What are your thoughts on Atheism?

[Zottistan]

No, i was not. Now, your argument is mathmatically invalid. If you are going to stop your special pleading and not add in your most specialest god:
gods that send atheists to heaven (+x,-x)
gods that send christians to heaven (-x,+x)

sum = (0,0)


But the atheists "win" in the sense that christians are going to be wrong in almost all cases about what god exists.

Christian God (1,-1)
No god (0,0)
God that sends all believers to heaven, atheists to hell (1,-1)
God that sends all believers to heaven, atheists nowhere (1,0)
God that sends all believers to hell, atheists to heaven (-1,1)
God that sends all believers to hell, atheists nowhere (-1,0)
God that sends all believers nowhere, atheists to heaven (0,1)
God that sends all believers nowhere, atheists to hell (0,-1)
God that sends all believers to heaven, atheists to heaven (1,1)
God that sends all believers to hell, atheists to hell (-1,-1)
God that sends neither anywhere (0,0)

TOTAL: (1,-1)

This is absolute nonsense, since the Christian god is included in the category of "god that sends Christians to heaven, atheists to hell".

[Arkolon]

I'm sorry, but you can't really get on a high horse when two minutes ago you ultimately said that atheists would "win" if they didn't "win". Dead people can't "win" anything in the wager.

You and your friend were talking about winning. I was just analyzing your faulty logic and pointed out that fault.

Like how I'm pointing out how you're already assuming the afterlife exists to determine your analysis whereas I am not. I've held an objective "afterlife may or may not exists" in the back of my head when reviewing your figures. You have not.

Do you not know what is meant by (0,0)? I have factored it in to every single one of my analyses not only in this thread, but in every other atheism/theism thread I have ever been in. Why are you making stuff up about me?

[Arkolon]

Christian God (1,-1)
No god (0,0)
God that sends all believers to heaven, atheists to hell (1,-1)
God that sends all believers to heaven, atheists nowhere (1,0)
God that sends all believers to hell, atheists to heaven (-1,1)
God that sends all believers to hell, atheists nowhere (-1,0)
God that sends all believers nowhere, atheists to heaven (0,1)
God that sends all believers nowhere, atheists to hell (0,-1)
God that sends all believers to heaven, atheists to heaven (1,1)
God that sends all believers to hell, atheists to hell (-1,-1)
God that sends neither anywhere (0,0)

TOTAL: (1,-1)

This is absolute nonsense, since the Christian god is included in the category of "god that sends Christians to heaven, atheists to hell".

But then there exists another, and another, and another, but there is always one additional God, the Christian God (or the God whose existence we are trying to prove). It isn't so much an invitation to Christianity, more like a refutation of atheism.

[The Union of Tentacles and Grapes]

Yeah, so I added several thousand FSM clones. There is no distinction here. You added an extra outcome to suit your interests, so I am adding a ludicrous number of FSM clones in order to demonstrate your dishonesty, fallacy, and apologetics. If you want to stop that from happening, make a chart. You'll find that your clone has nowhere to fit.

Christian God (1,-1)
No god (0,0)
God that sends all believers to heaven, atheists to hell (1,-1)
God that sends all believers to heaven, atheists nowhere (1,0)
God that sends all believers to hell, atheists to heaven (-1,1)
God that sends all believers to hell, atheists nowhere (-1,0)
God that sends all believers nowhere, atheists to heaven (0,1)
God that sends all believers nowhere, atheists to hell (0,-1)
God that sends all believers to heaven, atheists to heaven (1,1)
God that sends all believers to hell, atheists to hell (-1,-1)
God that sends neither anywhere (0,0)
FSM, sends some atheists to heaven, all christians to hell (-1, +1)
FSM, sends some atheists to heaven, all christians to hell (-1, +1)
FSM, sends some atheists to heaven, all christians to hell (-1, +1)
FSM, sends some atheists to heaven, all christians to hell (-1, +1)
FSM, sends some atheists to heaven, all christians to hell (-1, +1)
FSM, sends some atheists to heaven, all christians to hell (-1, +1)
FSM, sends some atheists to heaven, all christians to hell (-1, +1)
FSM, sends some atheists to heaven, all christians to hell (-1, +1)
FSM, sends some atheists to heaven, all christians to hell (-1, +1)
FSM, sends some atheists to heaven, all christians to hell (-1, +1)
TOTAL: (-9,9)

Fixed it for you, without any rulebreaking at all!

