Muslims discovered America before Columbus, says Erdogan

[The Fascist American Empire]

It wasn't Muslims, otherwise all the Natives would have been beheaded long before the Conquistadors came along to destroy their civilizations ironically breaking G-d's law to spread G-d's law, nor was it even the Vikings, sorry Olaf. America was discovered by the Siberian nomads chasing mammoths who eventually became the Native Americans.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

It wasn't Muslims, otherwise all the Natives would have been beheaded long before the Conquistadors came along to destroy their civilizations ironically breaking G-d's law to spread G-d's law, nor was it even the Vikings, sorry Olaf. America was discovered by the Siberian nomads chasing mammoths who eventually became the Native Americans.

Not only that, there were three different waves of migration from Siberia.

Amerindian, Na-Déne and Inuit.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Well it was whichever came first. I'm guessing not Inuit, otherwise they'd be in Peru not Alaska. Right?

My point is all these migrations gave origin to the ancestors of American nations.

And wherever you find Indigenous Americans with blood types other than O, it means Na-Déne and/or Inuit were around. This is the case of about all of the United States and Canada. These are also more likely to have hair and eyes of colors other than black and very, very dark.

But yeah, only the descendants of the earliest migration entered what is now Latin America, the Caribbean and Florida.

[Stormaen]

The sign of eccentric populist blooming into full scale tyrant is historical revisionism.

Because building a palace and suppressing the media wasn't enough of a sign?

Hmm, more corruption than dictatorship. But he's definitely on his way to Gaddafi like dictatorship.

[Bandwagon]

The red hair did not come from those Vikings or Turks.
It came from we Paddies.

[Closeted Cases]

Erdo^gan is miles over the horizon of sanity - and accellerating.

[Empire of Vlissingen]

How crazy is this guy?
He acts more like KIm Jong UN every day.

What has happened to Turkey?
It used to be a modern nation.

[The Fascist American Empire]

How crazy is this guy?
He acts more like KIm Jong UN every day.

What has happened to Turkey?
It used to be a modern nation.

Yeah, it actually was a semi-decent country, but at the end of the day, it's just like every Middle East country filled with fundamentalist whack-jobs.

[Lydenburg]

Woah, I didn't know about that.

Medieval Norman colonies in sub-Saharan Africa?

Can we have a source, please?

I have heard of them having a go at North Africa, never heard of them going further South though.

Yeah, the Romans, Vikings and Normans all visited the Canaries.

But sub-Saharan is new to me.

None of them survived for a considerable period, or expanded very much territorial-wise. But yes, they did exist...in Senegal and Ghana specifically. @Arch there's been some archaeological work done near Elmina to recover Norman artifacts, starting with a dig by David Calvocoressi in 1977. At the time Calvocoressi mentioned that local tradition still recalled a French presence there which predated the Germans and the Dutch, who arrived later and apparently built new forts over the site.

Colonial France as we remember it did not arrive in this region until the 1600s.

I had no idea either until I read a report on this phenomenon by the Grolier Society a few years ago.

This source claims that Norman interest in the area was shut down due to the Hundred Years' War. This one puts the date of the Norman arrival on the Senegal River at 1364. You can read part of a 1650 manuscript referencing the incident here which states that the Norman settlers departed due to quarrelling amongst themselves.

Multiple studies (in print) have been published on the subject by the West African Archaeological Newsletter.

[The Lazar]

Bah, everyone knows it was Fishpeople from the R'lyehian enclave who first found America.

[Ayreonia]

It wasn't Muslims, otherwise all the Natives would have been beheaded long before the Conquistadors came along to destroy their civilizations ironically breaking G-d's law to spread G-d's law, nor was it even the Vikings, sorry Olaf. America was discovered by the Siberian nomads chasing mammoths who eventually became the Native Americans.

"Discovered."

Did they realize they're on a whole new continent?

[Nazi Flower Power]

Obviously Nazis were the first people to discover America. That is why there are Native American cultures that use swastikas.

