my family member that I have no way of providing evidence of their said belief said X" isn't an argument.
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Postby Menassa » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:33 pm

Creepoc Infinite wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
It's funny how you try to foster "thoughtful discussion" on religion, and each time it becomes so evident that you actually know very little on the subject.

I know about Christianity.
As for other religions, I couldn't care less about them.
I don't know much about Islam, nor do I care about Islam.
I don't know about Hinduism nor do I care about it
I don't know anything substantial about any other religion nor do I really care.

I am only interested in Christianity and Judaism because they are the only ones that have any real potential to affect my everyday life.

I am more interested in atheism than all of them and put more thought into atheism than other religions.

The main reason why I don't know much about most religions or care about them is because is don't have the time or patience to. Im 17 years old and I'm focussing more on writing a book and learning about filmmaking.

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The Union of Tentacles and Grapes
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Postby The Union of Tentacles and Grapes » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:17 pm

Negatives CAN be demonstrated. Russel's teapot is a thought experiment to show only how certain claims are intrinsically unscientific and therefore dismissible out of hand. It's all the ad-hoc caveats that are added onto the various god-claims that makes them impossible to demonstrate as false(as well as impossible to demonstrate as true, if not logically impossible or definitionally imaginary).

I can prove that there is no apple in my backpack just by looking in there. If you're positing an invisible apple with no mass and volume, you're inventing a wholly new unfalsifiable garbage claim. There is a difference.

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Postby Greater Weselton » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:55 pm

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Nationes Pii Redivivi
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Postby Nationes Pii Redivivi » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:06 pm

The Christian faith provides, for many people, the eminently useful function of keeping them from falling into nihilism, and, not only that, but as our society, if not a Christian society, is one that is heavily influenced by Christian ideals, having that religion help keep them in line, and make sure that they don't stray too far out from the norm. In addition, it gives them something to do on an idle Sunday, lest they get themselves into some sort of mischief.
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Postby Nationes Pii Redivivi » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:18 pm

Transyl wrote:In a way Atheism and Christianity have no proof to back up what they believe. In fact no religion can actually find good proof of anything they believe, its just not possible unless you have a time machine or were there when it happened, which is not logical in any way. Now I am not saying any religions views are wrong or anything, i'm just saying they have nothing but old documents that could've been fabricated to back them up. It is possible that Christians are correct, or that Atheists are correct, along with any other religion. Further more the only question is, what really happened that created the world, and those that live in it? We may never know. Perhaps there is some proof out there as to what happened, we just haven't found it yet, and until we do religions will continue to argue with each other about who's right and who's wrong. Heck even if we do find proof religions will still argue about it all, even if the proof is standing right in front of them.


As Paul says, the proof is all around us. Can one really look at this world of ours and not doubt that God exist? How can we see a world so full of imperfect designs, suffering, evil, and other pestilence, and not only think, boy, there must be an intelligent and loving God out there, but he especially loves one creature, out of the many on this planet, and, indeed, in the universe?
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Postby Schneidern empire » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:04 am

The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:
Schneidern empire wrote:

The capitalisation of scientist was an unfortunate mistake due to my having typed a paper on Great Scientists, hence my auto correct capitalising the word.

It is also unnecessary to drop insults on me. I twice stated that the story was relevant in my own opinion and even added that others were free to disagree.

I'm very glad that you aren't a danger to children.

Your conclusion of the anecdote reveals the same strangely masochistic arrogance that a great number of christians have. It's an odd kind of anthropocentrism roughly summed up as "I am certainly relevant", which is a load of bullshit. It just gets self-effacing when christians use it to explain various human catastrophes. It is arrogance to believe that you are part of "a bigger picture," or to believe that such a mastermind would ever deign to inform anyone of such a plan. You're pretending to be a helpless pawn, and yet asserting that what happens to you has any meaning at all, and even that you deserve and will eventually claim the knowledge of said plan. You're saying that woman's son was murdered for a good reason, even in admitting you don't know that reason. That is some horrible arrogance.



That is my personal belief, yes. It all boils down to choice. If you believe in God, you realise that he gave everyone freedom of choice. But he outlines the consequences of your choices to you in the Bible. He didn't create us as mindless automatons, but as companions and friends. Therefore, he can't always intervene on someone's behalf, otherwise He compromises his own tenets. I'm sure in my mind that he is deeply saddened about the way the world is now (not the people, the acts). Again, this is my personal opinion.
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The Union of Tentacles and Grapes
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Postby The Union of Tentacles and Grapes » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:35 am

Schneidern empire wrote:
The Union of Tentacles and Grapes wrote:I'm very glad that you aren't a danger to children.

Your conclusion of the anecdote reveals the same strangely masochistic arrogance that a great number of christians have. It's an odd kind of anthropocentrism roughly summed up as "I am certainly relevant", which is a load of bullshit. It just gets self-effacing when christians use it to explain various human catastrophes. It is arrogance to believe that you are part of "a bigger picture," or to believe that such a mastermind would ever deign to inform anyone of such a plan. You're pretending to be a helpless pawn, and yet asserting that what happens to you has any meaning at all, and even that you deserve and will eventually claim the knowledge of said plan. You're saying that woman's son was murdered for a good reason, even in admitting you don't know that reason. That is some horrible arrogance.

That is my personal belief, yes. It all boils down to choice. If you believe in God, you realise that he gave everyone freedom of choice. But he outlines the consequences of your choices to you in the Bible. He didn't create us as mindless automatons, but as companions and friends. Therefore, he can't always intervene on someone's behalf, otherwise He compromises his own tenets. I'm sure in my mind that he is deeply saddened about the way the world is now (not the people, the acts). Again, this is my personal opinion.