[Dyakovo]

You and your friend were talking about winning. I was just analyzing your faulty logic and pointed out that fault.

Like how I'm pointing out how you're already assuming the afterlife exists to determine your analysis whereas I am not. I've held an objective "afterlife may or may not exists" in the back of my head when reviewing your figures. You have not.

Do you not know what is meant by (0,0)? I have factored it in to every single one of my analyses not only in this thread, but in every other atheism/theism thread I have ever been in. Why are you making stuff up about me?

Your intellectual dishomesty is not something that Esty has made up.

[Esternial]

You and your friend were talking about winning. I was just analyzing your faulty logic and pointed out that fault.

Like how I'm pointing out how you're already assuming the afterlife exists to determine your analysis whereas I am not. I've held an objective "afterlife may or may not exists" in the back of my head when reviewing your figures. You have not.

Do you not know what is meant by (0,0)? I have factored it in to every single one of my analyses not only in this thread, but in every other atheism/theism thread I have ever been in. Why are you making stuff up about me?

Then what do you mean by "dead people can't win anything in the wager".

I've assumed you mean when there is no afterlife, in which case atheists would be okey with the prospect of that and would thus gain a plus.

[The Union of Tentacles and Grapes]

This is absolute nonsense, since the Christian god is included in the category of "god that sends Christians to heaven, atheists to hell".

But then there exists another, and another, and another, but there is always one additional God, the Christian God (or the God whose existence we are trying to prove). It isn't so much an invitation to Christianity, more like a refutation of atheism.

So, are you admitting your special pleading now? Because that additional god is going to include thousands of FSM until you admit your fallacy.

[Arkolon]

No, I am assuming that there is a chance that the afterlife exists. Notice the (0,0) outcomes.

Okey, the way I look at your analysis is from a point in life where one would choice either atheism or Christianity. At this point, you don't know whether the afterlife exists or not. That's an uncertainty.

Atheists don't believe in the afterlife. If they die, they'd be okey with there being no afterlife. If they go to heaven, they'd be wrong, but still be in heaven. So "nothing" and "heaven" are outcomes they'd be okey with.

For Christians, only heaven would be the positive outcome.

Factor this into your analysis and you'll find that being an atheists has the biggest chance of not being disappointed when you die.

Again, you can't "win" anything because you're, you know, dead. Have you ever seen a dead person? How about a dead animal? Do you know what it means when they're not alive-- that they can't think or move or act? Tell me, because at this point I'm having doubts about your knowledge on this one.

[Dyakovo]

Okey, the way I look at your analysis is from a point in life where one would choice either atheism or Christianity. At this point, you don't know whether the afterlife exists or not. That's an uncertainty.

Atheists don't believe in the afterlife. If they die, they'd be okey with there being no afterlife. If they go to heaven, they'd be wrong, but still be in heaven. So "nothing" and "heaven" are outcomes they'd be okey with.

For Christians, only heaven would be the positive outcome.

Factor this into your analysis and you'll find that being an atheists has the biggest chance of not being disappointed when you die.

Again, you can't "win" anything because you're, you know, dead. Have you ever seen a dead person? How about a dead animal? Do you know what it means when they're not alive-- that they can't think or move or act? Tell me, because at this point I'm having doubts about your knowledge on this one.

Yes. I have.

[The Union of Tentacles and Grapes]

Okey, the way I look at your analysis is from a point in life where one would choice either atheism or Christianity. At this point, you don't know whether the afterlife exists or not. That's an uncertainty.

Atheists don't believe in the afterlife. If they die, they'd be okey with there being no afterlife. If they go to heaven, they'd be wrong, but still be in heaven. So "nothing" and "heaven" are outcomes they'd be okey with.

For Christians, only heaven would be the positive outcome.

Factor this into your analysis and you'll find that being an atheists has the biggest chance of not being disappointed when you die.

