"Get Off Of My Side!": Embarrassing Allies

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

... and we have had people say that in seriousness on nationstates before. Poe's law.

I grew tired of edgy new atheism at age 13. Can't believe some people.

[Mesrane]

Same goes for militia members who think the banks put fluoride in our toe nails.

Or that Obama's drones are dropping chem trails in our air.

And that. Probably describes the same subset though

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=%2Fs

I also don't read urban dictionary.

"Indicates the presence of sarcasm."

[The Orson Empire]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=%2Fs

I also don't read urban dictionary.

Okay then. How is that relative to my post?

[Galloism]

I also don't read urban dictionary.

Okay then. How is that relative to my post?

Just explaining why /s didn't mean anything to me.

[Genivaria]

1 word.
PETA.

[Shaggai]

Okay then. How is that relative to my post?

Just explaining why /s didn't mean anything to me.

It's not solely an Urban Dictionary thing. It's fairly common here.

[Murkwood]

Pat Buchanan and I are both Republicans, Conservatives, and Catholics. He's also a huge anti-Semitic, Putin-loving, Lindbergh-Isolationist jerk.

Pat Buchanan is my homeboy.

Of course.

[Simply Tyrone]

Politically? None. Crew-wise?

...

Yeah.

[California Prime]

2--hippie types who treat spanking a child like it is brutal torture

Why should we respect someone that can't come up with a way to discipline their child that doesn't involve violence?

Maybe you should respect the fact that other people don't have your sensibilities. You display the same thinking as the types that I pointed out, no understanding of degrees of application of force, you might as well be arguing that a shove is equal to a punch in the face with brass knuckles, after all, in your overly simplistic view violence is violence.

[Carbon based lifeforms]

I'm against affirmative action. Most of those who agree with me on that are sexists. It's pretty sad.

[Meryuma]

Straight couples holding hands in the street? Guys talking about their girlfriends at school? What perverts! No wonder their families would disown them!

Two words. Pride Parade.

When straight couples march near-naked in parades and make out to get attention on tacky floats while waving inflatable phallic imagry and mocking or putting down their primary dissidents, I'll consider taking your ludicrous claim that it's the same seriously.

Suggestive and objectifying heterosexual content is literally everywhere, though. Ever seen beer ads? Men's fashion ads? Axe commercials? Rap videos? Like half of video games? Gays are no more salacious than straights.

If gay people didn't go to parades half naked, would you acknowledge our sexuality as being as legitimate as yours?

That is the problem with the militant in your face gay pride types. (You can be proud and open but not militant, and respectful of the opinions of others). Their aims and goals are actually contrary to the goals of most LGBT people. They in many cases actually hurt or offend other LGBT people.

As a queer guy who's spent a pretty huge block of my youth hanging out in specifically queer contexts and spaces, this is certainly untrue.

[Tlik]

As a Christian... A lot of people.

Politically? Tbh, I'd probably argue that many of Labour's current British politicians are pretty embarrassing for left-wing politics in the UK. Not necessarily in terms of their policies, although I'd argue that the constant attempts to win back UKIP voters and the like are kinda irritating, but more in terms of character and appearance. Ed Miliband, I'm sure, is a lovely person, but no-one will vote for him. The vote Labour is going to get will be entirely for party loyalty and "keeping the tories out".

[Revanchism]

Right-libertarians claiming to be anarchists; also transphobic radical feminists and radical environmentalists. GTFO oppressors.

Meryuma hits the nail on the head again.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Right-libertarians claiming to be anarchists; also transphobic radical feminists and radical environmentalists. GTFO oppressors.

Meryuma hits the nail on the head again.

moar like Meryummy

[Meryuma]

Meryuma hits the nail on the head again.

moar like Meryummy

Ayy, comrades...

[Squalus]

As a bit of an environmentalist who tends to lean right on other domestic issues, I find myself having to choose between degenerate hippies and reckless conservatives far too often.

[Tahar Joblis]

There is a lot of overlap between TERFs and misandrism. To a large degree, the latter creates the former. The identity of transwomen as women, the role of transwomen in the feminist movement, and the sense that transwomen are in some fashion "infiltrating" the female gender role from the outside is not a problem unless you are already sexist to the degree that you believe that male perspectives should be devalued, male voices should be silenced, and men are generically predators of women.

Weirdly enough, I've seen radfems friendly to transphobic cis men.

People who are political lesbians while being married to men, and dismissing bi people...

You can hate a class of people, or have very negative views of that class of people as a class, while being individually friends with some members of that class. I once read an interview with a male friend of Valerie Solanas - she more or less promised him that he would be the last one up against the wall. Andrea Dworkin also had a long-term male partner.

Their movement is really a right-wing void of utter nonsense, so they are concerned with upholding known values and essentialism much more than trying to crush men. 70-80% of the usual TERF blogs in my language, when they name a villain people must fight, talk about trans people rather than [cis] [hetero] men. They don't go on stating much further from common opinion with an added cup of lemon and another of vinegar when they do so, when compared to most of feminism.

This is in line with my experience with TERFs, they will appropriate issues they understand poorly pioneered by other activism to blame trans people somehow: http://intersexroadshow.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/trans-exclusionary-radical-feminists.html

If you are an egalitarian who thinks that transwomen aren't real women, you don't really have much to get excited about or angry about. If you're treating men and women as fully equal beings with the same rights and privileges, then treating a woman like a man or vice versa is little imposition to you in most cases.

That's a lie. I've encountered enormously transphobic and binarist egalitarians out there.

Hell, I know of a cisgender woman who pits trans women, travesti women and third gender travestis against non-binary people with plenty of toxic language because of a few bad grudges (many of them related to our community being white-majority and supposedly disinterested in people who can't access middle class/non-peripheral white spaces, another ones led by her intense derails such as a belief that half of people she knew in the scene swallow pedophile activism).

