Ferguson Megathread

[Alien Space Bats]

... is overestimating age really a voluntary/involuntary process based on racial stereotypes, or is it a real incapability of differentiating people? A possible cause may be that facial features (e.g. facial hair, etc.) can be more easily recognized on a lighter background.

Why do black people seem to have no problem differentiating other black people, or properly estimating the age of black youths and young men? Their eyes are no better or worse at picking out features against a darker background than those of whites...

Are you really going to make the argument that Zimmerman thinking that Martin was insane or drugged because he was talking through a handsfree set was racially motivated?

Yes, I am. Had Trayvon Martin been white, Zimmerman would have likely tried to rationalize some other explanation for a person talking to themselves while walking around, instead of leaping to the conclusion that Martin was "on drugs"

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...
Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: Okay, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
Dispatcher: Okay, he's just walking around the area...
Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: Okay...
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.

This is how human minds work: We fill in the gaps in our perception of what we are seeing in order to form a picture of events that makes sense to us, given our world-view. If one's world-view says that one particular group of people are likelier to use drugs than others, then we are likelier ourselves to sieze upon illegal drug use as an explanation.

For one, I'm not aware of any stereotype that insanity is more common in black people.

But you ARE, I'm sure, aware of the (false) stereotype that black youths use drugs more often than other populations...

Then again, I'm not fully aware of what Zimmerman alleged his reasoning was based upon.

That's a cop-out, and you know it.

If the neighborhood was virtually white or mostly white, that's legitimate profiling, especially seeing how it was a gated community. I understand that Martin was temporarily staying there, so there's that.

Except that the community was racially diverse, and Martin's father lived there. So much for THAT excuse.

Was Zimmerman wearing a uniform or some form of identification that could have lead Martin to realize that he was part of the neighborhood watch?

<pause>

Do you live in America? Or do you just live so far out into the country that you've never seen or heard of a neighborhood watch before?

There is no such thing as a "neighborhood watch uniform" or a "neighborhood watch badge". Such groups have no official standing whatsoever.

Did he try to identify himself as such?

He didn't tell the police that he did; and since the fact that he had done so might have furthered his claim of self-defense, and yet he failed to make any such (self-serving) assertion, we are therefore left with no reason to believe that he ever identified himself as such.

I'm not saying you're supposed to be 100% confident in random people, but they're questions worth asking.

You're reaching.

We see (mostly young) black boys and men as INHERENTLY dangerous, whether they ACTUALLY are or not; and then we react to that (mis)perceived danger with lethal force; and THEN we only rarely ever punish those who kill them, because we share the same inherent prejudice, and therefore see their "caution" as "understandable". Each of these three things is a travesty, but all three together are an outrage.

Your feeling the need to use 1st person plural here is beyond me. This is the type of shit that makes people rant about white guilt. Do you share that rhetoric? Do I share that rhetoric? Do we even (assuming you were talking about the white race, assuming you're white) share the rhetoric that "they had it coming", in considerable numbers if not a majority? No? Didn't think so either.

You fail utterly to understand the pervasiveness of the cultural meme of black criminal dangerousness. By "we" I mean Americans (at the very least, although I suspect the same is true of Britons); and in casting such a broad net, I am asserting something most people who don't think about racism never seem to realize: That racist memes are so deeply embedded in our society that black people share them as well.

And no, I do NOT mean that blacks feel the same way about whites as whites do about blacks; I mean that memes detrimental to our collective perception and judgement of blacks so permeate society that BLACKS often end up holding them as well. THIS is why having more black cops is NOT the solution to the problem of our current high level of lethal incidents involving the police and unarmed black youths or young men: Often blacks fear other blacks almost as much as whites do.

But the worst part is this: When the black community and their allies get upset about this state of affairs, we accuse THEM of racism. THEY'RE the "race hustlers", trying to "excuse everything" by "griping" about racism (which we all know is strictly a thing of the past, right?). Why can't these people "accept responsibility for their actions" (IOW, accept that if other people see them as "scary" and kill them because of it, it's THEIR fault)?

Nice strawman there. For what it's worth, there are plenty of racist black people around, and plenty of racist mudslinging from their part esp. after such events. Understandable or not, it's still bullshit that needs to be called for what it is. I still haven't witnessed putting black protesters in the same pot becoming some sort of mainstream white line of thought , so..

Your little exercise in racial "whataboutism" ("What about black racism against whites?!?!?") not only misses the point, it underscores how little you understand about what's happening here.