Again, you can't "win" anything because you're, you know, dead. Have you ever seen a dead person? How about a dead animal? Do you know what it means when they're not alive-- that they can't think or move or act? Tell me, because at this point I'm having doubts about your knowledge on this one.

Yes. They stop existing in any form at all that is anything more than a slowly(or quickly) decomposing corpse. So you might want to give up on that, because it is indicative of no afterlife existing in any form whatsoever.

[Arkolon]

Fixed it for you, without any rulebreaking at all!

There would still exist other gods, such as the Holy Cyclist of Truth, or the God of Darkness, that do the complete opposite of what the FSM did there, and it would make it all add up to (0,0) anyway. I told you it was infinite, so I shortened it to what I previously wrote. I hope you used copy and paste to write that, because you seriously just wasted your time. Also, even from here, "some" atheists isn't the same as "all atheists", so that wouldn't be +1, but a fraction of that.

[Arkolon]

Do you not know what is meant by (0,0)? I have factored it in to every single one of my analyses not only in this thread, but in every other atheism/theism thread I have ever been in. Why are you making stuff up about me?

Your intellectual dishomesty is not something that Esty has made up.

My friends always said I was the most homest guy in the neighbourhood.

[Settrah]

Atheism, I haven't got a problem with. I generally couldn't give two shits what a person does or doesn't believe.

Militant atheists, on the other hand, who want praise and recognition solely for the fact that they are atheists, and who need to remind everyone of that daily, are some of the most annoying arrogant people I've ever met.

I personally consider myself quite an apathetic or pragmatic agnostic, in that I don't think there is any sure way to be entirely certain what is or isn't, and I don't think it's largely an important issue at all in our every day lives.

[Arkolon]

Do you not know what is meant by (0,0)? I have factored it in to every single one of my analyses not only in this thread, but in every other atheism/theism thread I have ever been in. Why are you making stuff up about me?

Then what do you mean by "dead people can't win anything in the wager".

I've assumed you mean when there is no afterlife, in which case atheists would be okey with the prospect of that and would thus gain a plus.

I mean that dead people can't know if they win or not, because they're dead.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Okey, the way I look at your analysis is from a point in life where one would choice either atheism or Christianity. At this point, you don't know whether the afterlife exists or not. That's an uncertainty.

Atheists don't believe in the afterlife. If they die, they'd be okey with there being no afterlife. If they go to heaven, they'd be wrong, but still be in heaven. So "nothing" and "heaven" are outcomes they'd be okey with.

For Christians, only heaven would be the positive outcome.

Factor this into your analysis and you'll find that being an atheists has the biggest chance of not being disappointed when you die.

Again, you can't "win" anything because you're, you know, dead. Have you ever seen a dead person? How about a dead animal? Do you know what it means when they're not alive-- that they can't think or move or act? Tell me, because at this point I'm having doubts about your knowledge on this one.

You're still not getting it.

When you die you're dead and there's no consciousness to speak of and no vital signs either. However, that's not the point in refuting the wager.

The wager predicts that it is better to believe in a deity and an afterlife because maybe a God exists which will send atheists to hell. Atheists say "well, what if you're wrong and all it happens is nothing?". An atheist "wins" in as much as they don't feel regrets knowing that they will just disappear after dying, whereas a theist would potentially feel despair if they could have a consciousness after being dead and realizing there's nothing after being dead.

[The Union of Tentacles and Grapes]

Fixed it for you, without any rulebreaking at all!

There would still exist other gods, such as the Holy Cyclist of Truth, or the God of Darkness, that do the complete opposite of what the FSM did there, and it would make it all add up to (0,0) anyway. I told you it was infinite, so I shortened it to what I previously wrote. I hope you used copy and paste to write that, because you seriously just wasted your time. Also, even from here, "some" atheists isn't the same as "all atheists", so that wouldn't be +1, but a fraction of that.

So, you aren't admitting your special pleading.
But I should remind you that hitler is in all of those christian correct heavens, but none of the thousands of FSM heavens. I think that should also come into consideration, does it really count as a +1 when "paradise" has hitler in it?

[Arkolon]

But then there exists another, and another, and another, but there is always one additional God, the Christian God (or the God whose existence we are trying to prove). It isn't so much an invitation to Christianity, more like a refutation of atheism.