I would say that they're not really egalitarian, but it would smack of a "No True Scotsman."

So I'll rephrase things this way. The figures I listed? They have espoused versions of feminist theory that are, at root, misandrist; and it is precisely the anti-male rhetoric that they have deployed against trans individuals when they have done so.

Robin Morgan. (In that case leading to a certain number of what are now called TERFs to assault a transwoman.)
Andrea Dworkin.

You can, I suppose, have a non-gender-ideology-related reason for being transphobic, for one or another version of the term. Haters will hate, as the saying goes.

However, if you are a misandrist radical feminist, transphobia fits neatly into a little ideological slot complete with pre-existing justifications; and the primary shield for transphobia within the feminist movement has been androphobia - because while transphobia is not widely accepted across the entire movement, it is acceptable to display androphobia and do nearly anything on the basis of androphobia. Even if it is irrational for your androphobia to be invoked, because you're supposed to think of that particular person as a woman.

Dworkin met the criteria for being a TERF. So did Robin Morgan. So did (then) and still do (now) a significant number of radical feminists who insist on ascribing male privilege to transwomen. Yes, perhaps the most virulent TERFs will blame everything on trans... but those very prominent radfems? They're blaming things on men in the big picture, and transwomen are just (to them) more men. And these figures were (still are, for that matter, even the dead ones) probably more influential than the TERFs whose blogs you're reading.

[Southern Arkansas]

No idea what is going on above me.

I tend to side with the local Republicans on many issues but usually they bring some things to the table I don't really like. Makes it hard to be vocally supportive when the goofy stuff comes forward.

[Novus America]

I can relate to this. I support LGBT rights, but some of these "Gay Pride Groups" can definitely be embarrassing allies that hurt rather than help the cause of LGBT rights.

Y'know, at one point I actually agreed with you, as a gay person coming to terms with their identity. I wasn't entirely comfortable with the very public way such parades demonstrated sexuality, and was concerned about how it would turn away potential allies due to the in-your-face nature of the marches.

Then I started reading about cases where LGTB people were hurt, publicly, and sometimes even killed for having the temerity to do things like hold hands with their significant others or wear makeup. They weren't doing anything to attract attention to themselves, and certainly weren't provoking people into attacking them, and yet they were still attacked. All this shit about being nice, quiet, inoffensive LGTB people got them nothing.

I came to the conclusion that people that get offended or stick their noses up at pride parades or a little skin aren't worth having as allies anyway. Pride parades are by LGTB people and for LGTB people first and foremost, and are a celebration of everything we've had to go through as a movement, and if that offends a few prudes and homophobes along the way, well, that's just fine by me.

It seems like we are at an impasse here as we have fundamental differences in what we believe to be the most effective way to move forward.

Note the parades do not offend me personally. My issue is if you want to win at the ballot box, you need the support of the majority, and most Americans are Christians with somewhat conservative values. If you cannot work with them you cannot win legislative victories.

Well it seems that this is always the way with embarrassing allies. When two groups have the same end goal but very different methods it can cause a major gulf between the two. It is common to have a divide between the protestors and the pragmatists.

This was a big issue during the civil rights movements, the militant black power groups and the moderate civil rights supporters had disagreements too. This type of thing seems to happen in every movement, causing pretty much everything on this thread. This type of dispute is very common. Generally as a movement evolves it becomes more pragmatic over time though.

[Meryuma]

As a bit of an environmentalist who tends to lean right on other domestic issues, I find myself having to choose between degenerate hippies and reckless conservatives far too often.

Degenerate hippies, obviously. Best choice in most circumstancese tbh.

[Zeinbrad]

Imprisoned? Nope, just put in mental clinics.

Religion is a mental illness afterall /s

I don't remember you being an atheist.

......

Huh?

Also as a note. I am a largely atheist person from a very Christian family.

But of god just appeared in front of me and said "What's up G?" I would convert.

After taking a million selfies and gaining vengeance on my enemies. Gods good at that.

[Laerod]

Why should we respect someone that can't come up with a way to discipline their child that doesn't involve violence?

Maybe you should respect the fact that other people don't have your sensibilities. You display the same thinking as the types that I pointed out, no understanding of degrees of application of force, you might as well be arguing that a shove is equal to a punch in the face with brass knuckles, after all, in your overly simplistic view violence is violence.

As far as a kid is concerned that's an utterly valid position to hold. Further more violence is violence. The lesson a kid learns is that if you're mad, it's ok to hit someone, that might makes right, and that violence is an acceptable means to resolve a dispute. Better to err on the side of not doing it at all.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Donald Trump is a putz. I understand the concern about bringing people into the US when they are infected with Ebola, but the way he talked about it was just very disrespectful and made it sound like they had done something wrong by trying to help.

Frankly I feel you are insulting the putz's of the world with the trump comparison. But when he and I are on the same side, I cringe.

I don't know why anyone still takes him seriously.

[Nazi Flower Power]

This is the problem with society at the moment. When feminism gets painted with a broad-ass brush that makes people, men and women (et al) want to distance themselves when they're actually after a common goal (through different means of course, which is presumably where differences arise).

Well, firstly, I feel like I can't or shouldn't be a "feminist" because, hell, I'm a white, middle-class, cisgendered male. How could I when I'm, like, the source of the problem?

Secondly, I fear that mainline feminism is getting much too radical, what with this talk about "the oppressor" and all.

White middle class cis men can be feminists.

I understand about the 2nd point, though. I don't like all of the "oppression" and "patriarchy" rhetoric either. Sometimes people just overuse it and it makes them sound unhinged.