"Get Off Of My Side!": Embarrassing Allies

[Anglo-California]

Russophiles, Neo-Confederates, and skinheads.

[Meowfoundland]

Greens who buy into pseudoscience and other mumbo-jumbo crap.

[Meryuma]

Yep, that's true. The MRA argument is little more than the feminists have gotten too radical and then proceed to become almost as misogynistic as the radical feminists are misandrist.

"Almost"? Only the worst, most reactionary second-wave feminists can match the vitriol of fairly "mainstream" MRA groups (online at least).

Greens who buy into pseudoscience and other mumbo-jumbo crap.

This is even more of an issue when you're a radical environmentalist.

[Blood Wine]

I'm a MRA and I hate it when they overgeneralize feminism - I'm more in it for the proper presentation of men in major debates rather then letting the bystander effect take it's course

Like "men's rights" required "activism" lol

It actually does,people presume men are represented in all debates which is caused by the bystander effect

I have honestly yet to be exposed to an "MRA" movement that is not acting entirely as a troll/annihilation movement against feminism.

/r/mensrights is pretty good in that regard,although I do have to call out some overgeneralizing jackasses in the movement at time although it's far from a majority

Yep, that's true. The MRA argument is little more than the feminists have gotten too radical and then proceed to become almost as misogynistic as the radical feminists are misandrist.

Ho there,slam on the brake for a moment

It's true to some extent that MRA is about containing modern feminism (note the modern part here) so it doesn't go through the roof,but MRA is about so much more like circumcision and false rape accusations - the latter has improve as of late by putting the burden of proof on the accuser rather then the accused so that courts don't rule in favor of the accuser when it's his word against hers and actually requiring evidence for an conviction
Moreso the entire court system in biased towards protecting women,especially when dealing with custody

There are good feminists,when I say "modern feminism" I mean the pure toxic kind of feminist who wants female superiority rather then equality

[Imperializt Russia]

I have honestly yet to be exposed to an "MRA" movement that is not acting entirely as a troll/annihilation movement against feminism.

Oh I don't think the MRA movement, as a group, is worth a damn - as I said earlier.

But whether there are men's rights issues that need activism is a whole other thing. That's a resounding and trumpeting "yes!"

This is why feminists tell me men should participate in feminism.

[Blood Wine]

Oh I don't think the MRA movement, as a group, is worth a damn - as I said earlier.

But whether there are men's rights issues that need activism is a whole other thing. That's a resounding and trumpeting "yes!"

This is why feminists tell me men should participate in feminism.

Really? so feminist lobbying for courts to put the burden of proof on the accused to disprove rape claims is somehow good for mensrights? or do they lobby for equal consideration for custody rights? or circumcision?

[Revanchism]

Yep, that's true. The MRA argument is little more than the feminists have gotten too radical and then proceed to become almost as misogynistic as the radical feminists are misandrist.

"Almost"? Only the worst, most reactionary second-wave feminists can match the vitriol of fairly "mainstream" MRA groups (online at least).

Greens who buy into pseudoscience and other mumbo-jumbo crap.

This is even more of an issue when you're a radical environmentalist.

It's even worse when you live(d) in a commune.

[Laerod]

As far as a kid is concerned that's an utterly valid position to hold. Further more violence is violence. The lesson a kid learns is that if you're mad, it's ok to hit someone, that might makes right, and that violence is an acceptable means to resolve a dispute. Better to err on the side of not doing it at all.

Accepted psychological analysis and child development theories say that you are full of it but that's fine, some hippie naturalist author disagrees with that so you should go follow that advice.

Don't lie:

A growing body of research has shown that spanking and other forms of physical discipline can pose serious risks to children, but many parents aren’t hearing the message.

“It’s a very controversial area even though the research is extremely telling and very clear and consistent about the negative effects on children,” says Sandra Graham-Bermann, PhD, a psychology professor and principal investigator for the Child Violence and Trauma Laboratory at the University of Michigan. “People get frustrated and hit their kids. Maybe they don’t see there are other options.”

Many studies have shown that physical punishment — including spanking, hitting and other means of causing pain — can lead to increased aggression, antisocial behavior, physical injury and mental health problems for children. Americans’ acceptance of physical punishment has declined since the 1960s, yet surveys show that two-thirds of Americans still approve of parents spanking their kids.

