Ferguson Megathread

[Jamzmania]

He was a young man, wearing a hoodie, and acting suspiciously at night in an area recently plagued by burglars.

And several of those burglars happened to be black. And being black is not the same thing as "acting suspiciously."

According to Zimmerman he was acting suspiciously. You seem to automatically assume that's because he was black and nothing else.

[MERIZoC]

And several of those burglars happened to be black. And being black is not the same thing as "acting suspiciously."

According to Zimmerman he was acting suspiciously. You seem to automatically assume that's because he was black and nothing else.

What was it then?

[Mavorpen]

And several of those burglars happened to be black. And being black is not the same thing as "acting suspiciously."

According to Zimmerman he was acting suspiciously. You seem to automatically assume that's because he was black and nothing else.

And I would tell him the same thing I just told you: being black is not acting suspiciously.

[Ripoll]

unjus

The proportions to which this is being blown up is ridiculous

They definitely aren't. If anything, there should be more people protesting, more people speaking out against the corrupt system.

They make reforms when necessary and they fired cops, cracked down on unions, and audited departments. All protesters are doing is fueling unjust generalizations against the law and men in blue the vast majority of whom lay down their lives to protect the common interests of a society. there's a drive by shooting every hour in Milwaukee why don't we protest about that? Why don't we have a war against crime instead of only giving a damn about an issue when it promotes our agenda?

Nobody protesting can name the last 4 victims of crime in those communities.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/12/03/ ... -ferguson/

[Jamzmania]

According to Zimmerman he was acting suspiciously. You seem to automatically assume that's because he was black and nothing else.

And I would tell him the same thing I just told you: being black is not acting suspiciously.

Yeah, but you assume that him being black is the only reason he thought he was suspicious, with no other evidence to back up that claim other than "Trayvon Martin was black."

[Emile Zola]

They make reforms when necessary and they fired cops, cracked down on unions, and audited departments. All protesters are doing is fueling unjust generalizations against the law and men in blue the vast majority of whom lay down their lives to protect the common interests of a society. there's a drive by shooting every hour in Milwaukee why don't we protest about that? Why don't we have a war against crime instead of only giving a damn about an issue when it promotes our agenda?

Nobody protesting can name the last 4 victims of crime in those communities.

Wow the irony...

Those meany protestors are generalizing about cops but hey look at black on black crime am I right?

Fucking genius.

[Mavorpen]

All protesters are doing is fueling unjust generalizations against the law and men in blue the vast majority of whom lay down their lives to protect the common interests of a society.

No, they aren't. They're fueling justified outrage with a wider issue that needs to be addressed on a national scale.

there's a drive by shooting every hour in Milwaukee why don't we protest about that?

Because we have higher standards for public entities. And when public entities fail to correctly perform justice, we naturally get more angry.

Why don't we have a war against crime instead of only giving a damn about an issue when it promotes our agenda?

We do, and it's actually working. It's not our fault if you don't pay attention.

Nobody protesting can name the last 4 victims of crime in those communities.

Why would you expect them to be able to do so?

[Mavorpen]

And I would tell him the same thing I just told you: being black is not acting suspiciously.

Yeah, but you assume that him being black is the only reason he thought he was suspicious, with no other evidence to back up that claim other than "Trayvon Martin was black."

Because you haven't given me any other reason to believe otherwise. Simply saying "he was acting suspicious" tells me utterly nothing about how he was actually behaving. The natural conclusion, then, given the context, is that he blatantly profiled Trayvon on a racial basis.

[Emile Zola]

And I would tell him the same thing I just told you: being black is not acting suspiciously.

Yeah, but you assume that him being black is the only reason he thought he was suspicious, with no other evidence to back up that claim other than "Trayvon Martin was black."

We know that Trayvon Martin went to the shops to get some snacks. What did he do that made him suspicious to George Zimmerman?

[The Seleucids (Ancient)]

Because clearly [Fill in Blank] While Black is just a fiction cooked up by social justice warriors and if someone colored gets pulled over by police for any reason whatsoever they need to shut up and bend over, right?

No I mean stop using the color of your skin as an excuse. Like the Martin Zimmerman incident someone automatically assumed it was a white guy who shot a black teen when the "white" guy wasn't white or with the more recent protest I heard people saying it's not about being black it's about police "tyranny" when they holding up signs saying black lives matter if we just stop using the color of our skin as a tool for everyday life then a big majority of fascism will go away. I'm tired of hearing "ethnic quotas" and such

Its the police that uses color as an excuse aswell, look at that stop and frisk shit, you can tell me whatever you want but that stuff is all about color. Saying that people with such color shouldn't complain about it is just wrong.

