Cleaveland Officer Shoots A 12 YEAR OLD

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Like I said, in this particular situation where the kid was 12.

An older teen or an adult? Yea, I wouldn't be making the same type of argument, but then again we're not talking about all possible cases, we're talking about THIS particular case with THESE particular set of circumstances.

Cop did not know he was 12.

And that was the fault of dispatch (and up to a point the cop, for one it should be easily distinguishable that it is a kid even from a distance, which is more obvious than the gun being fake).

[AkAr Cydonia]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/us/video-shows-cleveland-officer-shot-tamir-rice-2-seconds-after-pulling-up-next-to-him.html?smid=fb-
nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=141977352200&_r=1

In my opinion, THIS IS BULLSHIT! The kid was fucking innnocent, and from what the data we have right now, he hasn't done anything, although evidence could be shown that I am wrong. I honestly am grateful that I live in Canada, where non of this shit happens. I am not stating every cop in the USA is bad, far from it, I am just stating that I feel more safer as an African and a Black person here in Canada, as opposed to the United States.

Any thoughts NSG?

PS: I am sorry if their is another thread about it, I didn't know. If you are referring to the Ferguson thread, it talks about Ferguson, not Cleaveland. Also, sorry for the spam, I deleted it very quickly so their is only one thread.

I'm going to side with the police officer.

The kid refused to obey instructions and seemed to be reaching for a weapon. Yes it turned out to be a fake gun but it looks like a gun nevertheless; especially in the flash of the moment.

Being an officer is very dangerous in the USA where guns are everywhere. I understand the officer's actions. He felt threatened and reacted accordingly. I am sure the officer understands that he made a reasonable mistake; he will be more careful in the future. I hope he gets reprimanded but otherwise gets to continue to serve in his capacity, unfettered, as an officer of justice and law and order.

If you want to minimize these types of incidents in the future, get rid of the widespread civilian gun ownership. It will lessen misunderstandings.

A responsible adult and parent would use toy guns to educate their child as to what firearms do and what they are capable of.
A civilized society has a place for firearms and the majority of the 270-310 million guns owned by law abiding Americans are not used in ANY crimes whatsoever, roughly about 1 million legal guns are used in crimes the majority being handguns and shot guns, semi-automatic rifles only account for 300 incidents.

[Kaztropol]

Cop did not know he was 12.

And that was the fault of dispatch (and up to a point the cop, for one it should be easily distinguishable that it is a kid even from a distance, which is more obvious that the gun was fake).

My neighbour's grandson is 12, and 5'9". My neighbour is 60, and 5'8".

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And that was the fault of dispatch (and up to a point the cop, for one it should be easily distinguishable that it is a kid even from a distance, which is more obvious that the gun was fake).

My neighbour's grandson is 12, and 5'9". My neighbour is 60, and 5'8".

Has your neighbor's grandson ever been seen with a gun in the street by a cop before?

[North Calaveras]

I'm going to side with the police officer.

The kid refused to obey instructions and seemed to be reaching for a weapon. Yes it turned out to be a fake gun but it looks like a gun nevertheless; especially in the flash of the moment.

Being an officer is very dangerous in the USA where guns are everywhere. I understand the officer's actions. He felt threatened and reacted accordingly. I am sure the officer understands that he made a reasonable mistake; he will be more careful in the future. I hope he gets reprimanded but otherwise gets to continue to serve in his capacity, unfettered, as an officer of justice and law and order.

If you want to minimize these types of incidents in the future, get rid of the widespread civilian gun ownership. It will lessen misunderstandings.

A responsible adult and parent would use toy guns to educate their child as to what firearms do and what they are capable of.
A civilized society has a place for firearms and the majority of the 270-310 million guns owned by law abiding Americans are not used in ANY crimes whatsoever, roughly about 1 million legal guns are used in crimes the majority being handguns and shot guns, semi-automatic rifles only account for 300 incidents.

probably more likley to die from drowning in your pool lol

[Soldati Senza Confini]

A responsible adult and parent would use toy guns to educate their child as to what firearms do and what they are capable of.
A civilized society has a place for firearms and the majority of the 270-310 million guns owned by law abiding Americans are not used in ANY crimes whatsoever, roughly about 1 million legal guns are used in crimes the majority being handguns and shot guns, semi-automatic rifles only account for 300 incidents.

Bullshit

I was never bought a toy gun or any sort of pistol-like toy and I know what firearms are capable of.

[Kaztropol]

My neighbour's grandson is 12, and 5'9". My neighbour is 60, and 5'8".

