Ferguson Megathread

[The Cobalt Sky]

Wow, what an amazingly irrelevant response! So, please tell me what these tragic events mean at all other than to set up a straw man and pointlessly shoot it down?

Now, please explain to me how the about a dozen cases that have been brought up over the course of this thread invalidate the service of thousands of officers, and immediately make all of them black-killing racists?

As was pointed out, nice strawman. Also, you're channeling Dick Cheney defending the CIA's tortures as being a vital service to the country.

Channeling? Like he's an evil ghost?

[Bontavation]

As was pointed out, nice strawman. Also, you're channeling Dick Cheney defending the CIA's tortures as being a vital service to the country.

Channeling? Like he's an evil ghost?

Well, he's an old man with no pulse who advocates murder and torture...

[Alien Space Bats]

Now, please explain to me how the about a dozen cases that have been brought up over the course of this thread invalidate the service of thousands of officers, and immediately make all of them black-killing racists?

Now THAT is a strawman if I ever saw one.

What we are saying is essentially this: We live in a society that has too many negative cultural memes that serve to depict its black population as criminally dangerous. Police are extremely sensitive to the possibility of being killed or injured in the line of duty. Where these two facts intersect is where we end up with one or two unarmed dead black men week in and week out, year after year.

Just look at the increasing number of videos of these shooting incidents being taken and aired as time goes by: You can count off the seconds from the moment the police reach the vicinity and the moment the unarmed victim goes down, and all too often you won't even get to five "Mississippis" before guns are blazing. Hollywood may depict police officers yelling "Down! Get down! Drop it!" before pulling the trigger, but that's not how things work out in real life: Police training and perceptions fuse together to create a world in which guns are fired before the imagined "perpetrator" has time to comply with any police order whatsoever.

So no, we don't have to posit that "all" policemen are "black-killing racists"; we just have to understand that they are just like the rest of us in seeing danger more readily in black men, that their training is to eliminate anything they see as a threat the moment it manifests itself, and that these two factors work together to place young black men and youths at risk.

And this is why I've not been calling for such changes as "more black policemen"; it wouldn't matter one bit if there WERE more black policemen, because that's not the problem. We need to question societal stereotypes and memes that lead us to assume that black men are inherently dangerous (or, relatively speaking, MORE dangerous than other men), and we need to reexamine police tactics, especially in light of the increasing tendency of police departments to behave as though they were military units on patrol in enemy-occupied territory, rather than as peace officers performing a constabulary role in support of the communities they're sworn to protect.

[Pragia]

Wow, what an amazingly irrelevant response! So, please tell me what these tragic events mean at all other than to set up a straw man and pointlessly shoot it down?

Now, please explain to me how the about a dozen cases that have been brought up over the course of this thread invalidate the service of thousands of officers, and immediately make all of them black-killing racists?

As was pointed out, nice strawman. Also, you're channeling Dick Cheney defending the CIA's tortures as being a vital service to the country.

Considering you've said that the cops won't shoot protestors because there were too many whites in the crowd, it's hardly a strawman. To compare the work of honest cops who work to serve the public to the work of CIA torturers is disgusting.

[Gauthier]

As was pointed out, nice strawman. Also, you're channeling Dick Cheney defending the CIA's tortures as being a vital service to the country.

Considering you've said that the cops won't shoot protestors because there were too many whites in the crowd, it's hardly a strawman. To compare the work of honest cops who work to serve the public to the work of CIA torturers is disgusting.

Considering Anonymous exposed a large number of KKK memberships in the Ferguson PD, it's still a strawman since I never said ALL police were racists, just the ones in Ferguson.

[Pragia]

Considering you've said that the cops won't shoot protestors because there were too many whites in the crowd, it's hardly a strawman. To compare the work of honest cops who work to serve the public to the work of CIA torturers is disgusting.

Considering Anonymous exposed a large number of KKK memberships in the Ferguson PD, it's still a strawman since I never said ALL police were racists, just the ones in Ferguson.

So there is not a single legitimate cop in the entire town? Also there are protests all over the country, and Anonymous is hardly a reliable or unbiased source.

[Kelinfort]

As was pointed out, nice strawman. Also, you're channeling Dick Cheney defending the CIA's tortures as being a vital service to the country.

Considering you've said that the cops won't shoot protestors because there were too many whites in the crowd, it's hardly a strawman. To compare the work of honest cops who work to serve the public to the work of CIA torturers is disgusting.

Actually, even if his argument was a strawman, that doesn't excuse your strawman.