But spanking doesn’t work, says Alan Kazdin, PhD, a Yale University psychology professor and director of the Yale Parenting Center and Child Conduct Clinic. “You cannot punish out these behaviors that you do not want,” says Kazdin, who served as APA president in 2008. “There is no need for corporal punishment based on the research. We are not giving up an effective technique. We are saying this is a horrible thing that does not work.”

[Dakini]

This is why feminists tell me men should participate in feminism.

Really? so feminist lobbying for courts to put the burden of proof on the accused to disprove rape claims is somehow good for mensrights?

I'm genuinely confused by this question. Do you live in a country where people are guilty until proven innocent beyond a reasonable doubt or something? The way the courts in many highly developed countries currently work is that the burden of proof is on the state (the accuser does not prosecute cases) to prove that a crime has occurred and that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

In addition, considering the extremely low conviction rate (and even the low prosecution rate) of rape, there seem to be other issues with how rape is prosecuted which do not include "men are always presumed guilty", since this has basically never been the case. Indeed, there are instances where men are very obviously guilty of sexual assault who did not suffer legal consequences (e.g. that case where some high school boys filmed their sexual assault of a very obviously passed out high school girl) and the greater community lashed out at the victims for any non-legal consequences faced by the accused.

or do they lobby for equal consideration for custody rights?

As it stands now, men win custody of their children when they fight for it more often than not (ASB had a series of links at some point), but most custody agreements are settled by the parents in arbitration, not by the courts. It's definitely the case that many feminists are concerned that men do not consider themselves good enough parents and thus do not apply for primary custody of their children, but this is also wrapped with issues where women are more likely to take time off work to tend to sick children, are more likely to do housework after a full day of work outside the home and other issues where parenting skills are unequally shared (perhaps if most households were more equitable in sharing tasks in the home when a couple is together, more men would feel sufficiently confident to apply for primary guardianship when the couple gets a divorce).

or circumcision?

Personally, I'm opposed to routine infant circumcision, but it's also not something that's super routine in Canada, where I'm from so there's never been a need for me to lobby against it. I generally think that children should get to decide what body modifications they undergo, though.

[Rupudska]

The mouths of a surprising number of libertarians seem to have a magical ability to attract the speaker's foot.

[Barraco Barner]

Well, when you're Obama, many a thing can happen with your "allies".

[The New Sea Territory]

Left-wingers who actually think that the soviet union was a communist entity.

It was a Socialist state working towards Communism.

Except it practiced state capitalism and took no steps towards communism.

[Ashmoria]

so you are for non-racist fascism?

Not really, I just find the excessive biological determinism and whining about Jews annoying.

lol

I agree with you there. I hope that doesn't embarrass you.

[Galloism]

Oh I don't think the MRA movement, as a group, is worth a damn - as I said earlier.

But whether there are men's rights issues that need activism is a whole other thing. That's a resounding and trumpeting "yes!"

This is why feminists tell me men should participate in feminism.

The problem is that quite a few feminists, at least within the context of NSG, have massive doublethink in this regard:

When backed against the wall on an equality issue they can't deny, they recommend feminism. If you actually try to get feminists or feminism to act on these issues, they sarcastically ask "what about the menz??" (No, seriously, that's a word for word quote)

In short, on the one hand (MRAs), you have a movement mostly concerned with attacking feminism, for which I have very little interest and, on the other hand, a group that steadfastly refuses to actually combat sexism against men and actively undermines research designed to understand breadth and scope at worst, or pays inactive lip service to it claiming they wish to abolish the patriarchy or some such at best.

It's one the clear and tragic proofs that, if no one addresses an issue, it does not get fixed.

[Dakini]

This is why feminists tell me men should participate in feminism.

The problem is that quite a few feminists, at least within the context of NSG, have massive doublethink in this regard:

When backed against the wall on an equality issue they can't deny, they recommend feminism. If you actually try to get feminists or feminism to act on these issues, they sarcastically ask "what about the menz??" (No, seriously, that's a word for word quote)

In short, on the one hand (MRAs), you have a movement mostly concerned with attacking feminism, for which I have very little interest and, on the other hand, a group that steadfastly refuses to actually combat sexism against men and actively undermines research designed to understand breadth and scope at worst, or pays inactive lip service to it claiming they wish to abolish the patriarchy or some such at best.