You're backpedaling. Now you're saying that there wasn't a plan, and your anecdote is now counterevidence to your claim. Why would a good god let a kid get murdered for no reason?

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Postby Creepoc Infinite » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:55 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Transyl wrote:Well then its obvious my cousin who has been an Atheist for 12 years is full of bullshit then right? Because that is the way she thinks of Atheism, I'm just saying what she defines it as. I don't even really care for Atheism, but I accept them until they become ignorant and become narcissistic.



Full of bullshit? No, just misinformed. Many people improperly define atheism.

I have to agree on this one too.
Atheism is by definition: A lack of belief in god.

We do not believe in god or gods, meaning we lack a belief in them.
If you believe no gods exist, you'd still be atheist because technically, if you believe no gods exist, then would that mean you lack a belief in god also?

An atheist can believe no gods exist, but that would be really irrational and a baseless assumption.
However, atheism is not defined as believing no gods exist. Atheism is defined as a lacks belief in god.
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Postby Distruzio » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:58 am

Nervium wrote:What about Christian atheists?


They make as much sense as national anarchists. There can be a synthesis but it's just so damned confusing and head scratchingly awkward that you can't help but be repulsed by it.
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Creepoc Infinite
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Postby Creepoc Infinite » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:03 am

Nationes Pii Redivivi wrote:The Christian faith provides, for many people, the eminently useful function of keeping them from falling into nihilism, and, not only that, but as our society, if not a Christian society, is one that is heavily influenced by Christian ideals, having that religion help keep them in line, and make sure that they don't stray too far out from the norm. In addition, it gives them something to do on an idle Sunday, lest they get themselves into some sort of mischief.

Lead them away from nihilism?
I'm inclined to believe that Christianity has greater risk of being nihilistic than atheism.

I get this idea from Nietzche's writings (mostly The Antichrist)
If you want me to simplify it here ya go:

Atheism does not define meaning or give us meaning, but it helps us recognize that we only have one life, so live it to the fullest.
Christianity has eternal afterlife promised to its believers, so they can be inclined to waste their lives not caring about what happens to the planet or themselves because it's not about the party, it's about the after party, so to speak.

(Not that this is not true with all Christians, because without a doubt, most Christians still instinctively do not live their lives like they are immortal)

But regardless, the dangerous thing about immortality, the curse of immortality, is that it sucks the life out of life.
If you can never die, then you have all the time in the universe to put off anything. An immortal life is a life or misery, boredom, monotony, and meaninglessness.

Atheists believe in that way less often than Christians do
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Secularism should be implemented everywhere at all times, get god out of politics. Get god away from impressionable children while you're at it.
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Star Wars:http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=328953

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Distruzio
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Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Distruzio » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:06 am

Creepoc Infinite wrote:
Nationes Pii Redivivi wrote:The Christian faith provides, for many people, the eminently useful function of keeping them from falling into nihilism, and, not only that, but as our society, if not a Christian society, is one that is heavily influenced by Christian ideals, having that religion help keep them in line, and make sure that they don't stray too far out from the norm. In addition, it gives them something to do on an idle Sunday, lest they get themselves into some sort of mischief.

Lead them away from nihilism?
I'm inclined to believe that Christianity has greater risk of being nihilistic than atheism.

I get this idea from Nietzche's writings (mostly The Antichrist)
If you want me to simplify it here ya go:

Atheism does not define meaning or give us meaning, but it helps us recognize that we only have one life, so live it to the fullest.
Christianity has eternal afterlife promised to its believers, so they can be inclined to waste their lives not caring about what happens to the planet or themselves because it's not about the party, it's about the after party, so to speak.

(Not that this is not true with all Christians, because without a doubt, most Christians still instinctively do not live their lives like they are immortal)

But regardless, the dangerous thing about immortality, the curse of immortality, is that it sucks the life out of life.
If you can never die, then you have all the time in the universe to put off anything. An immortal life is a life or misery, boredom, monotony, and meaninglessness.

Atheists believe in that way less often than Christians do



:roll:

You're forgetting the whole crucifixion and who it was done to bit when you extrapolate this nonsense. Especially when you try to (errantly) cite Nietszche.
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Creepoc Infinite
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Founded: Jan 14, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Creepoc Infinite » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:10 am

Distruzio wrote:
Creepoc Infinite wrote:Lead them away from nihilism?
I'm inclined to believe that Christianity has greater risk of being nihilistic than atheism.

I get this idea from Nietzche's writings (mostly The Antichrist)
If you want me to simplify it here ya go:

Atheism does not define meaning or give us meaning, but it helps us recognize that we only have one life, so live it to the fullest.
Christianity has eternal afterlife promised to its believers, so they can be inclined to waste their lives not caring about what happens to the planet or themselves because it's not about the party, it's about the after party, so to speak.

(Not that this is not true with all Christians, because without a doubt, most Christians still instinctively do not live their lives like they are immortal)

But regardless, the dangerous thing about immortality, the curse of immortality, is that it sucks the life out of life.
If you can never die, then you have all the time in the universe to put off anything. An immortal life is a life or misery, boredom, monotony, and meaninglessness.

Atheists believe in that way less often than Christians do



:roll:

You're forgetting the whole crucifixion and who it was done to bit when you extrapolate this nonsense. Especially when you try to (errantly) cite Nietszche.

May I ask how exactly the whole Jesus sacrificial ritual fits into this extrapolation?
My point was that it would be easier for a Christian to use nihilistic reasoning than An atheist.
Atheists usually say you only live once, but Christians say they live forever.
That's all.
Signed, Creepoc Infinite
Secularism should be implemented everywhere at all times, get god out of politics. Get god away from impressionable children while you're at it.
check out my region, here.
Star Wars:http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=328953

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