[Ripoll]

They make reforms when necessary and they fired cops, cracked down on unions, and audited departments. All protesters are doing is fueling unjust generalizations against the law and men in blue the vast majority of whom lay down their lives to protect the common interests of a society. there's a drive by shooting every hour in Milwaukee why don't we protest about that? Why don't we have a war against crime instead of only giving a damn about an issue when it promotes our agenda?

Nobody protesting can name the last 4 victims of crime in those communities.

Wow the irony...

Those meany protestors are generalizing about cops but hey look at black on black crime am I right?

Fucking genius.

Without cops ghettos would be worse than Somalia

[Mavorpen]

Wow the irony...

Those meany protestors are generalizing about cops but hey look at black on black crime am I right?

Fucking genius.

Without cops ghettos would be worse than Somalia

Without cops or any other form of public law enforcement ANY place would be worse than Somalia. What's your point?

[Ripoll]

Yeah, but you assume that him being black is the only reason he thought he was suspicious, with no other evidence to back up that claim other than "Trayvon Martin was black."

Because you haven't given me any other reason to believe otherwise. Simply saying "he was acting suspicious" tells me utterly nothing about how he was actually behaving. The natural conclusion, then, given the context, is that he blatantly profiled Trayvon on a racial basis.

The specific case of Ferguson I watched the entire grand jury decision, and frankly I didn't feel there was one thing out of place.

What happened was tragic, but what happens with police brutality in general not always some systematic hate against Black people.

[The Seleucids (Ancient)]

Without cops ghettos would be worse than Somalia

Without cops or any other form of public law enforcement ANY place would be worse than Somalia. What's your point?

Meh, not really... Western Europe has some strict rules on guns, you can't simply buy a RPG for $500 on the everyday market

[Mavorpen]

Without cops or any other form of public law enforcement ANY place would be worse than Somalia. What's your point?

Meh, not really... Western Europe has some strict rules on guns, you can't simply buy a RPG for $500 on the everyday market

Okay, you got me there.

[Jamzmania]

Yeah, but you assume that him being black is the only reason he thought he was suspicious, with no other evidence to back up that claim other than "Trayvon Martin was black."

Because you haven't given me any other reason to believe otherwise. Simply saying "he was acting suspicious" tells me utterly nothing about how he was actually behaving. The natural conclusion, then, given the context, is that he blatantly profiled Trayvon on a racial basis.

The "natural conclusion" to you, maybe. Here's what Zimmerman told the dispatcher:

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...
Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: Okay, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
Dispatcher: Okay, he's just walking around the area...
Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: Okay...
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.

[Mavorpen]

Because you haven't given me any other reason to believe otherwise. Simply saying "he was acting suspicious" tells me utterly nothing about how he was actually behaving. The natural conclusion, then, given the context, is that he blatantly profiled Trayvon on a racial basis.

The specific case of Ferguson I watched the entire grand jury decision, and frankly I didn't feel there was one thing out of place.

Then you don't know how grand juries work or you didn't pay much attention. This has been explained over and over in this thread. The prosecutor threw in the towel and had no intentions of getting an actual indictment.

What happened was tragic, but what happens with police brutality in general not always some systematic hate against Black people.

Oh, oh, there is it! You sure pulled out that strawman quicker than I expected.

[Mavorpen]

Because you haven't given me any other reason to believe otherwise. Simply saying "he was acting suspicious" tells me utterly nothing about how he was actually behaving. The natural conclusion, then, given the context, is that he blatantly profiled Trayvon on a racial basis.

The "natural conclusion" to you, maybe. Here's what Zimmerman told the dispatcher:

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...
Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: Okay, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
Dispatcher: Okay, he's just walking around the area...
Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: Okay...
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.

So basically, my natural conclusion was correct. Nothing specific describing anything "suspicious" was given. I'm not surprised, as it's hard to be specific when the person isn't actually acting suspicious.

[Jamzmania]

The "natural conclusion" to you, maybe. Here's what Zimmerman told the dispatcher:

So basically, my natural conclusion was correct. Nothing specific describing anything "suspicious" was given. I'm not surprised, as it's hard to be specific when the person isn't actually acting suspicious.

You obviously have no intention of accepting anything other than your pre-conceived "natural conclusion."

[Mavorpen]

So basically, my natural conclusion was correct. Nothing specific describing anything "suspicious" was given. I'm not surprised, as it's hard to be specific when the person isn't actually acting suspicious.

You obviously have no intention of accepting anything other than your pre-conceived "natural conclusion."