Erdogan should stop trying to steal the credit for our history!

[L Ron Cupboard]

Nationalism often strays into, or relies on, fantasy.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Muslims had to sail across the Mediterranean and then the Atlantic, when Leif Erikson actually discovered America.

Muslims did not have large ships that could've stored enough food to sail the Mediterranean and then the Atlantic, making this theory very unlikely. They also would've likely sailed near the equator, which would've made it harder. Theories of Zheng He finding America is far more likely (although it is far more likely for Columbus and Erikson to find America), as he actually had ships that had the power to sail the Pacific and enough resources to not die in the middle of the sea.

Overall, this is a very outrageous claim that is very unlikely to be true.

[The Archregimancy]

Medieval Norman colonies in sub-Saharan Africa?

Can we have a source, please?

Yeah, the Romans, Vikings and Normans all visited the Canaries.

But sub-Saharan is new to me.

None of them survived for a considerable period, or expanded very much territorial-wise. But yes, they did exist...in Senegal and Ghana specifically. @Arch there's been some archaeological work done near Elmina to recover Norman artifacts, starting with a dig by David Calvocoressi in 1977. At the time Calvocoressi mentioned that local tradition still recalled a French presence there which predated the Germans and the Dutch, who arrived later and apparently built new forts over the site.

Colonial France as we remember it did not arrive in this region until the 1600s.

I had no idea either until I read a report on this phenomenon by the Grolier Society a few years ago.

This source claims that Norman interest in the area was shut down due to the Hundred Years' War. This one puts the date of the Norman arrival on the Senegal River at 1364. You can read part of a 1650 manuscript referencing the incident here which states that the Norman settlers departed due to quarrelling amongst themselves.

Multiple studies (in print) have been published on the subject by the West African Archaeological Newsletter.

I think you're just possibly putting two and two together and coming up with six, though I'm willing to reserve judgement until I talk to Chris De Corse.

1) We know Europeans were looking for the mouth of the Senegal river as early as the late 13th century. This is not news. Exploration is, however, categorically not the same as colonisation. I am unconvinced, moreover, by the uncited '1364' date listed on the Blackpast.org website. I would prefer something with a specific citation, please.

2) The reference in Prince Henry the Navigator's life to Normans 'in the area' specifically and explicitly refers to trade at Cape Bojador (you have to go back one page from the link you provided to page 34), specifically at "a very hot place, which is called now-a-days Cape Bugiador, which belongs to the kingdom of Guinea". Cape Bojador is not, by any measure, either Sub-Saharan Africa or even the Senegal River. This is not a particularly remarkable observation by Prince Henry.

3) As to Calvocoressi's work, you'll note that your own book citation specifically says (emphasis added) "supposed early Norman trading site". Given that Elmina is in Ghana - nowhere near Cape Bojador or the Senegal River, this would indeed be news, even if set aside the observation there's a significant difference between 'colony' and 'trading site'.

But this is hardly a definitive citation; certainly it's not proof of medieval Norman colonies in Ghana. Even leaving aside the "supposed", there is no additional date or context in that sentence that might allow me to unpick what's meant by "Norman" in that sentence; whether it refers to medieval Normans, or later individuals from the region of Normandy.

As it happens the colleague in charge of the ongoing archaeological fieldwork at Elmina - the leading current authority on the subject, and indeed the individual who's both the editor of the volume you're citing here and the author of the cited introduction - is someone I know personally, and with whom I'm connected on LinkedIn; so I'll ask him. I'm having some trouble tracking down back issues of the West African Journal of Archaeology so I can check what's being claimed here, even via my academic library access. So best if I just ask the relevant individual directly in order to cut out the misunderstandings that might result from second hand information so I can sort out precisely what is being claimed here.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Looks like someone is putting too much stock in the Age of Empires III campaign's historical accuracy.

That was the first thing that came to my mind

[Papait]

...Australia?

Well sometimes New Zealand get's thrown in there too.