As much as I despise racial profiling, the rhetoric that legally putting yourself in a situation which then requires you to use force makes you guilty of anything, is bullshit, frankly. It's victim blaming through and through, and I hope some day everyone understands that.

Are you actually asserting that cops who shoot unarmed black youths and young men are the VICTIMS in all of this?

Your post is a perfect essay on the reason why we're having such difficulties recognizing the ways in which racism still has a negative impact on this country — albeit not in any of the ways that you may have intended.

[Alien Space Bats]

The big picture, as I see it, is that black people end up getting killed more by police because they end up interacting with police more than white people do (relative to the entire population) - not that "blacks are getting killed for being black" . In that sense, yes, blacks are getting killed for being black, if you really want to make that argument.

Incidentally, when you have a higher percentage of a certain group finding themselves interacting with police (because of racial profiling), you will end up with a higher percentage of that group who are criminals (or innocent people that for whatever reason refuse to interact civilly with police), well, finding themselves interacting with police.

If 10% of group A are criminals and 10% of group B are criminals, and group A individuals have a 50% chance of coming across a cop, and group B individuals have a 20% chance of coming across a cop, it's obvious that the rate at which group A individuals get force used on them will be higher than that of group B, simply because individuals of group A that would react in a similar violent manner when confronted don't actually end up being confronted at the same rate that group B individuals do.

Perhaps it doesn't explain the entire discrepancy, but it probably explains a considerable part of it.

And so blacks end up interacting with the police more often than whites because...?

[Mavorpen]

..and it reaches the level where it ends up being a childish strawman.

Thank you for the warning for the rest of your post.

Refusing to accept white guilt is refusing to accept the idea that the collective guilt of all white racists and slave owners ever somehow magically flows into every white child at birth.

I'm perfectly fine with you refusing to accept ideas never actually presented as being true.

I'm not guilty of something I'm not doing and of holding prejudices and biases that you think I'm holding but I'm not.

Never said you are.

At most, I might be ignorant if I ignore or deny that racism exists, and at most I might be complacent if I'm OK with letting it go on. Which I'm not.

Again, never said you are.

I've yet to see denying racial differences in the justice system being a mainstream opinion in whites, or denying racial profiling, so yeah, strawman.

Yet again, not a claim I've ever made. You don't even know what the word strawman actually means, do you? I'll give you a hint: this entire post of yours is a perfect example.

Regardless, we can go through some facts that actually ARE relevant in my actual position rather than the childish caricature you've created.

1. White people believe that prejudice against whites is more serious than bias against blacks.
2. To go in tandem with the thread, more whites think race is getting too much attention in Ferguson .
3. In many facets of America Whites believe that blacks are equal to them when they aren't (including fucking income).

I must thank you for reminding me of something: whites who also ignore that a lot of other white people are blatantly wrong about race and have convinced themselves that we've made more progress than we actually have are really bad. Really, I can't imagine the amount of lacking in social awareness necessary to not be aware of this. I can't go a week without hearing "we have a black president for Christ's sake!" I can't surf the internet for information about Ferguson or any similar situations without seeing "why are these darkies so uppity? Why are they complaining so much?" I can't live life in general without hearing complaints about how race is talked about too much.

Face it, too many white people are just plain bad at this. Too many white people would rather put blindfolds over their eyes when it comes to race rather than acknowledge certain inherent inequalities created by racial bias and discrimination. And the more you entertain these people by minimizing their presence, the more white people that will buy into the Ann Coulter bullshit talking point that because we have a black president, we've largely attained victory and that the "REAL racists" are the ones who even mention race.

Or, you can continue to live in your fantasy world. Your choice

Sauce for the above claims: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... ally-over/

[Jamzmania]

[quote=Alien Space Bats]THIS is why having more black cops is NOT the solution to the problem of our current high level of lethal incidents involving the police and unarmed black youths or young men[/quote]
There is no high level of police shooting unarmed blacks. If you call 123 deaths by police bullets (both armed and unarmed) out of a population of 45 million a high level, well...

[Alien Space Bats]

..and it reaches the level where it ends up being a childish strawman.

Refusing to accept white guilt is refusing to accept the idea that the collective guilt of all white racists and slave owners ever somehow magically flows into every white child at birth.

I'm not guilty of something I'm not doing and of holding prejudices and biases that you think I'm holding but I'm not.

At most, I might be ignorant if I ignore or deny that racism exists, and at most I might be complacent if I'm OK with letting it go on. Which I'm not.

I've yet to see denying racial differences in the justice system being a mainstream opinion in whites, or denying racial profiling, so yeah, strawman.

