Muslims discovered America before Columbus, says Erdogan

[Ifreann]

As to secrecy of ship charts and logs during that period, that is something I accept as fact. Whether it was possible to the extent claimed, I dunno, but everything I have read about the period says those documents wer treated as state secrets.

It's not just a matter of shipping charts, though...

You can keep the actual charts secret, certainly; but over several centuries not one Basque sailor got drunk and mentioned something along the lines of "and we sail for several days northwest, and you wouldn't believe the the cod banks we find off some land there"?

But the really serious problem is processing and preservation. You can't just ship dead fish across the Atlantic; you have to dry, smoke, or salt it first - otherwise you'll have a hold full of putrefied inedible fish.

So seasonal fishing activity that far away from a home port requires the processing and preservation of the entire catch prior to transportation back to the home port.

We know what this type of seasonal occupation looks like in the early period of exploration/settlement of Newfoundland because a fair number of 16th-century sites have been identified, excavated and studied.

So given the readily identifiable archaeological signature that this type of processing activity would leave behind, where are the pre-Cabotian/pre-Columbian fish processing sites?

That they haven't been found doesn't necessarily mean that they don't exist, of course; but that the 16th-century sites have been so readily identifiable and no earlier sites have ever been found - even though you would expect at least some re-use of the best ports if the Basques had been visiting for decades/centuries - should at least give us pause for thought.

For reference, a good professional friend of mine studies Iberian pottery from early Newfoundland sites, which is why I know something about the topic. Which I appreciate is an appeal to uncitable and unverifiable authority in NSG terms, but I hope I have enough of a reputation here by now that people would know I wouldn't just make this all up.

Arch confirmed 4 Illuminatus. #wakeupsheeple

[Ethel mermania]

As to secrecy of ship charts and logs during that period, that is something I accept as fact. Whether it was possible to the extent claimed, I dunno, but everything I have read about the period says those documents wer treated as state secrets.

It's not just a matter of shipping charts, though...

You can keep the actual charts secret, certainly; but over several centuries not one Basque sailor got drunk and mentioned something along the lines of "and we sail for several days northwest, and you wouldn't believe the the cod banks we find off some land there"?

But the really serious problem is processing and preservation. You can't just ship dead fish across the Atlantic; you have to dry, smoke, or salt it first - otherwise you'll have a hold full of putrefied inedible fish.

So seasonal fishing activity that far away from a home port requires the processing and preservation of the entire catch prior to transportation back to the home port.

We know what this type of seasonal occupation looks like in the early period of exploration/settlement of Newfoundland because a fair number of 16th-century sites have been identified, excavated and studied.

So given the readily identifiable archaeological signature that this type of processing activity would leave behind, where are the pre-Cabotian/pre-Columbian fish processing sites?

That they haven't been found doesn't necessarily mean that they don't exist, of course; but that the 16th-century sites have been so readily identifiable and no earlier sites have ever been found - even though you would expect at least some re-use of the best ports if the Basques had been visiting for decades/centuries - should at least give us pause for thought.

For reference, a good professional friend of mine studies Iberian pottery from early Newfoundland sites, which is why I know something about the topic. Which I appreciate is an appeal to uncitable and unverifiable authority in NSG terms, but I hope I have enough of a reputation here by now that people would know I wouldn't just make this all up.

Well we would trust you, if it weren't for putting that poor king into a parking lot. I would believe it was an accident, if not for the "r" stamped over the gravesite.

I do appreciate the explanation, thanx.

[Chaunceys]

I don't see why it matters who discovered America, do they think just because they say their people discovered America before Columbus suddenly means they own America or am I missing something here.

[Ethel mermania]

It's not just a matter of shipping charts, though...

You can keep the actual charts secret, certainly; but over several centuries not one Basque sailor got drunk and mentioned something along the lines of "and we sail for several days northwest, and you wouldn't believe the the cod banks we find off some land there"

But the really serious problem is processing and preservation. You can't just ship dead fish across the Atlantic; you have to dry, smoke, or salt it first - otherwise you'll have a hold full of putrefied inedible fish.

So seasonal fishing activity that far away from a home port requires the processing and preservation of the entire catch prior to transportation back to the home port.