Zealandia!

That's like completely wrong

Australia is Australia, Tasmania, New Guinea and Timor.

New Zealand is part of Oceania, never part of australia

[Lydenburg]

None of them survived for a considerable period, or expanded very much territorial-wise. But yes, they did exist...in Senegal and Ghana specifically. @Arch there's been some archaeological work done near Elmina to recover Norman artifacts, starting with a dig by David Calvocoressi in 1977. At the time Calvocoressi mentioned that local tradition still recalled a French presence there which predated the Germans and the Dutch, who arrived later and apparently built new forts over the site.

Colonial France as we remember it did not arrive in this region until the 1600s.

I had no idea either until I read a report on this phenomenon by the Grolier Society a few years ago.

This source claims that Norman interest in the area was shut down due to the Hundred Years' War. This one puts the date of the Norman arrival on the Senegal River at 1364. You can read part of a 1650 manuscript referencing the incident here which states that the Norman settlers departed due to quarrelling amongst themselves.

Multiple studies (in print) have been published on the subject by the West African Archaeological Newsletter.

I think you're just possibly putting two and two together and coming up with six, though I'm willing to reserve judgement until I talk to Chris De Corse.

1) We know Europeans were looking for the mouth of the Senegal river as early as the late 13th century. This is not news. Exploration is, however, categorically not the same as colonisation. I am unconvinced, moreover, by the uncited '1364' date listed on the Blackpast.org website. I would prefer something with a specific citation, please.

2) The reference in Prince Henry the Navigator's life to Normans 'in the area' specifically and explicitly refers to trade at Cape Bojador (you have to go back one page from the link you provided to page 34), specifically at "a very hot place, which is called now-a-days Cape Bugiador, which belongs to the kingdom of Guinea". Cape Bojador is not, by any measure, either Sub-Saharan Africa or even the Senegal River. This is not a particularly remarkable observation by Prince Henry.

3) As to Calvocoressi's work, you'll note that your own book citation specifically says (emphasis added) "supposed early Norman trading site". Given that Elmina is in Ghana - nowhere near Cape Bojador or the Senegal River, this would indeed be news, even if accept that there's a significant difference between 'colony' and 'trading site'.

But this is hardly a definitive citation; certainly it's not proof of medieval Norman colonies in Ghana. Even leaving aside the "supposed", there is no additional date or context in that sentence that might allow me to unpick what's meant by "Norman" in that sentence; whether it refers to medieval Normans, or later individuals from the region of Normandy.

As it happens the colleague in charge of the ongoing archaeological fieldwork at Elmina - the leading current authority on the subject, and indeed the individual who's both the editor of the volume you're citing here and the author of the cited introduction - is someone I know personally, and with whom I'm connected on LinkedIn; so I'll ask him. I'm having some trouble tracking down back issues of the West African Journal of Archaeology so I can check what's being claimed here, even via my academic library access. So best if I just ask the relevant individual directly in order to cut out the misunderstandings that might result from second hand information so I can sort out precisely what is being claimed here.

Capital. If he works at Elmina he's undoubtedly aware of the "French Battery" there. I'm not sure if there's more than one on site, or if if indeed several French batteries existed on the particular site throughout history, but the term was used in the logs of Michael Hemmersam to describe where an earlier fortification was built by French explorers who were the first possessors of the place.

Either way Mr. De Corse will be familiar with the term and it'd be helpful if you make mention of this when you begin your correspondence.

I confess I may have rather naively assumed the reference to founding a settlement at Cape Bojador automatically equated to an undertaking of similar proportions at Elmina if indeed Normans were also present in that region. However, Hemmersman mentions a battery so I conjectured a colony of a more static nature.