I've never seen a claim of strawman construction been used as a strawman before. Impressive.

<pause>

First, "white guilt" is a phrase that conservatives have coined in order to justify their not giving a damn about matters of race and/or still harboring racist attitudes; it is actually both simultaneously one of the most childish and one of the most offensive claims I have ever encountered, and your assertion that said "white guilt" is what's driving liberal support for "race hustling" is thus offensive to the point of being obscene.

You repeatedly refuse to grasp the essence of what we are saying, to the point where I'm beginning to think there's no further purpose to be had in continuing to talk about it. I'll spell it out to you one more time in order to make the whole thing crystal clear before those of us who are frustrated in your failure to comprehend the issues involved here end up pulling the plug on the conversation:

1. The overarching problem here is NOT with old-fashioned white supremacists trying to keep The Black Man™ down; the problem is with the existence of a great many stubborn societal stereotypes (I've been using the sociologists' term "meme") that are detrimental to the black population (eg., black men are more prone to violence and criminal behavior, black women are more promiscuous and less responsible in their child-rearing habits, blacks are more inclined towards drug use, blacks are less inclined towards hard work and industry in favor or crime or handouts, black culture is inherently broken/dysfunctional, etc., etc., etc.) that are continually perpetuated through various social mechanisms (eg., word of mouth, the media, pop culture, etc.) and thus end up infecting the minds of ALL Americans unless we strive actively to resist their pernicious impact. Eliminating racism within our society is going to require each and every one of us (white, black, or whatever, because these memes are transferred to us culturally, and we're ALL swimming in the same cultural soup here) to first confront these memes in ourselves, and then to challenge them in others whenever and wherever we encounter them. We needed to overcome similar memes to defeat homophobia (eg., homosexuality is a form of mental illness and/or a symptom of deliberate moral depravity, all gay men are pedophiles, you can identify a gay man or lesbian woman by their dress and mannerisms, homosexuals "recruit" young people to their lifestyle because they can't reproduce, etc., etc., etc.), and the same kind of concerted effort will be needed to vanquish racism as well.
   
   
2. Whites (if not people overall) have a problem recognizing the difference between flawed behavior and flawed character; this makes them hypersensitive to criticism that they are harboring racist memes. Not wanting to think of themselves as "bad people" and being unable to separate their thoughts and behavior from their essential identities (IOW, being generally unable to embrace the idea that good people sometimes do bad things through temporary moral and/or intellectual failure [or simply not knowing any better]), they angrily reject the idea that they "are racist" instead of realizing that they have racist notions that need to exorcised in order to make them better people. This problem is magnified by the way in which racism is generally depicted as the modern equivalent of a venal sin; by branding racism as an intolerable horror, we inadvertently so raise the stakes of the game as to make self-identification of racist thoughts and feelings to great a burden for people to bear.
   
   The result is that we deflect, deny, and bury our involvement in maintaining and perpetuating these harmful social memes, rather than confronting and overcoming them. We're not racists, we live in a post-racial society (I mean, we have a black PRESIDENT, for God's sake), whites who acknowledge that racism exists are degenerates afflicted by "white guilt", and those who rail against racism are "race hustlers". End of story, end of progress.

Until you understand the social and psychological dynamics of the problem, you'll never be able to see it. And right now, failing to understand the very nature of the problem is precisely where you are.

[The New Sea Territory]

There is no high level of police shooting unarmed blacks. If you call 123 deaths by police bullets (both armed and unarmed) out of a population of 45 million a high level, well...

Source?

[Alien Space Bats]

THIS is why having more black cops is NOT the solution to the problem of our current high level of lethal incidents involving the police and unarmed black youths or young men

There is no high level of police shooting unarmed blacks. If you call 123 deaths by police bullets (both armed and unarmed) out of a population of 45 million a high level, well...

What's the rate at which unarmed whites are shot to death by police, relative to the size of the white population?

For that matter, what's the rate at which unarmed citizens are shot dead by the police who are sworn to protect them in other countries?

<pause>

What you appear to be saying is: "There's nothing to see here, move along. And get over it."

Well, sorry, but that's unacceptable. Even if it's "only one or two" dead unarmed black boys killed by overzealous and careless police officers every week, week in and week out, come what may.

So I have a simple question: Why is it too fucking much to ask that police stop gunning down people (white or black, because unarmed whites sometimes get gunned down as well [if not often]) on a regular basis? Why should this shit even be tolerated, and why shouldn't police officers be held accountable when it DOES happen?