We know what this type of seasonal occupation looks like in the early period of exploration/settlement of Newfoundland because a fair number of 16th-century sites have been identified, excavated and studied.

So given the readily identifiable archaeological signature that this type of processing activity would leave behind, where are the pre-Cabotian/pre-Columbian fish processing sites?

That they haven't been found doesn't necessarily mean that they don't exist, of course; but that the 16th-century sites have been so readily identifiable and no earlier sites have ever been found - even though you would expect at least some re-use of the best ports if the Basques had been visiting for decades/centuries - should at least give us pause for thought.

For reference, a good professional friend of mine studies Iberian pottery from early Newfoundland sites, which is why I know something about the topic. Which I appreciate is an appeal to uncitable and unverifiable authority in NSG terms, but I hope I have enough of a reputation here by now that people would know I wouldn't just make this all up.

Arch confirmed 4 Illuminatus. #wakeupsheeple

Trying to learn something doesn't make someone "sheeple"
Besides Blatt is not here.

[Ethel mermania]

I don't see why it matters who discovered America, do they think just because they say their people discovered America before Columbus suddenly means they own America or am I missing something here.

Your missing something, currently as shown by most ofthe comments in this thread, folks think the Turks and Muslims are backwater hicks. His point is "oh really? We were there before you Christians ".

[Papait]

To be honest, there may be a chance that Muslims have been there before Columbus, but they wouldn't have built a mosque. There are tales about muslim sailors getting lost and reaching land, which they assume is spain or a part of africa,but they never settled there.

Polynesians have been to south america too, but never settled, all they did was take potatoes and go back home

[The Archregimancy]

Polynesians have been to south america too, but never settled, all they did was take potatoes and go back home

They also left some chickens and took some women/men back to Easter Island - see the more detailed post on the previous page.

And, technically, sweet potatoes, not potatoes proper.

[Sun Wukong]

Polynesians have been to south america too, but never settled, all they did was take potatoes and go back home

They also left some chickens and took some women/men back to Easter Island - see the more detailed post on the previous page.

And, technically, sweet potatoes, not potatoes proper.

Although I've heard the DNA evidence with the chickens has recently been challenged. Not that I'm an expert in genetics, so I couldn't tell you if there is any merit to it.

[Kravanica]

Why does Erdogan have an incessant need to say stupid shit?

[Sun Wukong]

Why does Erdogan have an incessant need to say stupid shit?

...too easy.

[Laerod]

Why does Erdogan have an incessant need to say stupid shit?

Lack of negative reenforcement.

[Livian Nations]

Bullshit.

[Jonkurlandia]

eddy murphy did
fucking liar

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

That's not actually a question relating to the quoted post, but I'll assume you were struggling with your mobile phone and really addressing earlier posts and not the quoted one.

I don't know why Smithsonian is offering an unproblematised statement of fact there. The extent to which our Euskaldunak cousins reached the North America cod banks earlier than anyone else is disputed; claims that there was extended secret Basque fishing activity off Newfoundland (and what a secret it was - we're expected to believe that no one else noticed where Basque ships sailing from the Bay of Biscay were going over a period of up to 500 years; that's a fairly amazingly effective conspiracy of silence for the later medieval period) are considered at best dubious. It's significant that no one bothered to make the claim until a full century after John Cabot's (re)discovery of Newfoundland.

The earliest verifiable Basque contacts with Newfoundland fishing banks are post-Cabot. And while there's an awful lot of relevant Canadian (and American) coast to survey, a lot of work has been done here; enough to let us know what the archaeological signatures of seasonal Basque whaling/fishing camps and Basque fishing vessels look like:

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/e ... ical-site/
http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/lhn-nhs/nl/redb ... asque.aspx

Red Bay is not unique; the modern Newfoundland town of Placentia also started as a seasonal Spanish and Basque fishing centre.

http://www.tcr.gov.nl.ca/tcr/pao/arch_i ... entia.html

However, none of the relevant sites pre-date the 16th century. Note also that seasonal Basque exploitation of Placentia - one of the best fishing harbours off the North Atlantic cod fishery - post-dates early Portuguese and Spanish exploration activity in the area. This tends to further suggest claims of pre-Cabotian seasonal secret Basque exploitation of what was once the North Atlantic's greatest fishing ground are problematic.

