Cleaveland Officer Shoots A 12 YEAR OLD

[Senkaku]

Because it reflects on dispatcher training as a whole, and not just the incompetence of a single person right?

It actually does, yes.

Mostly because it should have been fucking obvious to point this out. I mean fuck, it's literally communication 101.

The fact that a guy was incompetent enough to not relay it when they should have points out the department didn't do its job right on teaching this guy to dispatch properly and to communicate relevant information to the cops.

Yes, it reflects quite poorly on dispatcher training. No, it does not reflect on the officer involved, or, say the chief of police or the SWAT team and everyone else in the department.

[Kaztropol]

Even if the dispatcher had relayed that the caller had said it was "probably a fake", then the officers cannot really rely on that.

Can the officers realistically bet their life on the opinion of the caller ? Can they be sure that it is not a set up, to lure the officers into an ambush ?

Do they have any other realistic option except to treat it as a real, lethal, weapon until proven not to be ?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I mean, sure; but we're not talking about the parents (who are obviously morons for letting their kid even own a gun in the first place. I don't give a damn if it is a airsoft gun).

Seriously not the cop's fault, stop trying to blame him. If anything, blame the kid's parents (or maybe, despite how unpopular this opinion is, the kid for removing the orange tip) or the dispatcher for failing to inform the cop of the gun being fake. From a distance, the gun is awfully realistic. Hell, even if I was an inch from the gun, I'd have to pick it up and examine it to ensure it was fake. Throw in the fact the dude might be trying to shoot you, you'll react the same way the cop did. Plus he was a rookie.

I mean, if nobody's denying the situation could have been handled better then there's some degree of fault in the cop for being a dumbass.

Now, that the kid was a dumbass too? Yes, because he should have probably known better. Then again not even 17 year olds know better not to do stupid shit so how the fuck do we expect a 12 year old to know? By telepathy?

His being a rookie has no relevance here either.

[Senkaku]

I mean, sure; but we're not talking about the parents (who are obviously morons for letting their kid even own a gun in the first place. I don't give a damn if it is a airsoft gun).

Seriously not the cop's fault, stop trying to blame him. If anything, blame the kid's parents (or maybe, despite how unpopular this opinion is, the kid for removing the orange tip) or the dispatcher for failing to inform the cop of the gun being fake. From a distance, the gun is awfully realistic. Hell, even if I was an inch from the gun, I'd have to pick it up and examine it to ensure it was fake. Throw in the fact the dude might be trying to shoot you, you'll react the same way the cop did. Plus he was a rookie.

I'd personally mostly blame the dispatcher. Between all those things you just listed, and the fact that the dispatcher gave him information that led to the immediate escalation of the situation, it seems like if the dispatcher had said "looks like a kid, and they said he probably has a fake gun", things might have ended up fine.


Also, his being a rookie is entirely relevant. He was inexperienced.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Well that's stupid.

I mean, why the fuck would we allow a child to commit a violent act towards us just because we shouldn't harm children.

"Because he is a child and we shouldn't harm child under any circumstances no matter what." His words.

I mean, sure, if you're wrestling a 12 year old of course you shouldn't harm the child because he's much weaker than you and you can subdue him easily.

If a kid is pointing a real gun at you I beg to differ.

However, this wasn't a real gun, even DISPATCH knew it probably wasn't a real gun (and they didn't relay the information).

The most reasonable thing to have done, IF SHOTS HAD TO BE FIRED, was to shoot aside just to show that it is a real gun and scare the kid. Because he's 12, he's easily impressed (not to say he's a child and expected to act like a dumbass).

[Senkaku]

"Because he is a child and we shouldn't harm child under any circumstances no matter what." His words.

I mean, sure, if you're wrestling a 12 year old of course you shouldn't harm the child because he's much weaker than you and you can subdue him easily.

If a kid is pointing a real gun at you I beg to differ.

However, this wasn't a real gun, even DISPATCH knew it probably wasn't a real gun (and they didn't relay the information).

The most reasonable thing to have done, IF SHOTS HAD TO BE FIRED, was to shoot aside just to show that it is a real gun and scare the kid. Because he's 12, he's easily impressed (not to say he's a child and expected to act like a dumbass).

Again, officer was unaware it was a child- and also, police officers aren't trained to give warning shots. If you think someone is about to try and shoot you, you don't just fire at his feet. Sure, maybe that's what you or I would do, but we would also then run a real risk of then getting our faces blown in if it was a real gun. Officers are not trained that way.

[Kaztropol]

The most reasonable thing to have done, IF SHOTS HAD TO BE FIRED, was to shoot aside just to show that it is a real gun and scare the kid. Because he's 12, he's easily impressed (not to say he's a child and expected to act like a dumbass).

Warning shots ?

People have been killed by such stray gunfire. Sometimes hundreds of yards away.

[Republic 0f Texas]

You can, and you should if all the information you have points towards them being an armed adult pulling a gun on you.

You heard it here first, everybody. Senkaku thinks it's okay to kill children to save your own life.