So, are you admitting your special pleading now? Because that additional god is going to include thousands of FSM until you admit your fallacy.

No? What?

[Esternial]

Okey, the way I look at your analysis is from a point in life where one would choice either atheism or Christianity. At this point, you don't know whether the afterlife exists or not. That's an uncertainty.

Atheists don't believe in the afterlife. If they die, they'd be okey with there being no afterlife. If they go to heaven, they'd be wrong, but still be in heaven. So "nothing" and "heaven" are outcomes they'd be okey with.

For Christians, only heaven would be the positive outcome.

Factor this into your analysis and you'll find that being an atheists has the biggest chance of not being disappointed when you die.

Again, you can't "win" anything because you're, you know, dead. Have you ever seen a dead person? How about a dead animal? Do you know what it means when they're not alive-- that they can't think or move or act? Tell me, because at this point I'm having doubts about your knowledge on this one.

Atheists have made peace with there being no afterlife and being dead. If they go to heaven, they'd be okey with that too, even if their views were wrong.

So, of all these possible expectations, atheism covers more than Christianity. It covers them being dead and them going to heaven. Pick atheism and you have a higher chance of getting what you expect (death) or heaven.

If you're incapable of figuring this one out I fear this may be too complex for you.

[Arkolon]

Again, you can't "win" anything because you're, you know, dead. Have you ever seen a dead person? How about a dead animal? Do you know what it means when they're not alive-- that they can't think or move or act? Tell me, because at this point I'm having doubts about your knowledge on this one.

You're still not getting it.

When you die you're dead and there's no consciousness to speak of and no vital signs either. However, that's not the point in refuting the wager.

The wager predicts that it is better to believe in a deity and an afterlife because maybe a God exists which will send atheists to hell. Atheists say "well, what if you're wrong and all it happens is nothing?". An atheist "wins" in as much as they don't feel regrets knowing that they will just disappear after dying, whereas a theist would potentially feel despair if they could have a consciousness after being dead and realizing there's nothing after being dead.

That's "winning the argument", which the atheists would do if no god actually exists. But, for the nth time now, the "win" is NOT about the argument. It is about the dichotomy WITHIN THE AFTERLIFE. HEAVEN is a PLUS ONE; HELL is a MINUS ONE. This should be capitalised, and I should probably sig it too, by now, because this is getting ridiculous now.

[Arkolon]

There would still exist other gods, such as the Holy Cyclist of Truth, or the God of Darkness, that do the complete opposite of what the FSM did there, and it would make it all add up to (0,0) anyway. I told you it was infinite, so I shortened it to what I previously wrote. I hope you used copy and paste to write that, because you seriously just wasted your time. Also, even from here, "some" atheists isn't the same as "all atheists", so that wouldn't be +1, but a fraction of that.

So, you aren't admitting your special pleading.
But I should remind you that hitler is in all of those christian correct heavens, but none of the thousands of FSM heavens. I think that should also come into consideration, does it really count as a +1 when "paradise" has hitler in it?

Why are you asking me for something you should have an opinion on?

[Esternial]

You're still not getting it.

When you die you're dead and there's no consciousness to speak of and no vital signs either. However, that's not the point in refuting the wager.

The wager predicts that it is better to believe in a deity and an afterlife because maybe a God exists which will send atheists to hell. Atheists say "well, what if you're wrong and all it happens is nothing?". An atheist "wins" in as much as they don't feel regrets knowing that they will just disappear after dying, whereas a theist would potentially feel despair if they could have a consciousness after being dead and realizing there's nothing after being dead.

That's "winning the argument", which the atheists would do if no god actually exists. But, for the nth time now, the "win" is NOT about the argument. It is about the dichotomy WITHIN THE AFTERLIFE. HEAVEN is a PLUS ONE; HELL is a MINUS ONE. This should be capitalised, and I should probably sig it too, by now, because this is getting ridiculous now.

It's not about the dichotomy within the afterlife. As rational people we're looking at this from a viewpoint in LIFE. You're assuming the afterlife exists to make your point; it's wrong to make that assumption.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You're still not getting it.

When you die you're dead and there's no consciousness to speak of and no vital signs either. However, that's not the point in refuting the wager.