Again, future research may change our perspective here (and Newfoundland's Memorial University has an excellent archaeology department that carries out world-class research on early colonial activity in the province), but at present the claims are problematic.


As to why Newfoundland and not South America for Basques... this is purely a hypothetical given the existing problematic nature of the claims, but presumably:

1) Latitude.
2) The species being fished are all from the North Atlantic, so you wouldn't sail south to exploit them.
3) Presumed ability to sail close to land using known Norse sailing routes via Iceland and Greenland if activity begins as early as some claim; though we're apparently also asked to believe that the Norse settlers of Iceland, Greenland, and Vinland didn't notice the Basques either.

I was trying to catch your attention to kurlinsky's theory. Which was what Smithsonian was reviewing. His book on cod fishing is my source for this conversation.

Thank you for your discussion it was interesting. As an aside, when we the public, read these books they all come footnoted, with, to a layman, looks legitimate. We do assume these folks do their research and it's somewhat vetted by the review process.

As to secrecy of ship charts and logs during that period, that is something I accept as fact. Whether it was possible to the extent claimed, I dunno, but everything I have read about the period says those documents wer treated as state secrets.

I will be looking at the sources when i can get to a puter. (thanks nana for your adds as well)..

Just a reminder that my sources deal with a lot of speculation. But you're welcome.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

To be honest, there may be a chance that Muslims have been there before Columbus, but they wouldn't have built a mosque. There are tales about muslim sailors getting lost and reaching land, which they assume is spain or a part of africa,but they never settled there.

Polynesians have been to south america too, but never settled, all they did was take potatoes and go back home

I don't know. I just saw a suggestion that they (Muslims) may have arrived in America 500 years prior to Columbus but let us remember that all this is speculation. One such speculation is from the mid-Xth century during the rule of the Umayed Caliph Abdul-Rahman III (929-961). But again, I think Dr. Youssef Mroueh is coloring a bit too much outside the lines. I'm not going to say he's wrong but so far, there hasn't been any concrete evidence to suggest that indeed, there were Muslim sailors arriving in America pre-Columbine times.

[Anollasia]

Erdogan should be a comedian. First he builds the presidential palace not even the sultans he admires would build, next he builds a completely uneccessary and ugly giant mosque on Çamlıca Hill in Istanbul, now he wants to build a mosque in Cuba. What next? Mosques on the Moon?

[Rio Cana]

Did the Turkish President work has a "barker" in a Carny before getting into politics.

For those that have no idea, the guy with the microphone in the following video is a Carny "barker".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYPSb7tQWOU

[Olerand]

Of course they did. To Erdogan, Muslims walked on the Moon, Mars, and the Sun already anyway.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Erdogan should be a comedian. First he builds the presidential palace not even the sultans he admires would build, next he builds a completely uneccessary and ugly giant mosque on Çamlıca Hill in Istanbul, now he wants to build a mosque in Cuba. What next? Mosques on the Moon?

He's funny. Nutty, but funny.

[Herskerstad]

Erdogan should be a comedian. First he builds the presidential palace not even the sultans he admires would build, next he builds a completely uneccessary and ugly giant mosque on Çamlıca Hill in Istanbul, now he wants to build a mosque in Cuba. What next? Mosques on the Moon?

He's funny. Nutty, but funny.

I just find it beyond incredible that he has half a nation voting for him.

[Anollasia]

He's funny. Nutty, but funny.

I just find it beyond incredible that he has half a nation voting for him.

It's the villagers. Not to generalize anyone but, general consensus is people who were born in a village tend to not be as educated and so they get fooled.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

He's funny. Nutty, but funny.

I just find it beyond incredible that he has half a nation voting for him.

I don't rightly know, either.

[United States Kingdom]

Who cares? It doesn't matter. They should focus on the matters at hand, and not something that happened centuries ago.

[Herskerstad]

I just find it beyond incredible that he has half a nation voting for him.

It's the villagers. Not to generalize anyone but, general consensus is people who were born in a village tend to not be as educated and so they get fooled.

I'd love to think that, but Erdogan won several of the major cities too, including Istanbul.

The opposition is split with the second closest having more than a 10 Percentage gap.

[The Two Jerseys]

Let me guess, they flew to America on their "as seen on MythBusters" rocket, right?