[Allentyr]

I mean, if nobody's denying the situation could have been handled better then there's some degree of fault in the cop for being a dumbass.

Now, that the kid was a dumbass too? Yes, because he should have probably known better. Then again not even 17 year olds know better not to do stupid shit so how the fuck do we expect a 12 year old to know? By telepathy?

His being a rookie has no relevance here either.

Being 12 by no means make you a retard. And him being a rookie does indeed have a relevance. He does not have the experience, thus he would be more prone to choose the wrong course of action due to panic.

I'd personally mostly blame the dispatcher. Between all those things you just listed, and the fact that the dispatcher gave him information that led to the immediate escalation of the situation, it seems like if the dispatcher had said "looks like a kid, and they said he probably has a fake gun", things might have ended up fine.


Also, his being a rookie is entirely relevant. He was inexperienced.

I still say blame his parents....

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The most reasonable thing to have done, IF SHOTS HAD TO BE FIRED, was to shoot aside just to show that it is a real gun and scare the kid. Because he's 12, he's easily impressed (not to say he's a child and expected to act like a dumbass).

Warning shots ?

People have been killed by such stray gunfire. Sometimes hundreds of yards away.

You shoot AT THE GROUND (not at concrete, at actual dirt).

Jesus, do most people NOT know how to operate a gun?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I mean, if nobody's denying the situation could have been handled better then there's some degree of fault in the cop for being a dumbass.

Now, that the kid was a dumbass too? Yes, because he should have probably known better. Then again not even 17 year olds know better not to do stupid shit so how the fuck do we expect a 12 year old to know? By telepathy?

His being a rookie has no relevance here either.

Being 12 by no means make you a retard. And him being a rookie does indeed have a relevance. He does not have the experience, thus he would be more prone to choose the wrong course of action due to panic.

Sure it doesn't.

That's why pre-teens and teens have to be told what to do even when they should know better.

[Allentyr]

Warning shots ?

People have been killed by such stray gunfire. Sometimes hundreds of yards away.

You shoot AT THE GROUND (not at concrete, at actual dirt).

Jesus, do most people NOT know how to operate a gun?

MOST people in fact do not

[Senkaku]

Warning shots ?

People have been killed by such stray gunfire. Sometimes hundreds of yards away.

You shoot AT THE GROUND (not at concrete, at actual dirt).

Jesus, do most people NOT know how to operate a gun?

And then run the risk of taking a bullet to the throat if it turns out he really was drawing a gun on you.

Again, it's just not how officers are trained.

[Empire of Narnia]

Airsoft guns look like real guns. They are a whole step above cheap dollar store toys. That's why Canada only allows clear plastic airsoft guns. The USA has the orange tip rule, but sometimes people paint over the orange tips.

[Allentyr]

Sure it doesn't.

That's why pre-teens and teens have to be told what to do even when they should know better.

I think 12 year old me would be very offended by that. Especially since that's when I really started to "think".

[Sediczja]

Warning shots ?

People have been killed by such stray gunfire. Sometimes hundreds of yards away.

You shoot AT THE GROUND (not at concrete, at actual dirt).

Jesus, do most people NOT know how to operate a gun?

As far as I am aware, police don't fire warning shots.

[North Calaveras]

Well is it common for younger kids to be involved with violent crime in that area? even concerning the use the firearms in said crimes?

if the answer is yes, combined with the fact that the gun looks very real(id have to hold it to know) then this could be justified.

[AkAr Cydonia]

These are the facts:
1. The child was handling a replica air soft gun, it DID NOT HAVE any sort of orange marker required by law.
2. The child was 12 years old, alone in a park with a replica air soft gun, you have to be 16-18 years of age to even purchase any sort of replica air soft gun without an orange marked tip.
3. The child was not "twirling" the pistol around his finger and was not handling the weapon when officers arrived on scene.
4. The replica air soft gun was in the child's waist band on his pants.
5. When officers arrived on scene they gave him the orders to put his hands up and get on the ground.
6. The child did not comply and grabbed the replica air soft gun from his waist band and lifted it up towards police.
7. The officers shot the child twice in the stomach for reaching for a gun in his waist band that was not clearly recognizable as an replica air soft gun because it was a metal 1911 model without an orange marked barrel.
8. The officers did their job.
9. If you don't listen to police when they have their guns drawn towards you when you have a gun how can you not expect to get shot.
10. We live in a world where the complete psychopaths are getting more courageous to go about to do harm to civilians in public places, the officers had done their job.

This has nothing to do with race and the militarization of police, an officer sees you with a gun in your waist band and proceeds to tell you to put your hands up and get on the ground, you disobey the lawful order and grab the gun from your waist and point it at those officers, what do you think is going to happen?
We are all born with knowing right from wrong and common sense, it is embedded is us and taught to us as we age, I see everyone saying "police are hungry for blood" I highly doubt it because they are doing their jobs as trained to do so to deal with those incidents.
It is sad that a child was lost, but what was a child doing in a public place with a gun?