[Papait]

Actually the Inuit were later than the Europeans, the Dorset were the original inhabitants, but were driven to extinction by the Inuit between the colonisation in ca. 1000 and the recolonisation about 500 years later

If Greenland is a part of North America, and Alaska is a part of North America, then the Siberians got to Alaska more than 30,000 years ago. Lief comes in a distant second.

yeah, nobody is arguing that the natives and yupiks were there first, but usually we are talking about the first europeans or even asians that had formed advanced civilisations.
Off course the natives were first, and Polynesians likely had been there sometimes themselves, but the first europeans were the vikings

[The Althing Confederacy]

Quite simply it was the NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS who discovered the Americas! All the others came much later!
The only archeological evidence for european rediscovery/conquests (in order);
1) The vikings under Leif Erikson circa 1000ad (near L'ans aux meadows, Canada)
2) Old Chris Colombo who actually discovered, and exploited what is now Cuba, and Haiti (He never once landed in what is now North America)!
3) All the other european nations driven by manifest destiny, and imperial colonialism.

[Papait]

Quite simply it was the NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS who discovered the Americas! All the others came much later!
The only archeological evidence for european rediscovery/conquests (in order);
1) The vikings under Leif Erikson circa 1000ad (near L'ans aux meadows, Canada)
2) Old Chris Colombo who actually discovered, and exploited what is now Cuba, and Haiti (He never once landed in what is now North America)!
3) All the other european nations driven by manifest destiny, and imperial colonialism.

Don't forget the Russians who later on discovered the back route to america

[Buse]

Nationalism often strays into, or relies on, fantasy.

Only that Erdogan was not motivated by nationalism when he said that crap but by religious fundamentalism. Because "Allah's civilisation is the best on the world, so it is logically that Muslims made greater achievements than Columbus".

Regardless how the left leaning academia of the '68 generation love to romantice everything associated with Islam better explorers than the Europeans Muslims were certainly not.
Explorers who could not reach the Azores and Canary Island, islands which are basically in front of the noses of muslims were just primitive and undeveloped.

[The Archregimancy]

Capital. If he works at Elmina he's undoubtedly aware of the "French Battery" there. I'm not sure if there's more than one on site, or if if indeed several French batteries existed on the particular site throughout history, but the term was used in the logs of Michael Hemmersam to describe where an earlier fortification was built by French explorers who were the first possessors of the place.

Either way Mr. De Corse will be familiar with the term and it'd be helpful if you make mention of this when you begin your correspondence.

I confess I may have rather naively assumed the reference to founding a settlement at Cape Bojador automatically equated to an undertaking of similar proportions at Elmina if indeed Normans were also present in that region. However, Hemmersman mentions a battery so I conjectured a colony of a more static nature.

The French were not the first 'possessors' of Elmina - the Portuguese were. The Portuguese built São Jorge da Mina castle in 1482; "el mina" = the mine.

Are you absolutely sure that you're wholly up to date with the archaeology of the site? You keep mentioning things like the West African Archaeological Newsletter, but that was only published from 1964-1971 before it turned into the Journal, and its short paper on the French Battery was published in 1968. The most recent citation you've offered is the Calvocoressi article from 1977. So I just have this nagging feeling that you're relying on some seriously outdated analysis.

You're clearly sincerely interested in the site, so perhaps read Dr De Corse's 2001 book An Archaeology of Elmina if you haven't done so already; I recommend it to all of my students studying the archaeology of early modern globalisation.

You might also be interested in this: http://www.academia.edu/796757/Beads_as ... rchaeology

In any case, I'll likely see Chris De Corse at a conference in January, so I can ask him then if I don't ask him before then.

[Dar Neue Deutsch-Reich]

Siberians discovered America. In the ice age. I don't think they were Muslims.

[Gezi Park]

Everybody knows that it was Tengriist Turks from Siberia who firstly crossed through the Bering Strait into the Americas and eventually became Indians.

How crazy is this guy?
He acts more like KIm Jong UN every day.

What has happened to Turkey?
It used to be a modern nation.

Yeah, it actually was a semi-decent country, but at the end of the day, it's just like every Middle East country filled with fundamentalist whack-jobs.

That's bullshit. You're talking out of your ass without any knowledge.