Not only does that misrepresent the position of most people protesting the Ferguson decision, it is a blatant strawman. Our culture has cultural stereotypes concerning African American men. When police officers, who are sensitive to these as any other individual is, feel in danger, they're more prone to make mistakes and kill. This is a very real problem that needs to be changed. Unfortunately, all of us have our own prejudice due to our own media. We cannot ignore our own bias and unconscious perception.

[Pragia]

Now, please explain to me how the about a dozen cases that have been brought up over the course of this thread invalidate the service of thousands of officers, and immediately make all of them black-killing racists?

Now THAT is a strawman if I ever saw one.

What we are saying is essentially this: We live in a society that has too many negative cultural memes that serve to depict its black population as criminally dangerous. Police are extremely sensitive to the possibility of being killed or injured in the line of duty. Where these two facts intersect is where we end up with one or two unarmed dead black men week in and week out, year after year.

Just look at the increasing number of videos of these shooting incidents being taken and aired as time goes by: You can count off the seconds from the moment the police reach the vicinity and the moment the unarmed victim goes down, and all too often you won't even get to five "Mississippis" before guns are blazing. Hollywood may depict police officers yelling "Down! Get down! Drop it!" before pulling the trigger, but that's not how things work out in real life: Police training and perceptions fuse together to create a world in which guns are fired before the imagined "perpetrator" has time to comply with any police order whatsoever.

So no, we don't have to posit that "all" policemen are "black-killing racists"; we just have to understand that they are just like the rest of us in seeing danger more readily in black men, that their training is to eliminate anything they see as a threat the moment it manifests itself, and that these two factors work together to place young black men and youths at risk.

And this is why I've not been calling for such changes as "more black policemen"; it wouldn't matter one bit if there WERE more black policemen, because that's not the problem. We need to question societal stereotypes and memes that lead us to assume that black men are inherently dangerous (or, relatively speaking, MORE dangerous than other men), and we need to reexamine police tactics, especially in light of the increasing tendency of police departments to behave as though they were military units on patrol in enemy-occupied territory, rather than as peace officers performing a constabulary role in support of the communities they're sworn to protect.

Of course we should tear down societal stereotypes, but how do people propose to do so? The problem is that people are entitled to their opinion, no matter how backwards they are. What is the purpose of these protests if they have no real solution? The other problem is that so bad areas,it is practically a warzone (living in Oakland), and though police response was inappropriate in many areas, I don't think it's entirely their fault. I also agree police should be required to have tasers and less-than-lethal options, but the lethal option should also exist.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Now THAT is a strawman if I ever saw one.

What we are saying is essentially this: We live in a society that has too many negative cultural memes that serve to depict its black population as criminally dangerous. Police are extremely sensitive to the possibility of being killed or injured in the line of duty. Where these two facts intersect is where we end up with one or two unarmed dead black men week in and week out, year after year.

Just look at the increasing number of videos of these shooting incidents being taken and aired as time goes by: You can count off the seconds from the moment the police reach the vicinity and the moment the unarmed victim goes down, and all too often you won't even get to five "Mississippis" before guns are blazing. Hollywood may depict police officers yelling "Down! Get down! Drop it!" before pulling the trigger, but that's not how things work out in real life: Police training and perceptions fuse together to create a world in which guns are fired before the imagined "perpetrator" has time to comply with any police order whatsoever.

So no, we don't have to posit that "all" policemen are "black-killing racists"; we just have to understand that they are just like the rest of us in seeing danger more readily in black men, that their training is to eliminate anything they see as a threat the moment it manifests itself, and that these two factors work together to place young black men and youths at risk.

And this is why I've not been calling for such changes as "more black policemen"; it wouldn't matter one bit if there WERE more black policemen, because that's not the problem. We need to question societal stereotypes and memes that lead us to assume that black men are inherently dangerous (or, relatively speaking, MORE dangerous than other men), and we need to reexamine police tactics, especially in light of the increasing tendency of police departments to behave as though they were military units on patrol in enemy-occupied territory, rather than as peace officers performing a constabulary role in support of the communities they're sworn to protect.

Of course we should tear down societal stereotypes, but how do people propose to do so? The problem is that people are entitled to their opinion, no matter how backwards they are. What is the purpose of these protests if they have no real solution? The other problem is that so bad areas,it is practically a warzone (living in Oakland), and though police response was inappropriate in many areas, I don't think it's entirely their fault. I also agree police should be required to have tasers and less-than-lethal options, but the lethal option should also exist.

