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Hubble goes deep

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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:27 am

Avenio wrote:
Barringtonia wrote:Where does Higgs Boson fit into all this?


The Higgs Boson is one of the subatomic particles that make up protons and neutrons, which give them the properties we associate with matter. (Magnetism, mass, spin etc.) The bosons are particles that, from what I can gather from whatever arcane language its Wikipedia article is written in, gives atoms their ability to become and remain stable. (ie stay in proton-electron-neutron form)
The model that physicists use to study these subatomic particles, however, predicts the existence of another type of particle, which gives the atom its mass, which is the Higgs Boson. The problem with finding these particles is that it requires a colossal amount of energy for them to break the atomic bonds and split into their subatomic particles, and these particles have a very short lifespan and are very difficult to find, meaning we cannot see them in nature. This was why projects like CERN were created, to try and prove the existence of the Higgs Boson and prove the Standard Model correct, or find that they do not, at which point the physicists need to go back to the old drawing board and come up with a new theory.


Ah, okay, so Higgs Boson is more a look at what makes up matter whereas what we're discussing is how that matter is, amm, moving, although I guess they're very much intertwined.

I sort of read all this stuff, from Just Six Numbers to various cosmological books but rarely sat with someone who could reduce the conversation to parts, I do love the Carl Sagan videos.

For those who want to watch the whole thing, starts here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30j70GT1 ... playnext=1

it kind of makes me question a couple of things, the Big Bang itself doesn't seem a conclusive explanation in some senses though I suspect I don't quite get it. It's the singular point I have issues with, especially if we're going along with the dark matter theory, which also seems... I don't know, an answer in place of an 'I don't know' - for infinite space, I assume infinite time and thus a Big Bang seems, well slightly unnecessary - could we be mistaking something that was simply a cataclysmic event in an existing universe?

Ah, I see scientists are way ahead of me..

While the Big Bang model is well established in cosmology, it is likely to be refined in the future. Little is known about the earliest moments of the Universe's history. The Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems require the existence of a singularity at the beginning of cosmic time. However, these theorems assume that general relativity is correct, but general relativity must break down before the Universe reaches the Planck temperature, and a correct treatment of quantum gravity may avoid the singularity.[58]
Some proposals, each of which entails untested hypotheses, are:

models including the Hartle–Hawking no-boundary condition in which the whole of space-time is finite; the Big Bang does represent the limit of time, but without the need for a singularity.[59]
brane cosmology models[60] in which inflation is due to the movement of branes in string theory; the pre-big bang model; the ekpyrotic model, in which the Big Bang is the result of a collision between branes; and the cyclic model, a variant of the ekpyrotic model in which collisions occur periodically.[61][62][63]
chaotic inflation, in which inflation events start here and there in a random quantum gravity foam, each leading to a bubble universe expanding from its own big bang.[64][65]
Proposals in the last two categories see the Big Bang as an event in a much larger and older Universe, or multiverse, and not the literal beginning.
Last edited by Barringtonia on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:43 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:13 am

EvilDarkMagicians wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/52740/title/Hubble_goes_deep_and_wide_for_new_view_of_galaxies

Hubble looks further back in time than ever before, seeing galaxies as they were 13.7 billion years ago.

http://www.sciencenews.org/pictures/hub ... y_zoom.jpg

It's really something, isn't it? With rare exception, every single object, right down to the tiniest specks are all galaxies. More than 7500 of them in an area of space the size of a piece of paper 2mm on a side held up at arm's length. And to think they almost scrapped Hubble.

I find it really awesome and wondrous. How about you?


I cannot see the pictures. :(

Thats cause god hates you.
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Mean Feat
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Postby Mean Feat » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:15 am

Accepting the statement that there is no centre to the universe (or point in space where the big bang "happened") ... isn't it true that vast amounts of electromagnetic radiation headed outwards at the speed of light, before the relatively pokey subatomic particles were formed?