Has your neighbor's grandson ever been seen with a gun in the street by a cop before?

I doubt it. But that's not the point. The point was, that height is one of the things you can distinguish people by, and that children who are as tall as adults are not necessarily uncommon.

So, how do you easily distinguish that a person is a child at a distance ?

[AkAr Cydonia]

A responsible adult and parent would use toy guns to educate their child as to what firearms do and what they are capable of.
A civilized society has a place for firearms and the majority of the 270-310 million guns owned by law abiding Americans are not used in ANY crimes whatsoever, roughly about 1 million legal guns are used in crimes the majority being handguns and shot guns, semi-automatic rifles only account for 300 incidents.

Bullshit

I was never bought a toy gun or any sort of pistol-like toy and I know what firearms are capable of.

In today's society adults are more like their child's' friends than parents in today's society, not our society from 20-40 years ago, roughly 50 years ago we could buy machine guns and Vietnam era M16s in National Geographic magazine, what changed?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Has your neighbor's grandson ever been seen with a gun in the street by a cop before?

I doubt it. But that's not the point. The point was, that height is one of the things you can distinguish people by, and that children who are as tall as adults are not necessarily uncommon.

So, how do you easily distinguish that a person is a child at a distance ?

Facial features should be an obvious clue.

Unless your argument is that 12 year olds can look identical in features as a 25 or 30 year old.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Bullshit

I was never bought a toy gun or any sort of pistol-like toy and I know what firearms are capable of.

In today's society adults are more like their child's' friends than parents in today's society, not our society from 20-40 years ago, roughly 50 years ago we could buy machine guns and Vietnam era M16s in National Geographic magazine, what changed?

A lot has changed, for one we know kids actually can think for themselves.

Like I said though, the fact a child can think doesn't make them incapable of not knowing any better.

Also, what does that have to do with buying a children a toy gun?

[Ayzifa]

Has your neighbor's grandson ever been seen with a gun in the street by a cop before?

I doubt it. But that's not the point. The point was, that height is one of the things you can distinguish people by, and that children who are as tall as adults are not necessarily uncommon.

So, how do you easily distinguish that a person is a child at a distance ?

This wasn't at a distance, though. The cops got quite close.

[Galloism]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/us/video-shows-cleveland-officer-shot-tamir-rice-2-seconds-after-pulling-up-next-to-him.html?smid=fb-
nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=141977352200&_r=1

In my opinion, THIS IS BULLSHIT! The kid was fucking innnocent, and from what the data we have right now, he hasn't done anything, although evidence could be shown that I am wrong. I honestly am grateful that I live in Canada, where non of this shit happens. I am not stating every cop in the USA is bad, far from it, I am just stating that I feel more safer as an African and a Black person here in Canada, as opposed to the United States.

Any thoughts NSG?

PS: I am sorry if their is another thread about it, I didn't know. If you are referring to the Ferguson thread, it talks about Ferguson, not Cleaveland. Also, sorry for the spam, I deleted it very quickly so their is only one thread.

I'm going to side with the police officer.

The kid refused to obey instructions and seemed to be reaching for a weapon. Yes it turned out to be a fake gun but it looks like a gun nevertheless; especially in the flash of the moment.

Being an officer is very dangerous in the USA where guns are everywhere. I understand the officer's actions. He felt threatened and reacted accordingly. I am sure the officer understands that he made a reasonable mistake; he will be more careful in the future. I hope he gets reprimanded but otherwise gets to continue to serve in his capacity, unfettered, as an officer of justice and law and order.

If you want to minimize these types of incidents in the future, get rid of the widespread civilian gun ownership. It will lessen misunderstandings.

You would side with the police officer if he was using grenades against an unarmed crowd of peaceful protesters.

[The Sotoan Union]

I bet that cop feels horrible, killing a child?

He probably doesn't actually, he probably went home thinking "I done good today, I killed another black criminal heueheueheueu, I done real good!" These cops are assholes, they don't give a shit. That cop valued his life over a child's, there fourth he SHOULD NOT BE A COP.

My favorite part about NSG's fascination with cop threads is the bigotry both sides can produce.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You would side with the police officer if he was using grenades against an unarmed crowd of peaceful protesters.

Just throw in some Game of Thrones-themed police uniforms.

He'll be saying they are 100% justified.

[Kaztropol]

I doubt it. But that's not the point. The point was, that height is one of the things you can distinguish people by, and that children who are as tall as adults are not necessarily uncommon.
So, how do you easily distinguish that a person is a child at a distance ?

