"Get Off Of My Side!": Embarrassing Allies

[Novia Soviet Socialist Republic]

Nigel Farage and the majority of UKIP. I agree with some of the things they push for but the bigotry really makes me want to just kick all of them in their ear.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Aw, we're gonna be friends.

It gives me a small amount of pride that when you google "Ultimate Hitler Thread" that's the first result.

It was a good thread.

[Harpers Ferry]

Let's not advocate murder.

If you hate them so much, why don't we just wipe them off the face of the planet???

I am not going to dignify that idiocy with a straight answer.

[Zeinbrad]

The far end of the social justice people. All you want is a sane discussion about the problem with society, and then someone writes an article about how men are more likely to be hit by a meteor than falsely accused of rape and it gets liked and reblogged more than 35,000 times on Tumblr.

(No, I'm not kidding, that literally happened. The estimate was obtained by conflating the average number of false rape accusations per sex act with the average number of false accusations per lifetime. It was off by about four orders of magnitude. In a further irony, the writer was later internet-mobbed by social justice people for something completely different.)

Same really.

Mind me seeing this if you have a link?

[Nekronia]

As someone who wants equality for all races and sexes, I ram my head into the nearest object when I see overly PC people harass and dox normal people who had no ill-will or anything. It's why I am very hesitant to admit to being a feminist due to that title being associated with hate instead of, y'know, common moral standards.

I think we all know the kind of people I'm cringing at.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Within the context of NS, I get alternately embarrassed by some of our feminists and most of our MRAs.

I'm giving a nice lecture on equal rights and treating men and women equally, and on the sexism clearly present in society, and then they come in and spout sexist bullshiat while claiming to be for equality.

And it's like: don't help. Before you can help, you need to understand.

I can relate to that. Threads about gender issues tend to be pretty bad with a lot of myopic points of view on both sides. You're one of the best at doing the MRA thing without veering into misogyny.

[TurtleShroom]

Straight couples holding hands in the street? Guys talking about their girlfriends at school? What perverts! No wonder their families would disown them!

Two words. Pride Parade.

When straight couples march near-naked in parades and make out to get attention on tacky floats while waving inflatable phallic imagry and mocking or putting down their primary dissidents, I'll consider taking your ludicrous claim that it's the same seriously.

[TurtleShroom]

Sadly a lot of racist people support Christian fundamentalism and authoritarianism.

It's because they're stupid and probably going to Hell. No one who harbors such hate to their neighbor is a Christian. You don't need to be a racist bigot to supprot Christian fundamentalism. In fact, THAT'S LITERALLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS ABOUT, AND THUS HAS NO PLACE IN ITS FUNDIES. I've gotten into some arguments before with people who claim to be Christian then hate on someone for the color of their skin or nation of origin. What part of "God loves everyone but hates their sin" do these idiots not understand?

[Galloism]

Within the context of NS, I get alternately embarrassed by some of our feminists and most of our MRAs.

I'm giving a nice lecture on equal rights and treating men and women equally, and on the sexism clearly present in society, and then they come in and spout sexist bullshiat while claiming to be for equality.

And it's like: don't help. Before you can help, you need to understand.

I can relate to that. Threads about gender issues tend to be pretty bad with a lot of myopic points of view on both sides. You're one of the best at doing the MRA thing without veering into misogyny.

It's not really me doing the "MRA thing". It's that I want equal rights for all, regardless of gender.

Now, sometimes desiring equal rights gets people accusing you of misogyny, but in that particular case, they're just showcasing their own sexism.

[Shaggai]

The far end of the social justice people. All you want is a sane discussion about the problem with society, and then someone writes an article about how men are more likely to be hit by a meteor than falsely accused of rape and it gets liked and reblogged more than 35,000 times on Tumblr.

(No, I'm not kidding, that literally happened. The estimate was obtained by conflating the average number of false rape accusations per sex act with the average number of false accusations per lifetime. It was off by about four orders of magnitude. In a further irony, the writer was later internet-mobbed by social justice people for something completely different.)

Same really.

Mind me seeing this if you have a link?

The article

38,000 times

An analysis of why the article was completely off, by about four orders of magnitude

A description of the Internet mobbing

[Zeinbrad]

Same really.

Mind me seeing this if you have a link?

The article

38,000 times

An analysis of why the article was completely off, by about four orders of magnitude

A description of the Internet mobbing

I have a story about racism.