I'm wondering why there isn't therefore a sphere of radiation even if we can't see it (heading away with nothing to bounce off, we wouldn't) and wouldn't it make sense that the physical centre of the universe would be the centre-point of that sphere?
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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:23 am

Mean Feat wrote:Accepting the statement that there is no centre to the universe (or point in space where the big bang "happened") ... isn't it true that vast amounts of electromagnetic radiation headed outwards at the speed of light, before the relatively pokey subatomic particles were formed?


i think this is a confusion that needs to be cleared somewhat, and I suspect it's related to a misunderstanding of the geometry of the universe. Someone with a better sense of it should explain this confusion.

I'm wondering why there isn't therefore a sphere of radiation even if we can't see it (heading away with nothing to bounce off, we wouldn't) and wouldn't it make sense that the physical centre of the universe would be the centre-point of that sphere?


I don't think we can see the edges of the universe, which also makes it hard to work out what any theoretical centre might be, I think the theory switches between 'there are edges' and 'there are no edges', or at least, edges are irrelevant given dimensions.
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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:47 am

Actually, the Higgs boson is used to explain why the W+, W-, and Z bosons have mass.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:51 am

Mean Feat wrote:I'm wondering why there isn't therefore a sphere of radiation even if we can't see it (heading away with nothing to bounce off, we wouldn't) and wouldn't it make sense that the physical centre of the universe would be the centre-point of that sphere?


There is a kinda "sphere" of radiation. It's called the cosmic microwave background radiation. However, no matter what point you are at in the universe, this field of radiation looks as if you are at the center. The universe is homogeneous on the large scale. This means that it looks the same no matter where you are. Just as galaxies (matter) are all moving away from each other uniformly, so is the cosmic background radiation.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:55 am

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:Actually, the Higgs boson is used to explain why the W+, W-, and Z bosons have mass.


Or, at least, that's part of it's properties. Many theoretical extensions to the standard model actually have more than one Higgs boson.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Mean Feat
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Postby Mean Feat » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:58 am

Barringtonia wrote:
Mean Feat wrote:I'm wondering why there isn't therefore a sphere of radiation even if we can't see it (heading away with nothing to bounce off, we wouldn't) and wouldn't it make sense that the physical centre of the universe would be the centre-point of that sphere?


I don't think we can see the edges of the universe, which also makes it hard to work out what any theoretical centre might be, I think the theory switches between 'there are edges' and 'there are no edges', or at least, edges are irrelevant given dimensions.


What I'm getting from Getbrett and Unhealthy Truthseeker with the balloon analogy is this: all of space expands and the "location" of the big bang is NO LONGER at one point. What was once the only location (the singularity) is now the entire universe, so in a sense the universe is still the "only location there is" but with more dimensions.

Now, there are several reasons I can see why we may never see or be able to prove edges to the universe. There is the "nothing to bounce off" problem. There is red-shift, which at some distance would reduce any such 'back-scatter' to literally zero energy radiation (and can we even say that anything beyond that exists? Radiation carrying negative energy, I think that's impossible.) And there's the light-cone: two things travelling apart at the speed of light (or even one at the speed of light and the other moving at all) can't ever meet again, one would have to reverse direction and go faster than the speed of light to catch the other, so they aren't in each others' universes any more.

So I'm not saying that observing a sphere of radiation from the early universe is even possible. I'm just wondering if there is a center (not to be mistaken for the 'location' of the big bang) defined as equidistant from the earliest radiation out there.

If it can't be observed it doesn't exist, I guess. Or perhaps it has some logical null-state, where even asserting that "it doesn't exist" is a nonsensical statement.

Excuse me while I rest my head on the keyboard l,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, bhuyyyb hhhhllhj.

Ah, that's better! ;)
— written by Mean Feat.

Mean Feat wrote:The Latham of the Liberals. Tony Abbott.

Tanya Plibersek Mon 22 Feb 2010 wrote:"Tony is the 'Mark Latham' of the Liberal Party.

She didn't get to explain why.

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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:02 am

Mean Feat wrote:What I'm getting from Getbrett and Unhealthy Truthseeker with the balloon analogy is this: all of space expands and the "location" of the big bang is NO LONGER at one point. What was once the only location (the singularity) is now the entire universe, so in a sense the universe is still the "only location there is" but with more dimensions.