It's one the clear and tragic proofs that, if no one addresses an issue, it does not get fixed.

You know, if you made threads about men's issues instead of just hijacking threads about women's issues, people wouldn't hassle you about asking "what about the menz?".

I mean, when the International Men's day came along, nobody (not even you) made threads about it, I knew about it because my feminist friends were posting articles about men's mental health issues, toxic masculinity and other issues that men face, but when I make a thread about an MRA group trying to defraud a charity focusing on women, you're right there, hijacking away.

[Galloism]

The problem is that quite a few feminists, at least within the context of NSG, have massive doublethink in this regard:

When backed against the wall on an equality issue they can't deny, they recommend feminism. If you actually try to get feminists or feminism to act on these issues, they sarcastically ask "what about the menz??" (No, seriously, that's a word for word quote)

In short, on the one hand (MRAs), you have a movement mostly concerned with attacking feminism, for which I have very little interest and, on the other hand, a group that steadfastly refuses to actually combat sexism against men and actively undermines research designed to understand breadth and scope at worst, or pays inactive lip service to it claiming they wish to abolish the patriarchy or some such at best.

It's one the clear and tragic proofs that, if no one addresses an issue, it does not get fixed.

You know, if you made threads about men's issues instead of just hijacking threads about women's issues, people wouldn't hassle you about asking "what about the menz?".

I mean, when the International Men's day came along, nobody (not even you) made threads about it, I knew about it because my feminist friends were posting articles about men's mental health issues, toxic masculinity and other issues that men face, but when I make a thread about an MRA group trying to defraud a charity focusing on women, you're right there, hijacking away.

It was relevant, but I'm not here to defend myself from your perceived slight. You had a nice circle jerk going and it evolved into a real debate. Sorry about that.

Quite frankly, I didn't even know there was an international men's day - apparently it's that poorly publicized, and I have posted relevant threads on the subject, as have others.

I'm trying to figure how to search for threads only where I'm the OP, but I can't seem to make it do that.

[Dakini]

You know, if you made threads about men's issues instead of just hijacking threads about women's issues, people wouldn't hassle you about asking "what about the menz?".

I mean, when the International Men's day came along, nobody (not even you) made threads about it, I knew about it because my feminist friends were posting articles about men's mental health issues, toxic masculinity and other issues that men face, but when I make a thread about an MRA group trying to defraud a charity focusing on women, you're right there, hijacking away.

It was relevant, but I'm not here to defend myself from your perceived slight. You had a nice circle jerk going and it evolved into a real debate. Sorry about that.

You really didn't add anything of substance that was relevant to the thread and spent most of the time hijacking it instead of making your own since you apparently wanted to talk about something else, so I wouldn't pat yourself too hard on the back for that.

Quite frankly, I didn't even know there was an international men's day - apparently it's that poorly publicized, and I have posted relevant threads on the subject, as have others.

I'm trying to figure how to search for threads only where I'm the OP, but I can't seem to make it do that.

[url=http://forum.nationstates.net/search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=Galloism&fid[]=20&sc=1&sf=firstpost&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search]Here[/url].

Ugh. sorry, you'll have to c/p that because someone decided the search urls should have square brackets that break BBC code.

edit: Also, how can you, as someone who purports to care about men, not be aware that there's a day dedicated to thinking about men's issues. I mean, even Buzzfeed was full of articles.

[Galloism]

It was relevant, but I'm not here to defend myself from your perceived slight. You had a nice circle jerk going and it evolved into a real debate. Sorry about that.

You really didn't add anything of substance that was relevant to the thread and spent most of the time hijacking it instead of making your own since you apparently wanted to talk about something else, so I wouldn't pat yourself too hard on the back for that.

Quite frankly, I didn't even know there was an international men's day - apparently it's that poorly publicized, and I have posted relevant threads on the subject, as have others.

I'm trying to figure how to search for threads only where I'm the OP, but I can't seem to make it do that.

[url=http://forum.nationstates.net/search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=Galloism&fid[]=20&sc=1&sf=firstpost&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search]Here[/url].

Ugh. sorry, you'll have to c/p that because someone decided the search urls should have square brackets that break BBC code.

The jerks.