[Mavorpen]

First, "white guilt" is a phrase that conservatives have coined in order to justify their not giving a damn about matters of race and/or still harboring racist attitudes; it is actually both simultaneously one of the most childish and one of the most offensive claims I have ever encountered, and your assertion that said "white guilt" is what's driving liberal support for "race hustling" is thus offensive to the point of being obscene.

To expand on that, we (black people) are against "white guilt." We don't want white people to feel "white guilt." And the reason is simple: it's counterproductive.

Making white people feel guilty only makes it less likely they will do anything to fix any potential biases they may have or contribute to ending discrimination or prejudices. Because it makes the situation about them rather than the victims of discrimination. They feel an obligation to be accepted by us. They feel an obligation to not be considered racist in the wrong ways. So you get the "I have black friends!" meme. Because they take issue on an unnecessarily personal level to the point where miniscule issues like not having many minority friends overshadow more serious problems.

Some white people have figured this out and fight against it for these very reasons. Others, however, fight against it for different reasons. They fight against it by making it even more personal. They play to those who have felt guilty and those who fear feeling guilty, and scaremonger white people into believing in a boogeyman: that if you accept racism is still a major issue, you'll feel guilty, and that's awful! And people like DnalweN acilbupeR are, ironically, being played beautifully by racists.

[Big Jim P]

The big picture, as I see it, is that black people end up getting killed more by police because they end up interacting with police more than white people do (relative to the entire population) - not that "blacks are getting killed for being black" . In that sense, yes, blacks are getting killed for being black, if you really want to make that argument.

Incidentally, when you have a higher percentage of a certain group finding themselves interacting with police (because of racial profiling), you will end up with a higher percentage of that group who are criminals (or innocent people that for whatever reason refuse to interact civilly with police), well, finding themselves interacting with police.

If 10% of group A are criminals and 10% of group B are criminals, and group A individuals have a 50% chance of coming across a cop, and group B individuals have a 20% chance of coming across a cop, it's obvious that the rate at which group A individuals get force used on them will be higher than that of group B, simply because individuals of group A that would react in a similar violent manner when confronted don't actually end up being confronted at the same rate that group B individuals do.

Perhaps it doesn't explain the entire discrepancy, but it probably explains a considerable part of it.

And so blacks end up interacting with the police more often than whites because...?

Because they are perceived to be more likely to be criminals. A classic example of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

[Jamzmania]

And so blacks end up interacting with the police more often than whites because...?

Because they are perceived to be more likely to be criminals. A classic example of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Crime is higher in poor areas. Poor areas often have a lot of blacks.

[The New Sea Territory]

Because they are perceived to be more likely to be criminals. A classic example of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Crime is higher in poor areas. Poor areas often have a lot of blacks.

"You know how they are".

Typical cryptoracist argument.

[Jamzmania]

Crime is higher in poor areas. Poor areas often have a lot of blacks.

"You know how they are".

Typical cryptoracist argument.

It's also a fact that crime is unproportionally high among blacks. Police patrol where the crime is, and that is often black neighborhoods.

[Jamzmania]

There is no high level of police shooting unarmed blacks. If you call 123 deaths by police bullets (both armed and unarmed) out of a population of 45 million a high level, well...

Source?

The CDC.

[Nazi Flower Power]

"You know how they are".

Typical cryptoracist argument.

It's also a fact that crime is unproportionally high among blacks. Police patrol where the crime is, and that is often black neighborhoods.

Police also stop blacks more often when they make "random" stops. The problem is not when they stop black people who they have a legitimate reason to suspect of a crime. It's when they stop black people that were minding their own business.

[Jamzmania]

It's also a fact that crime is unproportionally high among blacks. Police patrol where the crime is, and that is often black neighborhoods.

Police also stop blacks more often when they make "random" stops. The problem is not when they stop black people who they have a legitimate reason to suspect of a crime. It's when they stop black people that were minding their own business.

If you're doing random stops and there's mostly black folk around, I wonder what race will be stopped more often?

[Mavorpen]

Police also stop blacks more often when they make "random" stops. The problem is not when they stop black people who they have a legitimate reason to suspect of a crime. It's when they stop black people that were minding their own business.

If you're doing random stops and there's mostly black folk around, I wonder what race will be stopped more often?

The fact you had to strawman his post and limit it to only situations where the majority are black demonstrates that you're probably aware you're wrong but desperately don't want to admit it.

[Islamic State of UKIP]

Police also stop blacks more often when they make "random" stops. The problem is not when they stop black people who they have a legitimate reason to suspect of a crime. It's when they stop black people that were minding their own business.