Why is not one person asking these questions, a 12 year old child is in public place with a gun.
Where is the parents of this child?
Why is the child alone in a park with a replica airsoft gun?
Who bought the replica air soft gun for the child?
Who educated this child on firearms?
Where are the parents at the time of this incident?
What adult lets their child go to a park alone with a replica airsoft gun?
Why did the child bring a replica air soft gun to a park?

Simple question that has nothing to do with race, only content of character as mentioned by MLK.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You shoot AT THE GROUND (not at concrete, at actual dirt).

Jesus, do most people NOT know how to operate a gun?

And then run the risk of taking a bullet to the throat if it turns out he really was drawing a gun on you.

Again, it's just not how officers are trained.

Like I said, in this particular situation where the kid was 12.

An older teen or an adult? Yea, I wouldn't be making the same type of argument, but then again we're not talking about all possible cases, we're talking about THIS particular case with THESE particular set of circumstances.

[Igoria]

Bit extreme if you ask me.

[Allentyr]

And then run the risk of taking a bullet to the throat if it turns out he really was drawing a gun on you.

Again, it's just not how officers are trained.

Like I said, in this particular situation where the kid was 12.

An older teen or an adult? Yea, I wouldn't be making the same type of argument, but then again we're not talking about all possible cases, we're talking about THIS particular case with THESE particular set of circumstances.

Cop did not know he was 12.

[Senkaku]

And then run the risk of taking a bullet to the throat if it turns out he really was drawing a gun on you.

Again, it's just not how officers are trained.

Like I said, in this particular situation where the kid was 12.

An older teen or an adult? Yea, I wouldn't be making the same type of argument, but then again we're not talking about all possible cases, we're talking about THIS particular case with THESE particular set of circumstances.

For the twelve-trillionth time, THE OFFICER DID NOT KNOW HE WAS DEALING WITH A 12 YEAR OLD.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Sure it doesn't.

That's why pre-teens and teens have to be told what to do even when they should know better.

I think 12 year old me would be very offended by that. Especially since that's when I really started to "think".

Let's not pretend here that having the capacity to "think" makes you incapable of not knowing better.

I know children can "think" for themselves, however that doesn't mean they know any better.

That's why kids are expected to act like dumbasses, because they don't know any better.

[Infected Mushroom]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/us/video-shows-cleveland-officer-shot-tamir-rice-2-seconds-after-pulling-up-next-to-him.html?smid=fb-
nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=141977352200&_r=1

In my opinion, THIS IS BULLSHIT! The kid was fucking innnocent, and from what the data we have right now, he hasn't done anything, although evidence could be shown that I am wrong. I honestly am grateful that I live in Canada, where non of this shit happens. I am not stating every cop in the USA is bad, far from it, I am just stating that I feel more safer as an African and a Black person here in Canada, as opposed to the United States.

Any thoughts NSG?

PS: I am sorry if their is another thread about it, I didn't know. If you are referring to the Ferguson thread, it talks about Ferguson, not Cleaveland. Also, sorry for the spam, I deleted it very quickly so their is only one thread.

I'm going to side with the police officer.

The kid refused to obey instructions and seemed to be reaching for a weapon. Yes it turned out to be a fake gun but it looks like a gun nevertheless; especially in the flash of the moment.

Being an officer is very dangerous in the USA where guns are everywhere. I understand the officer's actions. He felt threatened and reacted accordingly. I am sure the officer understands that he made a reasonable mistake; he will be more careful in the future. I hope he gets reprimanded but otherwise gets to continue to serve in his capacity, unfettered, as an officer of justice and law and order.

If you want to minimize these types of incidents in the future, get rid of the widespread civilian gun ownership. It will lessen misunderstandings.

[North Calaveras]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/us/video-shows-cleveland-officer-shot-tamir-rice-2-seconds-after-pulling-up-next-to-him.html?smid=fb-
nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=141977352200&_r=1

In my opinion, THIS IS BULLSHIT! The kid was fucking innnocent, and from what the data we have right now, he hasn't done anything, although evidence could be shown that I am wrong. I honestly am grateful that I live in Canada, where non of this shit happens. I am not stating every cop in the USA is bad, far from it, I am just stating that I feel more safer as an African and a Black person here in Canada, as opposed to the United States.

Any thoughts NSG?

PS: I am sorry if their is another thread about it, I didn't know. If you are referring to the Ferguson thread, it talks about Ferguson, not Cleaveland. Also, sorry for the spam, I deleted it very quickly so their is only one thread.

I'm going to side with the police officer.

The kid refused to obey instructions and seemed to be reaching for a weapon. Yes it turned out to be a fake gun but it looks like a gun nevertheless; especially in the flash of the moment.

Being an officer is very dangerous in the USA where guns are everywhere. I understand the officer's actions. He felt threatened and reacted accordingly. I am sure the officer understands that he made a reasonable mistake; he will be more careful in the future. I hope he gets reprimanded but otherwise gets to continue to serve in his capacity, unfettered, as an officer of justice and law and order.

If you want to minimize these types of incidents in the future, get rid of the widespread civilian gun ownership. It will lessen misunderstandings.

negative