Nope, I'm entirely willing to do so. If he said that Trayvon was going around and looking into the windows of homes? Sure. But he didn't do anything like that. The most was that he was "up to no good" and "on drugs or something," two things that weren't elaborated on to reach a conclusion that he was actually acting suspicious. "He's just walking around, looking about," is just plain laughably silly, as, yes, people with functional eyes and legs do those things.

[Emile Zola]

So basically, my natural conclusion was correct. Nothing specific describing anything "suspicious" was given. I'm not surprised, as it's hard to be specific when the person isn't actually acting suspicious.

You obviously have no intention of accepting anything other than your pre-conceived "natural conclusion."

That's just the pot calling the kettle... umm... you know what "I mean."

[Alien Space Bats]

Why don't we have a war against crime instead of only giving a damn about an issue when it promotes our agenda?

We DO have a war against crime. That's why we have militarized police forces than act like occupying armies, thereby effectively destroying public trust in the Nation's constabulary institutions, all of which serves to make crime even HARDER to fight, while alienating those populations that are deemed to be "prone to crime" by the authorities.

Don't believe me? Then engage in a little thought experiment. Imagine what a REAL "war on crime" would look like, and then come back here and tell me how it would differ from what we're ALREADY doing.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Because you haven't given me any other reason to believe otherwise. Simply saying "he was acting suspicious" tells me utterly nothing about how he was actually behaving. The natural conclusion, then, given the context, is that he blatantly profiled Trayvon on a racial basis.

The "natural conclusion" to you, maybe. Here's what Zimmerman told the dispatcher:

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...
Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: Okay, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
Dispatcher: Okay, he's just walking around the area...
Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: Okay...
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.

Maybe he was just admiring the scenery? I don't think this really proves that he was acting suspicious.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

snip

The big picture, as I see it, is that black people end up getting killed more by police because they end up interacting with police more than white people do (relative to the entire population) - not that "blacks are getting killed for being black" . In that sense, yes, blacks are getting killed for being black, if you really want to make that argument.

Incidentally, when you have a higher percentage of a certain group finding themselves interacting with police (because of racial profiling), you will end up with a higher percentage of that group who are criminals (or innocent people that for whatever reason refuse to interact civilly with police), well, finding themselves interacting with police.

If 10% of group A are criminals and 10% of group B are criminals, and group A individuals have a 50% chance of coming across a cop, and group B individuals have a 20% chance of coming across a cop, it's obvious that the rate at which group A individuals get force used on them will be higher than that of group B, simply because individuals of group A that would react in a similar violent manner when confronted don't actually end up being confronted at the same rate that group B individuals do.

Perhaps it doesn't explain the entire discrepancy, but it probably explains a considerable part of it.

Now, there is no doubt in my mind that some of the reasoning behind profiling that you described as racist is caused by or correlates with racist stereotypes, but not all of it. For example, is overestimating age really a voluntary/involuntary process based on racial stereotypes, or is it a real incapability of differentiating people? A possible cause may be that facial features (e.g. facial hair, etc.) can be more easily recognized on a lighter background.

Are you really going to make the argument that Zimmerman thinking that Martin was insane or drugged because he was talking through a handsfree set was racially motivated? For one, I'm not aware of any stereotype that insanity is more common in black people. Then again, I'm not fully aware of what Zimmerman alleged his reasoning was based upon.

If the neighborhood was virtually white or mostly white, that's legitimate profiling, especially seeing how it was a gated community. I understand that Martin was temporarily staying there, so there's that.

Was Zimmerman wearing a uniform or some form of identification that could have lead Martin to realize that he was part of the neighborhood watch? Did he try to identify himself as such? I'm not saying you're supposed to be 100% confident in random people, but they're questions worth asking.

We see (mostly young) black boys and men as INHERENTLY dangerous, whether they ACTUALLY are or not; and then we react to that (mis)perceived danger with lethal force; and THEN we only rarely ever punish those who kill them, because we share the same inherent prejudice, and therefore see their "caution" as "understandable". Each of these three things is a travesty, but all three together are an outrage.

Your feeling the need to use 1st person plural here is beyond me. This is the type of shit that makes people rant about white guilt. Do you share that rhetoric? Do I share that rhetoric? Do we even (assuming you were talking about the white race, assuming you're white) share the rhetoric that "they had it coming", in considerable numbers if not a majority? No? Didn't think so either.

But the worst part is this: When the black community and their allies get upset about this state of affairs, we accuse THEM of racism. THEY'RE the "race hustlers", trying to "excuse everything" by "griping" about racism (which we all know is strictly a thing of the past, right?). Why can't these people "accept responsibility for their actions" (IOW, accept that if other people see them as "scary" and kill them because of it, it's THEIR fault)?