You all know the EDL?

You know that it's leader resigned?

Well some news network was giving what it was like for him in his hometown. At first people were saying he did the right thing. Then the people (Who happened to be mostly Muslims or of Arabic descent) began to mob him, threaten him and I think give him a broken nose to the point were he called the police and left the scene as he thought he was in serious danger.

So basically these people, on camera, probably 'proved' the EDL's point or made people sympathize with them more by being idiots.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

I have a story about racism.

You all know the EDL?

You know that it's leader resigned?

Well some news network was giving what it was like for him in his hometown. At first people were saying he did the right thing. Then the people (Who happened to be mostly Muslims or of Arabic descent) began to mob him, threaten him and I think give him a broken nose to the point were he called the police and left the scene as he thought he was in serious danger.

So basically these people, on camera, probably 'proved' the EDL's point or made people sympathize with them more by being idiots.

It's dumb to not place at least 95% of the blame on the oppressors when it follows a social hierarchy narrative, so I'm not so sure if the Muslims were the ones in the wrong the most.

Not that I'm for bias, hate, violence or anything, but I can't really say I'd find it okay to antagonize them because of that attitude.

[Zeinbrad]

I have a story about racism.

You all know the EDL?

You know that it's leader resigned?

Well some news network was giving what it was like for him in his hometown. At first people were saying he did the right thing. Then the people (Who happened to be mostly Muslims or of Arabic descent) began to mob him, threaten him and I think give him a broken nose to the point were he called the police and left the scene as he thought he was in serious danger.

So basically these people, on camera, probably 'proved' the EDL's point or made people sympathize with them more by being idiots.

It's dumb to not place at least 95% of the blame on the oppressors when it follows a social hierarchy narrative, so I'm not so sure if the Muslims were the ones in the wrong the most.

Not that I'm for bias, hate, violence or anything, but I can't really say I'd find it okay to antagonize them because of that attitude.

Oh god, I should of made it clearer.

I'm against the EDL and I believe Muslims have a right to live in England.

I'm not an EDL sympathizer.

[Genivaria]

As a leftist who loves science I can't stand the "don't mess with mother nature" crap.
As well as the cowards who think that we don't have the right to prevent a genocide in another country.

I'm anti-imperialism, but pro-interventionist. I'm against the US moving back into further consolidate its position in the Middle East and compound the existing nightmare, but I support the thousands of volunteers joining and providing aid towards progressive Kurdish and minority organisations. Most radical leftists think this way.

Oh I have nothing but respect for people who participate in humanitarian aid.
But those people need protection to do their work properly.

That's where a democratic, multi-polar organization provides aid.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Oh god, I should of made it clearer.

I'm against the EDL and I believe Muslims have a right to live in England.

I'm not an EDL sympathizer.

What I'm saying is that people have a right to be tired of their oppression and to want justice in that very moment, to not be in their good animus enough for a proud-spirited, pedagogical attitude when it comes to dealing with their obvious enemies who should feel bad for their very actions, it's a bad ally attitude to be judgmental about their reaction against obvious -ists.

People who are tired and frustrated should not be judged for "being on the same page" as if both carried the same moral weight, true aggression comes from those who have the power to oppress through a socially accepted form of prejudice, while many Muslims might be bigoted, they are just a minority without the capacity to overpower institutions meant to represent the safety and well-being of members of the native culture.

[Greater-London]

People who are tired and frustrated should not be judged for "being on the same page" as if both carried the same moral weight, true aggression comes from those who have the power to oppress through a socially accepted form of prejudice, while many Muslims might be bigoted, they are just a minority without the capacity to overpower institutions meant to represent the safety and well-being of members of the native culture.

The problem with this paragraph is that is suggests a number of things. First of all it suggests that groups like the EDL are able to oppress people Asians or Muslims (which is wrong) and that this prejudice is somehow socially acceptable (it isn't). Nor are members of such groups able to overpower or influence their representatives - it is the fact that they have been ignored and forgotten that they turn to racism. The system clearly doesn't work in favor of the sort of people who join the EDL otherwise they wouldn't be so angry.

