"Get Off Of My Side!": Embarrassing Allies

[Vecherd]

The Ludvig Von Mises institute and their socially conservative writers, Ayn Rand that probably hated voluntaryism more than a SocDem and how she is viewed as a libertarian either through confusion or for political gain. Stefan fucking Molyneux and MRAs.

But in general not something I care about. It's more important to try to have broad coalitions on issues that you agree with. And another persons view doesn't matter for my views. Shouldn't for other people either.

[Laerod]

Didn't you get the memo, a hypothetical situation that's highly unlikely to ever occur is directly comparable to a situation that really exists.

Oh, my comment was about Hetrio's tendency to dismiss cisgendered men out of hand and how that argument serves as the excuse. Me finding that kind of behavior wrong isn't a statement on how much of a genuine threat it might, relative to other things or on its own.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Oh, my comment was about Hetrio's tendency to dismiss cisgendered men out of hand

Do you see me speaking as a protagonist on race issues? Hell, most of what I can't draw a comparison with to the reality of my native culture?

[Tahar Joblis]

Hatred of any group is dangerous.

And it has effects.

Note that? That's someone in a position of power, who could cause significant harm to male students at Vassar.

Guess what?

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2014/07/13369/
http://watchdogwire.com/pennsylvania/20 ... r-college/

Not a harmless position for her to take. There are lots of people in positions of power who either hate men or hold a view that is constructed from an ideological foundation built by people who hate men.

People hating men is one of the reasons why we have dysfunctional rape-related policies on college campuses. It's one of the reasons why research on women victimizing men has been obstructed, marginalized, and its impact on policy minimized. It's one of the reasons why we don't have domestic violence shelters helping men. It's one of the reasons why we have sexist policies and practice, in general. It is not harmless to hate men.

Disgusting.

I am really historically skeptical about attitudes that direct asking about issues in feminism when it comes to dealing with the oppressor/privileged group (or people who supposedly belong there, in contrast to their own opinion) in a relatively objectionable way to a blanket "what about the menz?" meme and "I'm offended by your implying that we're not ultimate authority and priority" attitude that seems to associate the barest skepticism to any feminism of any line ever to a misogynistic silencing of all their activism and thus perpetuation of oppression.

Can't say I didn't expect it. The blatant lies of the sex work abolitionist movement also don't help it.

Still, if that's the worst, they're not more messed up than TERFs and much of the MRA movement, for which I'm glad, and also still not more dangerous.

There is a lot of overlap between TERFs and misandrism. To a large degree, the latter creates the former. The identity of transwomen as women, the role of transwomen in the feminist movement, and the sense that transwomen are in some fashion "infiltrating" the female gender role from the outside is not a problem unless you are already sexist to the degree that you believe that male perspectives should be devalued, male voices should be silenced, and men are generically predators of women.

If you are an egalitarian who thinks that transwomen aren't real women, you don't really have much to get excited about or angry about. If you're treating men and women as fully equal beings with the same rights and privileges, then treating a woman like a man or vice versa is little imposition to you in most cases.

And I don't think dyadic cis hetero men are the most able to deal with this problem of toxic activism, either, even when they're tolerant liberals. As I said previously, "nobody" will really listen. Hell, I was misgendered by intersecs far more than once. Liberal and liberal-intersectional feminist groups that embrace males or affirmatively embrace male allies and can advance men's issues are the ones I could think would be the best to signal boost these problems. Men's liberation movements often are small or even unheard of, and without significant power.

Any who gain power or prominence and advocate materially for actual significant changes on men's issues risk exile from the feminist identity ala Warren Farrell.

The way you stay a "men's liberation" group within the context of a maintaining a feminist-affiliated identity is by avoiding doing anything substantive.

[Anglo-California]

Didn't you get the memo, a hypothetical situation that's highly unlikely to ever occur is directly comparable to a situation that really exists.

Oh, my comment was about Hetrio's tendency to dismiss cisgendered men out of hand and how that argument serves as the excuse. Me finding that kind of behavior wrong isn't a statement on how much of a genuine threat it might, relative to other things or on its own.

Hetrio has tendency to center everything around or make a comparison to Brazil.

But I guess we all do that with our home country.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

There is a lot of overlap between TERFs and misandrism. To a large degree, the latter creates the former. The identity of transwomen as women, the role of transwomen in the feminist movement, and the sense that transwomen are in some fashion "infiltrating" the female gender role from the outside is not a problem unless you are already sexist to the degree that you believe that male perspectives should be devalued, male voices should be silenced, and men are generically predators of women.

Weirdly enough, I've seen radfems friendly to transphobic cis men.

People who are political lesbians while being married to men, and dismissing bi people...

Their movement is really a right-wing void of utter nonsense, so they are concerned with upholding known values and essentialism much more than trying to crush men. 70-80% of the usual TERF blogs in my language, when they name a villain people must fight, talk about trans people rather than [cis] [hetero] men. They don't go on stating much further from common opinion with an added cup of lemon and another of vinegar when they do so, when compared to most of feminism.

This is in line with my experience with TERFs, they will appropriate issues they understand poorly pioneered by other activism to blame trans people somehow: http://intersexroadshow.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/trans-exclusionary-radical-feminists.html

If you are an egalitarian who thinks that transwomen aren't real women, you don't really have much to get excited about or angry about. If you're treating men and women as fully equal beings with the same rights and privileges, then treating a woman like a man or vice versa is little imposition to you in most cases.