If you're doing random stops and there's mostly black folk around, I wonder what race will be stopped more often?

Dearborn, Michigan is predominately Middle Eastern. The majority of "random" stops are black. Explain. This is a northern city, not a southern one

[Jamzmania]

If you're doing random stops and there's mostly black folk around, I wonder what race will be stopped more often?

The fact you had to strawman his post and limit it to only situations where the majority are black demonstrates that you're probably aware you're wrong but desperately don't want to admit it.

I was following the theme of the last few posts. And do you even know what a strawman is?

[Mavorpen]

I was following the theme of the last few posts.

The theme of which was being questioned. That point flew over your head and resulted in you erecting a strawman.

And do you even know what a strawman is?

Yes. Do you?

[Gauthier]

Police also stop blacks more often when they make "random" stops. The problem is not when they stop black people who they have a legitimate reason to suspect of a crime. It's when they stop black people that were minding their own business.

If you're doing random stops and there's mostly black folk around, I wonder what race will be stopped more often?

And let's pretend there's no such thing as Shopping While Black either. Nope, it's just dem welfare moochers having an atittude of entitlement and refusing to accept responsibility amirite?

Barneys busted student for ‘shopping while black’

John Crawford Tragically Killed ‘Shopping While Black’ And Holding a Toy Gun

[Gauthier]

If you're doing random stops and there's mostly black folk around, I wonder what race will be stopped more often?

Dearborn, Michigan is predominately Middle Eastern. The majority of "random" stops are black. Explain. This is a northern city, not a southern one

They're waiting for Homeland Security backup before they start stopping Middle Easterners?

[Pragia]

If you're doing random stops and there's mostly black folk around, I wonder what race will be stopped more often?

And let's pretend there's no such thing as Shopping While Black either. Nope, it's just dem welfare moochers having an atittude of entitlement and refusing to accept responsibility amirite?

Barneys busted student for ‘shopping while black’

John Crawford Tragically Killed ‘Shopping While Black’ And Holding a Toy Gun

Wow, what an amazingly irrelevant response! So, please tell me what these tragic events mean at all other than to set up a straw man and pointlessly shoot it down?

Now, please explain to me how the about a dozen cases that have been brought up over the course of this thread invalidate the service of thousands of officers, and immediately make all of them black-killing racists?

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

And let's pretend there's no such thing as Shopping While Black either. Nope, it's just dem welfare moochers having an atittude of entitlement and refusing to accept responsibility amirite?

Barneys busted student for ‘shopping while black’

John Crawford Tragically Killed ‘Shopping While Black’ And Holding a Toy Gun

Wow, what an amazingly irrelevant response! So, please tell me what these tragic events mean at all other than to set up a straw man and pointlessly shoot it down?

Now, please explain to me how the about a dozen cases that have been brought up over the course of this thread invalidate the service of thousands of officers, and immediately make all of them black-killing racists?

That's an impressively dense thing to say. Honestly, I don't think I could keep a straight face while attacking a strawman that blatantly. No person has argued in this thread any of those things, and I'm honestly a little insulted that you think the average reader won't see through such a transparent attempt to discredit the opposition.

[Gauthier]

And let's pretend there's no such thing as Shopping While Black either. Nope, it's just dem welfare moochers having an atittude of entitlement and refusing to accept responsibility amirite?

Barneys busted student for ‘shopping while black’

John Crawford Tragically Killed ‘Shopping While Black’ And Holding a Toy Gun

Wow, what an amazingly irrelevant response! So, please tell me what these tragic events mean at all other than to set up a straw man and pointlessly shoot it down?

Now, please explain to me how the about a dozen cases that have been brought up over the course of this thread invalidate the service of thousands of officers, and immediately make all of them black-killing racists?

As was pointed out, nice strawman. Also, you're channeling Dick Cheney defending the CIA's tortures as being a vital service to the country.

[Pragia]

Wow, what an amazingly irrelevant response! So, please tell me what these tragic events mean at all other than to set up a straw man and pointlessly shoot it down?

Now, please explain to me how the about a dozen cases that have been brought up over the course of this thread invalidate the service of thousands of officers, and immediately make all of them black-killing racists?

That's an impressively dense thing to say. Honestly, I don't think I could keep a straight face while attacking a strawman that blatantly. No person has argued in this thread any of those things, and I'm honestly a little insulted that you think the average reader won't see through such a transparent attempt to discredit the opposition.

I can't tell if half the things Gauthier has said are actual opinions or satire, I'll try to dig up a quote, but I'm fairly sure something along those lines were said here.

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