It appears your criticism is apropos in this case me making a thread specifically to deal with one of these issues: I've not made that many new threads in the past couple years, and I haven't made a single one on men's issues since 2012 (although I'm glad I perused it anyway - the trailer hitch thread, although short, made me laugh all over again. One completely forgot about it. ) I've been mostly harping on racism, corporate corruption, and the IRS.

I should correct that.

[Dakini]

You really didn't add anything of substance that was relevant to the thread and spent most of the time hijacking it instead of making your own since you apparently wanted to talk about something else, so I wouldn't pat yourself too hard on the back for that.


[url=http://forum.nationstates.net/search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=Galloism&fid[]=20&sc=1&sf=firstpost&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search]Here[/url].

Ugh. sorry, you'll have to c/p that because someone decided the search urls should have square brackets that break BBC code.

The jerks.

It appears your criticism is apropos in this case me making a thread specifically to deal with one of these issues: I've not made that many new threads in the past couple years, and I haven't made a single one on men's issues since 2012 (although I'm glad I perused it anyway - the trailer hitch thread, although short, made me laugh all over again. One completely forgot about it. ) I've been mostly harping on racism, corporate corruption, and the IRS.

I should correct that.

tbh, I'm into 2010 and still haven't seen one.

[Transyl]

I am embarrassed to be around anyone who thinks they're always right, when they are just down right wrong. For example my brother. My brother once was arguing with someone about cheetahs..Idk why but it happened when me and him and my friend were all hanging out together one day. My brother tried saying cheetahs had stripes..my friend said no, they have spots you idiot. He argued with her for over an hour, I don't know how many times I hit my head on my hand in embarrassment but after the argument was over my forehead was bruised..Sheesh everybody knows that cheetahs have spots. To this day he still thinks he's right.

[Galloism]

The jerks.

It appears your criticism is apropos in this case me making a thread specifically to deal with one of these issues: I've not made that many new threads in the past couple years, and I haven't made a single one on men's issues since 2012 (although I'm glad I perused it anyway - the trailer hitch thread, although short, made me laugh all over again. One completely forgot about it. ) I've been mostly harping on racism, corporate corruption, and the IRS.

I should correct that.

tbh, I'm into 2010 and still haven't seen one.

My threads are rarely named with direct headlines. I like to be humorous.

My thread from may 2012 about reformation of the child support system is mainly a men's issue. Among women, even women who have lost custody of their children, being required to pay child support is pretty rare.

[Eleanor Ritas]

It appears your criticism is apropos in this case me making a thread specifically to deal with one of these issues: I've not made that many new threads in the past couple years, and I haven't made a single one on men's issues since 2012 (although I'm glad I perused it anyway - the trailer hitch thread, although short, made me laugh all over again. One completely forgot about it. ) I've been mostly harping on racism, corporate corruption, and the IRS.

I should correct that.

Would you care to collaborate on a discussion of MRA's?

You're clearly educated and fairly sharp, and we could post a joint OP (under my nation or yours, but it would be stated that it was joint and that we are inviting others to peacefully join a cogent debate between us on what what is being done to men in this country).

I think two people entering into the discussion with a gentlemen's agreement to keep it about the issues and facts, to do it fairly and without making it personal, could lead to a solid debate. If I compose my half of the OP and post it, will you send me what you want edited into the OP as your half?

[Ifreann]

I am embarrassed to be around anyone who thinks they're always right, when they are just down right wrong. For example my brother. My brother once was arguing with someone about cheetahs..Idk why but it happened when me and him and my friend were all hanging out together one day. My brother tried saying cheetahs had stripes..my friend said no, they have spots you idiot. He argued with her for over an hour, I don't know how many times I hit my head on my hand in embarrassment but after the argument was over my forehead was bruised..Sheesh everybody knows that cheetahs have spots. To this day he still thinks he's right.

You couldn't just show him a picture of a cheetah?

[Dakini]

tbh, I'm into 2010 and still haven't seen one.

My threads are rarely named with direct headlines. I like to be humorous.

My thread from may 2012 about reformation of the child support system is mainly a men's issue. Among women, even women who have lost custody of their children, being required to pay child support is pretty rare.

Of my friends whose mothers ended up with custody (partial and eventually full when their fathers lost interest), it seems like fathers actually having to pay child support is also pretty fucking rare.

[Venatorium]

I guess we should be thankful that Hitler had an ally like Italy. They were shooting themselves in the foot the whole war.