Now, there are several reasons I can see why we may never see or be able to prove edges to the universe. There is the "nothing to bounce off" problem. There is red-shift, which at some distance would reduce any such 'back-scatter' to literally zero energy radiation (and can we even say that anything beyond that exists? Radiation carrying negative energy, I think that's impossible.) And there's the light-cone: two things travelling apart at the speed of light (or even one at the speed of light and the other moving at all) can't ever meet again, one would have to reverse direction and go faster than the speed of light to catch the other, so they aren't in each others' universes any more.

So I'm not saying that observing a sphere of radiation from the early universe is even possible. I'm just wondering if there is a center (not to be mistaken for the 'location' of the big bang) defined as equidistant from the earliest radiation out there.

If it can't be observed it doesn't exist, I guess. Or perhaps it has some logical null-state, where even asserting that "it doesn't exist" is a nonsensical statement.

Excuse me while I rest my head on the keyboard l,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, bhuyyyb hhhhllhj.

Ah, that's better! ;)


You're still thinking of it as an expansion in space. Everything is moving uniformly away from everything else in such a way that at any point, you seem to be at the center. Every point in the universe appears to be the center of the universe according to the people at that point.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Mean Feat
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Postby Mean Feat » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:03 am

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Mean Feat wrote:I'm wondering why there isn't therefore a sphere of radiation even if we can't see it (heading away with nothing to bounce off, we wouldn't) and wouldn't it make sense that the physical centre of the universe would be the centre-point of that sphere?


There is a kinda "sphere" of radiation. It's called the cosmic microwave background radiation. However, no matter what point you are at in the universe, this field of radiation looks as if you are at the center. The universe is homogeneous on the large scale. This means that it looks the same no matter where you are. Just as galaxies (matter) are all moving away from each other uniformly, so is the cosmic background radiation.


This is a thing I've never understood about the CMBR. Is it continuing radiation from matter which is "out there" or is there some way we "see" radiation which is headed away from us?
— written by Mean Feat.

Mean Feat wrote:The Latham of the Liberals. Tony Abbott.

Tanya Plibersek Mon 22 Feb 2010 wrote:"Tony is the 'Mark Latham' of the Liberal Party.

She didn't get to explain why.

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:06 am

Mean Feat wrote:This is a thing I've never understood about the CMBR. Is it continuing radiation from matter which is "out there" or is there some way we "see" radiation which is headed away from us?


It is radiation which permeates every point in space. Every photon in the CMBR is moving away from every other photon in the CMBR.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:10 am

Lackadaisical2 wrote:I was hoping for more sexual jokes, tbh.


Breaking news: "even Hubble failed to find the G-spot"

Happy ?

And yes, the results are pretty. Makes one feel all tiny and insignificant :)
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Mean Feat
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Postby Mean Feat » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:11 am

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Mean Feat wrote:What I'm getting from Getbrett and Unhealthy Truthseeker with the balloon analogy is this: all of space expands and the "location" of the big bang is NO LONGER at one point. What was once the only location (the singularity) is now the entire universe, so in a sense the universe is still the "only location there is" but with more dimensions.

Now, there are several reasons I can see why we may never see or be able to prove edges to the universe. There is the "nothing to bounce off" problem. There is red-shift, which at some distance would reduce any such 'back-scatter' to literally zero energy radiation (and can we even say that anything beyond that exists? Radiation carrying negative energy, I think that's impossible.) And there's the light-cone: two things travelling apart at the speed of light (or even one at the speed of light and the other moving at all) can't ever meet again, one would have to reverse direction and go faster than the speed of light to catch the other, so they aren't in each others' universes any more.

So I'm not saying that observing a sphere of radiation from the early universe is even possible. I'm just wondering if there is a center (not to be mistaken for the 'location' of the big bang) defined as equidistant from the earliest radiation out there.

If it can't be observed it doesn't exist, I guess. Or perhaps it has some logical null-state, where even asserting that "it doesn't exist" is a nonsensical statement.

Excuse me while I rest my head on the keyboard l,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, bhuyyyb hhhhllhj.

Ah, that's better! ;)


You're still thinking of it as an expansion in space. Everything is moving uniformly away from everything else in such a way that at any point, you seem to be at the center. Every point in the universe appears to be the center of the universe according to the people at that point.