The first thing that we can do is stop thinking that "People are entitled to their opinions" equals "People with shitty opinions that add to this problem shouldn't be gently confronted and educated about how shitty their opinions are". The protests ideally wake people up to the fact that this remains a real and prevalent problem, and that we don't live in a post-racial society. Once people are aware that this is an issue, we can start dealing with the stereotypes, starting with the difficult process of finding out what stereotypes we ourselves may buy into without realizing it.

[Pragia]

Of course we should tear down societal stereotypes, but how do people propose to do so? The problem is that people are entitled to their opinion, no matter how backwards they are. What is the purpose of these protests if they have no real solution? The other problem is that so bad areas,it is practically a warzone (living in Oakland), and though police response was inappropriate in many areas, I don't think it's entirely their fault. I also agree police should be required to have tasers and less-than-lethal options, but the lethal option should also exist.

The first thing that we can do is stop thinking that "People are entitled to their opinions" equals "People with shitty opinions that add to this problem shouldn't be gently confronted and educated about how shitty their opinions are". The protests ideally wake people up to the fact that this remains a real and prevalent problem, and that we don't live in a post-racial society. Once people are aware that this is an issue, we can start dealing with the stereotypes, starting with the difficult process of finding out what stereotypes we ourselves may buy into without realizing it.

So what would you do to combat shitty opinions?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

The first thing that we can do is stop thinking that "People are entitled to their opinions" equals "People with shitty opinions that add to this problem shouldn't be gently confronted and educated about how shitty their opinions are". The protests ideally wake people up to the fact that this remains a real and prevalent problem, and that we don't live in a post-racial society. Once people are aware that this is an issue, we can start dealing with the stereotypes, starting with the difficult process of finding out what stereotypes we ourselves may buy into without realizing it.

So what would you do to combat shitty opinions?

Depends upon the person and the opinion. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but this isn't one size fits all. Some people can be convinced through debate, some through example, some through argument, and some I can't get through to at all. Mostly I attempt to educate people, and hope that the seeds fall on fertile ground...or at least ground that will one day become fertile. God knows it took me long enough to realize my own prejudices. Growing up in a liberal household, I'd always thought of people who bought into stereotypes as "them", and never as "us", certainly not "me". After a while, though, with some education, I realized that I did tend to be more wary when black people were behind me on a street at night, and did automatically think in terms of gang or criminal activity when I saw groups of young black men hanging out downtown. Difficult, since I didn't even realize that I was thinking that until I started to pay attention.

I suppose that the first step in combating shitty opinions for me was to ruthlessly weed out my own.

[The Cobalt Sky]

Channeling? Like he's an evil ghost?

Well, he's an old man with no pulse who advocates murder and torture...

So... He's Beelzebub?

[Gauthier]

Well, he's an old man with no pulse who advocates murder and torture...

So... He's Beelzebub?

That's an insult to Beelzebub. The Rolling Stones wrote Sympathy For the Devil, not Sympathy For Dick Cheney.

[Maineiacs]

So... He's Beelzebub?

That's an insult to Beelzebub. The Rolling Stones wrote Sympathy For the Devil, not Sympathy For Dick Cheney.

I can't imagine too many people having sympathy for Cheney.

[Soufrika]

Looks like the star witness' testimony has been, too late, turned to Swiss cheese.

The grand jury witness who testified that she saw Michael Brown pummel a cop before charging at him “like a football player, head down,” is a troubled, bipolar Missouri woman with a criminal past who has a history of making racist remarks and once insinuated herself into another high-profile St. Louis criminal case with claims that police eventually dismissed as a “complete fabrication,” The Smoking Gun has learned.
[...]
Sandra McElroy did not provide police with a contemporaneous account of the Brown-Wilson confrontation, which she claimed to have watched unfold in front of her as she stood on a nearby sidewalk smoking a cigarette.
Instead, McElroy waited four weeks after the shooting to contact cops. By the time she gave St. Louis police a statement on September 11, a general outline of Wilson’s version of the shooting had already appeared in the press. McElroy’s account of the confrontation dovetailed with Wilson’s reported recollection of the incident.

[The Cobalt Sky]

So... He's Beelzebub?

That's an insult to Beelzebub. The Rolling Stones wrote Sympathy For the Devil, not Sympathy For Dick Cheney.

Well then ultra-satan the destroyer will feel uncomfortable if he's got some competition in evil.