The wager predicts that it is better to believe in a deity and an afterlife because maybe a God exists which will send atheists to hell. Atheists say "well, what if you're wrong and all it happens is nothing?". An atheist "wins" in as much as they don't feel regrets knowing that they will just disappear after dying, whereas a theist would potentially feel despair if they could have a consciousness after being dead and realizing there's nothing after being dead.

That's "winning the argument", which the atheists would do if no god actually exists. But, for the nth time now, the "win" is NOT about the argument. It is about the dichotomy WITHIN THE AFTERLIFE. HEAVEN is a PLUS ONE; HELL is a MINUS ONE. This should be capitalised, and I should probably sig it too, by now, because this is getting ridiculous now.

Here's your problem with your argument:

You're thinking within the constrains of there actually existing an afterlife. I take it you're religious?

If you think in there being just an afterlife of course, your point is valid, but the question the wager asks is "what if there is a God?" Atheists just go "well what if there isn't?"

That's why the wager is a flimsy argument. It can be reversed to actually agree with atheism or any other belief just by rephrasing the question.

[Arkolon]

Again, you can't "win" anything because you're, you know, dead. Have you ever seen a dead person? How about a dead animal? Do you know what it means when they're not alive-- that they can't think or move or act? Tell me, because at this point I'm having doubts about your knowledge on this one.

Atheists have made peace with there being no afterlife and being dead. If they go to heaven, they'd be okey with that too, even if their views were wrong.

There is no life after death when there is no afterlife. You need life to be conscious, and you need consciousness to think and reflect. Again, seriously, do you know how death works? Do you know what life is? How about an "afterlife"? Mm? Do you want to go to Google Translate and try again, or do you think you can manage this one now?

So, of all these possible expectations, atheism covers more than Christianity. It covers them being dead and them going to heaven. Pick atheism and you have a higher chance of getting what you expect (death) or heaven.

This isn't about getting "what you expect". This isn't about "winning" at all. It's about getting into heaven, full stop. That is what Pascal's wager is about, getting into the better afterlife, and it is not about some shallow argument-winning. If your idea of atheism is just to die to say "ha, there's no God" to all of those Christians still alive, you.. do understand how you can't do that, because, you know, you'd be dead?

[The Union of Tentacles and Grapes]

Atheists have made peace with there being no afterlife and being dead. If they go to heaven, they'd be okey with that too, even if their views were wrong.

There is no life after death when there is no afterlife. You need life to be conscious, and you need consciousness to think and reflect. Again, seriously, do you know how death works? Do you know what life is? How about an "afterlife"? Mm? Do you want to go to Google Translate and try again, or do you think you can manage this one now?

So, of all these possible expectations, atheism covers more than Christianity. It covers them being dead and them going to heaven. Pick atheism and you have a higher chance of getting what you expect (death) or heaven.

This isn't about getting "what you expect". This isn't about "winning" at all. It's about getting into heaven, full stop. That is what Pascal's wager is about, getting into the better afterlife, and it is not about some shallow argument-winning. If your idea of atheism is just to die to say "ha, there's no God" to all of those Christians still alive, you.. do understand how you can't do that, because, you know, you'd be dead?

So are you now claiming that predictive value, and therefore coinciding with truth, are irrelevant?

[Arkolon]

That's "winning the argument", which the atheists would do if no god actually exists. But, for the nth time now, the "win" is NOT about the argument. It is about the dichotomy WITHIN THE AFTERLIFE. HEAVEN is a PLUS ONE; HELL is a MINUS ONE. This should be capitalised, and I should probably sig it too, by now, because this is getting ridiculous now.

Here's your problem with your argument:

You're thinking within the constrains of there actually existing an afterlife. I take it you're religious?

No, I'm an open-minded agnostic atheist and a sceptic. This means I am sceptic of my atheism, as well, just as much as theism. I don't make special exceptions.

If you think in there being just an afterlife of course, your point is valid, but the question the wager asks is "what if there is a God?" Atheists just go "well what if there isn't?"

Then (0,0). Note that 1 + 0 = 1.

That's why the wager is a flimsy argument. It can be reversed to actually agree with atheism or any other belief just by rephrasing the question.

Err, no? How?