That's a lie. I've encountered enormously transphobic and binarist egalitarians out there.

Hell, I know of a cisgender woman who pits trans women, travesti women and third gender travestis against non-binary people with plenty of toxic language because of a few bad grudges (many of them related to our community being white-majority and supposedly disinterested in people who can't access middle class/non-peripheral white spaces, another ones led by her intense derails such as a belief that half of people she knew in the scene swallow pedophile activism).

[Genivaria]

Atheists who think that religious people should be imprisoned.
Way to fit the stereotype there guys.

[Agritum]

Atheists who think that religious people should be imprisoned.
Way to fit the stereotype there guys.

Imprisoned? Nope, just put in mental clinics.

Religion is a mental illness afterall /s

[Galloism]

Atheists who think that religious people should be imprisoned.
Way to fit the stereotype there guys.

Imprisoned? Nope, just put in mental clinics.

Religion is a mental illness afterall /s

If memory serves, we've had a ruling that referring to religious people as mentally ill is something that is not to be named.

Seriously. Why do you have to draw down fire on yourself?

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Atheists who think that religious people should be imprisoned.
Way to fit the stereotype there guys.

Imprisoned? Nope, just put in mental clinics.

Religion is a mental illness afterall /s

I don't remember you being an atheist.

[Anglo-California]

Atheists who think that religious people should be imprisoned.
Way to fit the stereotype there guys.

Imprisoned? Nope, just put in mental clinics.

Religion is a mental illness afterall /s

Mhmm...and people wonder why this atheist hangs out with a Sedevaticanist arch-Catholic.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Mhmm...and people wonder why this atheist hangs out with a Sedevaticanist arch-Catholic.

I really remember Agritum being a strong agnostic but still being in contact with his Catholic roots.

[Olivaero]

Atheists who think that religious people should be imprisoned.
Way to fit the stereotype there guys.

Oh yeah... those people strike me as so childish.

[The Orson Empire]

Imprisoned? Nope, just put in mental clinics.

Religion is a mental illness afterall /s

If memory serves, we've had a ruling that referring to religious people as mentally ill is something that is not to be named.

Seriously. Why do you have to draw down fire on yourself?

I'm pretty sure that post is sarcasm.

[Anglo-California]

Mhmm...and people wonder why this atheist hangs out with a Sedevaticanist arch-Catholic.

I really remember Agritum being a strong agnostic but still being in contact with his Catholic roots.

My ancestors were all Quakers, but I was baptized Catholic. I am really not fond of the Catholic Church and I absolutely hate Liberation Theology. I consider myself culturally Protestant (muh anglo stuff), even though I don't believe in a god and consider a lot of Protestantism to be kinda nutty.

My girlfriend was a Muslim and my good friend opposes Vatican II and views all the popes as illegitimate.

I'm more cosmopolitan than people would believe. That doesn't mean I have to like it though.

[Mesrane]

The subset of redneck that hides behind their swamp fortress and eagerly explains to Nat. Geo film crews how they plan to win a shootout with whatever form of government comes their way.

Ughhhhhh!

[The Orson Empire]

Mhmm...and people wonder why this atheist hangs out with a Sedevaticanist arch-Catholic.

I really remember Agritum being a strong agnostic but still being in contact with his Catholic roots.

Guys, the post is sarcasm! Agritum even put a "/s" after it! How did you miss that?

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

I'm pretty sure that post is sarcasm.

Yeah. Agritum is probably among the people in NSG who regard me an annoying new atheist.

[Anglo-California]

The subset of redneck that hides behind their swamp fortress and eagerly explains to Nat. Geo film crews how they plan to win a shootout with whatever form of government comes their way.

Ughhhhhh!

Same goes for militia members who think the banks put fluoride in our toe nails.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

I really remember Agritum being a strong agnostic but still being in contact with his Catholic roots.

Guys, the post is sarcasm! Agritum even put a "/s" after it! How did you miss that?

What is a "/s"?

[Galloism]

If memory serves, we've had a ruling that referring to religious people as mentally ill is something that is not to be named.

Seriously. Why do you have to draw down fire on yourself?

I'm pretty sure that post is sarcasm.

Oh, well I'm not familiar with him.

... and we have had people say that in seriousness on nationstates before. Poe's law.

Sorry Agritum.

[The Orson Empire]

Guys, the post is sarcasm! Agritum even put a "/s" after it! How did you miss that?

What is a "/s"?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=%2Fs

[Genivaria]

The subset of redneck that hides behind their swamp fortress and eagerly explains to Nat. Geo film crews how they plan to win a shootout with whatever form of government comes their way.

Ughhhhhh!

Same goes for militia members who think the banks put fluoride in our toe nails.

Or that Obama's drones are dropping chem trails in our air.

[Galloism]

What is a "/s"?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=%2Fs

I also don't read urban dictionary.

[Mesrane]

The subset of redneck that hides behind their swamp fortress and eagerly explains to Nat. Geo film crews how they plan to win a shootout with whatever form of government comes their way.

Ughhhhhh!

Same goes for militia members who think the banks put fluoride in our toe nails.

That too.