Nice strawman there. For what it's worth, there are plenty of racist black people around, and plenty of racist mudslinging from their part esp. after such events. Understandable or not, it's still bullshit that needs to be called for what it is. I still haven't witnessed putting black protesters in the same pot becoming some sort of mainstream white line of thought , so..

As much as I despise racial profiling, the rhetoric that legally putting yourself in a situation which then requires you to use force makes you guilty of anything, is bullshit, frankly. It's victim blaming through and through, and I hope some day everyone understands that.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

... And?

<pause>

Look, living in Southeastern Michigan and married to a Greek-American woman from Chicago, I can tell you that you don't have to be a "hillbilly/redneck KKK"-type white to be a thoroughgoing racist. There are LOTS of Hyphenated-American whites who suffer the disease. My wife's grandfather, a Greek immigrant, despised "n-gg-rs", and his is not the only tale of racist expression I have heard coming out of the Greek community. Detroit's famous Hamtramck neighborhood was massively Polish until racial prejudice-driven white flight emptied out almost all of its white population. I grew up with Serbian-Americans who had a very dim view of blacks, and have heard tales of racist sentiment among their Croatian-American counterparts in Chicago. And are we REALLY supposed to believe that Italian-Americans are above racism?

Not every racist in American is named Billy Bob Cracker. There are lots of racist Millers and Jorgensens and O'Malleys and Kowalskis and Banaceks and Malkoviches and Fontinis; that's one reason why I think that the argument that George Zimmerman "couldn't POSSIBLY have been racist" because he was (half) Hispanic more than a little idiotic.

Besides, as I have said here for close to a year now, unless someone is a declared white supremacist/separatist, it's inappropriate (and counterproductive) to call them a racist. Why? Because it rather misses the point: It's not racist PEOPLE who are the problem; it's racist ATTITUDES, racist IDEAS, and racist BEHAVIOR that are hurting us so badly. Once we realize that people who AREN'T racist can harbor ATTITUDES and IDEAS that ARE (eg., people who listen to rap music are "thugs", black men are inherently criminally dangerous who possess preternatural strength (and can therefore only be safely controlled through the use of overwhelming force [eg., a chokehold] or — worse — become so uncontrollably dangerous in a confrontation that shooting them is the only way to stay alive), black women are natural inclined towards promiscuity and are careless/thoughtless when it comes to child-rearing (hence, the "welfare mama" meme [which has, strangely, now utterly displaced the older "Aunt Jemima" meme], blacks would rather steal or take handouts than work, blacks much more likely to be drug addicts than anybody else, people who wear hoodies and/or baggy jeans are worthy of suspicion, etc., etc., etc.), THEN AND ONLY THEN will we actually begin to start making progress towards eliminating racism in America.

IOW, it's not a certain kind of person that's the problem; it's a certain set of attitudes, and even people who swear (and fervently BELIEVE) they're not racists can (and often do) both cling to and perpetuate said attitudes.

As it stands, we can't even have serious, in depth discussions about race in the mainstream. If you bring up white privilege, the response is, " why do you believe all white people go around calling black people the n word and actively discriminate against them?!" If you bring up racial bias in the criminal justice system, the response is "why do you believe all white cops are KKK members looking for an excuse to hunt down and shoot black people!?" It's a less flashy method of parroting "anti-racist is a code word for anti-white!" where if you recognize that any white person can hold racist beliefs, you must therefore believe that all white people are racists who might as well belong to the KKK.

And it reaches the level where it ends up being a childish refusal to accept responsibility for anything involving race. And so you get terms like "white guilt," where they convince themselves that they don't contribute to the problem. Of course they can't. They aren't racist. They don't belong to a white supremacy group. To recognize their own prejudices and biases is to admit to contributing to the problem. To admit to contributing to the problem is to admit to guilt. And to admit to being guilty places them on the same level as slave owners, since they were the ones responsible for the hardships black people face. The Western interpretation of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" right about sums it up.

..and it reaches the level where it ends up being a childish strawman.

Refusing to accept white guilt is refusing to accept the idea that the collective guilt of all white racists and slave owners ever somehow magically flows into every white child at birth.

I'm not guilty of something I'm not doing and of holding prejudices and biases that you think I'm holding but I'm not.

At most, I might be ignorant if I ignore or deny that racism exists, and at most I might be complacent if I'm OK with letting it go on. Which I'm not.

I've yet to see denying racial differences in the justice system being a mainstream opinion in whites, or denying racial profiling, so yeah, strawman.