[Greater-London]

Embarrassing allies of mine are sanctimonious social liberals and moral crusaders. There motives are pure (I often agree with them) but they so quickly delve into authoritarianism and are uninterested in debate or reasoning with opponents.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

The problem with this paragraph is that is suggests a number of things. First of all it suggests that groups like the EDL are able to oppress people Asians or Muslims (which is wrong) and that this prejudice is somehow socially acceptable (it isn't). Nor are members of such groups able to overpower or influence their representatives - it is the fact that they have been ignored and forgotten that they turn to racism. The system clearly doesn't work in favor of the sort of people who join the EDL otherwise they wouldn't be so angry.

What I actually meant:

1. there is a snowball chance in hell of Muslim fundies taking power over historically Christian European countries.
2. racism and xenophobia actually already happen as oppression against people like these descendants of immigrants, even if not in the level the EDL would advocate for
3. EDL wants to further something bad and hurtful that already takes place because they're bothered by the mere existence of the individuals who embody their Other
4. most Muslims are chill

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Embarrassing allies of mine are sanctimonious social liberals and moral crusaders. There motives are pure (I often agree with them) but they so quickly delve into authoritarianism and are uninterested in debate or reasoning with opponents.

I think people should do what is within their limits :/

Empathy, decent attitudes toward your fellow human beings and informed opinions are always something we should expect, specially so when people speak on issues that more directly affects us rather than them.

[Greater-London]

What I actually meant:

1. there is a snowball chance in hell of Muslim fundies taking power over historically Christian European countries.
2. racism and xenophobia actually already happen as oppression against people like these descendants of immigrants, even if not in the level the EDL would advocate for
3. EDL wants to further something bad and hurtful that already takes place because they're bothered by the mere existence of the individuals who embody their Other
4. most Muslims are chill

Sorry, feeling a bit under the weather and Its making my brain slow

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Sorry, feeling a bit under the weather and Its making my brain slow

No problem, often I am unnecessarily verbose and convoluted in my wording.

[Archeuland and Baughistan]

The right wing remains united...

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

The right wing remains united...

It's really easy to endorse a flawed status quo. Indicating how to properly rewrite it from the base is work.

[Greater-London]

The right wing remains united...

I think this is a joke. If not, then nah the political right is INCREDIBLY divided unless of course you compare it to the far left.

[Quintium]

Wait, you changed your views because people on your side behaved badly?

No. They just gave me an incentive to get rid of the piles of dogma that had stacked up in my mind because I went to an altruistic all-white primary school and an altruistic almost all-white secondary school far away from reality. I don't think I'm driven by hatred now, but I was driven by hatred then - an irrational hatred of the far right that almost made me unable to see people who were far-right as people. Then, in my last year of secondary school, I went to the eastern part of Germany. In one university town, all walls and lamp posts had been stickered by the 'anti-fascists'. It was a slightly unsettling reminder that the people in the camp I had been taught for all my life to support weren't interested in debating, only in telling people what to think. We used to view people who did not agree with typical left-wing dogma not as political opponents, but as objective barriers to progress that had to be removed for there to be progress. That thought suddenly frightened me, seeing visual intimidation by people who didn't care one bit about freedom but were supposedly on my side.

Later, I was a guest at a house belonging to my mother's cousin, who owned quite a bit of real estate in the area. He was in his early 60s, I think, but he had end-stage cancer and he was living out his final days there with his wife and two children. He showed us how he had been personally renovating a house, and how he kept pigeons and had an arrangement with a local farmer where he let the farmer use his land for cattle and the farmer would give him a big pile of meat every year. He talked a bit about his ancestry, and why he was trying to lay claim to a dukedom, and about the slope of his garden and a business his wife was trying to set up. Eventually, as it always does with Dutch people, the conversation turned to politics. Suddenly, this eccentric old man - who was an early supporter of Wilders - started saying things that I really had no answer to. He explained that he would be dead within a few years, but that he feared for the future of his two children. They'd be growing up in a Europe that would no longer be theirs, a Europe of violence and poverty, a Europe governed by naive idealists for the benefit of everyone except the Europeans until the system itself would collapse. Well, I tried to argue against him using most of the arguments that people here use against me on a daily basis, but he was a genius so he caught me off guard. This was a man who knew his facts and figures and was relentless in his use of logic and rhetoric. Eventually, I gave up, but that started a process of critical thinking in my mind that, over the years that followed, turned me even more far-right than he was. If he hadn't died shortly after that, I would have thanked him for broadening my mind after a childhood full of indoctrination.