Facial features should be an obvious clue.
Unless your argument is that 12 year olds can look identical in features as a 25 or 30 year old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Face_Nelson maybe!

Facial features cannot be distinguished at long distance. Also, lighting, shadows, clothing, etc.

[AkAr Cydonia]

In today's society adults are more like their child's' friends than parents in today's society, not our society from 20-40 years ago, roughly 50 years ago we could buy machine guns and Vietnam era M16s in National Geographic magazine, what changed?

A lot has changed, for one we know kids actually can think for themselves.

Like I said though, the fact a child can think doesn't make them incapable of not knowing any better.

Also, what does that have to do with buying a children a toy gun?

I'm agreeing you, but it is the responsibility of the parent to teach their child along with life lessons that the child goes through that he/she learns how to be a good, respectful human being.
It has absolutely everything to do with buying a toy gun for a child in today's society, parents buy toy guns for their kids and say "here you go" without actually describing what the real firearms are capable of doing, those children then go to play with other kids and eachother, not knowing what the real implications could be if they had real firearms.

When we used to be children we played Cowboys and Indians, cops and robbers, watched looney tunes, the road runner and coyote, Elmer Fudd, Yosemite sam, they used firearms and explosives to kill, did WE grow up to blow humans up and kill other humans?
We are devolving instead of evolving.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Facial features should be an obvious clue.
Unless your argument is that 12 year olds can look identical in features as a 25 or 30 year old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Face_Nelson maybe!

Facial features cannot be distinguished at long distance. Also, lighting, shadows, clothing, etc.

You'd have to be blind not to distinguish an adult from a child.

[The Two Jerseys]

The shooting looks justified to me. The gun looks real, and he reached for it when the police arrived.

[Vassenor]

Facial features should be an obvious clue.

Unless your argument is that 12 year olds can look identical in features as a 25 or 30 year old.

OK, I'm going to use myself as a crash test dummy here.

Based purely on my facial features, how old would you estimate I am?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Facial features should be an obvious clue.

Unless your argument is that 12 year olds can look identical in features as a 25 or 30 year old.

OK, I'm going to use myself as a crash test dummy here.

Based purely on my facial features, how old would you estimate I am?

I would say mid-teens unless there was other information that'd let me know you're older (like a high school diploma or something).

[Vassenor]

I would say mid-teens unless there was other information that'd let me know you're older (like a high school diploma or something).

And therin lies some of the problem. I'm 22.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I would say mid-teens unless there was other information that'd let me know you're older (like a high school diploma or something).

And therin lies some of the problem. I'm 22.

Yes, but that only shows that older adults can remain youthful.

How does a 12 year old can resemble a 25 year old? As in, how can a child who is 12 look 10+ year mature for their age?

[Vassenor]

And therin lies some of the problem. I'm 22.

Yes, but that only shows that older adults can remain youthful.

How does a 12 year old can resemble a 25 year old?

It's more that you can't trust your initial estimates for stuff like this.

[Infected Mushroom]

I'm going to side with the police officer.

The kid refused to obey instructions and seemed to be reaching for a weapon. Yes it turned out to be a fake gun but it looks like a gun nevertheless; especially in the flash of the moment.

Being an officer is very dangerous in the USA where guns are everywhere. I understand the officer's actions. He felt threatened and reacted accordingly. I am sure the officer understands that he made a reasonable mistake; he will be more careful in the future. I hope he gets reprimanded but otherwise gets to continue to serve in his capacity, unfettered, as an officer of justice and law and order.

If you want to minimize these types of incidents in the future, get rid of the widespread civilian gun ownership. It will lessen misunderstandings.

You would side with the police officer if he was using grenades against an unarmed crowd of peaceful protesters.

not necessarily

but you have to consider the subjective position of the officer at the time.

I think there is too much hindsight bias in a lot of these analyses.

For example, it might be a finding of fact AFTER the incident and after some calm investigation that the person pulled out a fake gun or that the crowd of protesters were ''peaceful'...

but it may still have been reasonable for a police officer, in his capacity as a law enforcement officer feeling threatened and in the pursuit of criminals, to act as he did AT THE TIME from his perspective. The law should give effect to that where it is reasonable.

It should be based on what the officer intended and thought at the time and (chances are, it was reasonable). It shouldn't be prejudiced by findings of facts AFTER.

We can't let hindsight bias affect clear judgement.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yes, but that only shows that older adults can remain youthful.

How does a 12 year old can resemble a 25 year old?

It's more that you can't trust your initial estimates for stuff like this.

Well that doesn't answer my question.