[The Cobalt Sky]

That's an insult to Beelzebub. The Rolling Stones wrote Sympathy For the Devil, not Sympathy For Dick Cheney.

I can't imagine too many people having sympathy for Cheney.

Wow. People really don't like him.
http://www.alternet.org/story/60474/dic ... s_that_bad
Also that time he shot that guy in the face and didn't apologize was creepy.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Police also stop blacks more often when they make "random" stops. The problem is not when they stop black people who they have a legitimate reason to suspect of a crime. It's when they stop black people that were minding their own business.

If you're doing random stops and there's mostly black folk around, I wonder what race will be stopped more often?

I am saying if you are black, you will get pulled over more often than someone who is white.

There have been many places that black people complained about being pulled over, someone collected statistics, and the statistics showed that it was a legitimate complaint. I knew a black guy who got pulled over in "random" stops every couple of weeks. That's really not normal unless you're being profiled.

Too bad Nemmy got DEATed... He is white and he lived up the block from my friend, so if he was still around, we could ask him how often he gets pulled over.

[Nazi Flower Power]

And let's pretend there's no such thing as Shopping While Black either. Nope, it's just dem welfare moochers having an atittude of entitlement and refusing to accept responsibility amirite?

Barneys busted student for ‘shopping while black’

John Crawford Tragically Killed ‘Shopping While Black’ And Holding a Toy Gun

Wow, what an amazingly irrelevant response! So, please tell me what these tragic events mean at all other than to set up a straw man and pointlessly shoot it down?

Now, please explain to me how the about a dozen cases that have been brought up over the course of this thread invalidate the service of thousands of officers, and immediately make all of them black-killing racists?

Speaking of setting up a strawman...

[Pragia]

Wow, what an amazingly irrelevant response! So, please tell me what these tragic events mean at all other than to set up a straw man and pointlessly shoot it down?

Now, please explain to me how the about a dozen cases that have been brought up over the course of this thread invalidate the service of thousands of officers, and immediately make all of them black-killing racists?

Speaking of setting up a strawman...

It's not a strawman if that's what he actually believes. He's made multiple posts talking about how the cops of Furgeson all are black killing racists and want to fire upon protesters.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Speaking of setting up a strawman...

It's not a strawman if that's what he actually believes. He's made multiple posts talking about how the cops of Furgeson all are black killing racists and want to fire upon protesters.

Could you point one of those out to me?

[Pragia]

It's not a strawman if that's what he actually believes. He's made multiple posts talking about how the cops of Furgeson all are black killing racists and want to fire upon protesters.

Could you point one of those out to me?

That's an impressively dense thing to say. Honestly, I don't think I could keep a straight face while attacking a strawman that blatantly. No person has argued in this thread any of those things, and I'm honestly a little insulted that you think the average reader won't see through such a transparent attempt to discredit the opposition.

I can't tell if half the things Gauthier has said are actual opinions or satire, I'll try to dig up a quote, but I'm fairly sure something along those lines were said here.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=321353&p=22558998#p22558998

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I had another response here, but I don't want to speak for Gauthier, so I edited it. I will say that I believe that you may have missed the tone of the post.

[Myrensis]

Looks like the star witness' testimony has been, too late, turned to Swiss cheese.

The grand jury witness who testified that she saw Michael Brown pummel a cop before charging at him “like a football player, head down,” is a troubled, bipolar Missouri woman with a criminal past who has a history of making racist remarks and once insinuated herself into another high-profile St. Louis criminal case with claims that police eventually dismissed as a “complete fabrication,” The Smoking Gun has learned.
[...]
Sandra McElroy did not provide police with a contemporaneous account of the Brown-Wilson confrontation, which she claimed to have watched unfold in front of her as she stood on a nearby sidewalk smoking a cigarette.
Instead, McElroy waited four weeks after the shooting to contact cops. By the time she gave St. Louis police a statement on September 11, a general outline of Wilson’s version of the shooting had already appeared in the press. McElroy’s account of the confrontation dovetailed with Wilson’s reported recollection of the incident.

What do you mean too late? McCulloch knew about it.

He chose to present witnesses he knew, or strongly suspected, were lying anyway, because remember he wanted the Grand Jury to be 'fair'.

But remember kids, any suggestions that our judicial system could be flawed or biased in any way is just an excuse people use to avoid talking about the black culture of crime and violence.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I had another response here, but I don't want to speak for Gauthier, so I edited it. I will say that I believe that you may have missed the tone of the post.

Sarcasm detectors are finicky and difficult to calibrate.