Is it correct to say that "every moving uniformly away from everything else" doesn't apply within galaxies, which are held together by gravity? That is, that the expansion applies everywhere but is countered by gravity locally?

Also, for what you say to be true isn't it necessary that at some time in the past the speed of light was not a limit? It seems to me that an observer travelling at the maximum possible speed from the earliest possible moment would see NOTHING in one direction ("away" from the center.)

I have a nasty feeling you are going to invoke inflation on me. I can take it. I think.
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Mean Feat wrote:The Latham of the Liberals. Tony Abbott.

Tanya Plibersek Mon 22 Feb 2010 wrote:"Tony is the 'Mark Latham' of the Liberal Party.

She didn't get to explain why.

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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:13 am

EDIT: Entirely irrelevant statement by me :)
Last edited by Barringtonia on Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Mean Feat » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:13 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:I was hoping for more sexual jokes, tbh.


Breaking news: "even Hubble failed to find the G-spot"


Good one!

What's this Huge Bosom I've been hearing about ?
— written by Mean Feat.

Mean Feat wrote:The Latham of the Liberals. Tony Abbott.

Tanya Plibersek Mon 22 Feb 2010 wrote:"Tony is the 'Mark Latham' of the Liberal Party.

She didn't get to explain why.

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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:19 am

Mean Feat wrote:Is it correct to say that "every moving uniformly away from everything else" doesn't apply within galaxies, which are held together by gravity? That is, that the expansion applies everywhere but is countered by gravity locally?


That is correct.

Also, for what you say to be true isn't it necessary that at some time in the past the speed of light was not a limit? It seems to me that an observer travelling at the maximum possible speed from the earliest possible moment would see NOTHING in one direction ("away" from the center.)


Let me sleep on this one.
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What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Postby Nazi Centauri » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:25 am

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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:27 am

Here is a link to a paper I did on the subject of cosmology, if anyone is interested.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Mean Feat
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Postby Mean Feat » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:28 am

Barringtonia wrote:
Mean Feat wrote:Also, for what you say to be true isn't it necessary that at some time in the past the speed of light was not a limit? It seems to me that an observer travelling at the maximum possible speed from the earliest possible moment would see NOTHING in one direction ("away" from the center.)


Two things moving away from each other at the speed of light means that the distance between them is 'expanding' faster than the speed of light I guess.


I was wrong before about two things moving apart each at the speed of light. They could both reverse (eg, by reflection) and meet again. Doesn't have to be practical to be possible.
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Mean Feat wrote:Is it correct to say that "every moving uniformly away from everything else" doesn't apply within galaxies, which are held together by gravity? That is, that the expansion applies everywhere but is countered by gravity locally?


That is correct.


Yay!

Also, for what you say to be true isn't it necessary that at some time in the past the speed of light was not a limit? It seems to me that an observer travelling at the maximum possible speed from the earliest possible moment would see NOTHING in one direction ("away" from the center.)


Let me sleep on this one.


No prob.

This stuff is too hard for me, and I know it. I try reading it, but it feels like I have a mountain-range of assumptions and when I conquer one there is another bigger one behind it. The ironical reference Hawking made to "knowing the mind of God" seems painfully relevant.
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Mean Feat wrote:The Latham of the Liberals. Tony Abbott.

Tanya Plibersek Mon 22 Feb 2010 wrote:"Tony is the 'Mark Latham' of the Liberal Party.

She didn't get to explain why.

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Postby United Russian State » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:25 am

Meh, cant say I find it interesting.
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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:26 am

United Russian State wrote:Meh, cant say I find it interesting.


Thanks for letting us know early, we were about to prepare a summary to TG you with.
Last edited by Barringtonia on Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby United Russian State » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:33 am

Barringtonia wrote:
United Russian State wrote:Meh, cant say I find it interesting.


Thanks for letting us know early, we were about to prepare a summary to TG you with.


You welcome
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The U.S. did not controle the corrupt regiems it set up against the Soviet Union, it just sugested things and changed leaders if they weer not takeing enough sugestions-Omnicracy

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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:37 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:I was hoping for more sexual jokes, tbh.


Breaking news: "even Hubble failed to find the G-spot"

yes

Happy ?

until you said that :(
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Postby KiloMikeAlpha » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:39 am

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
KiloMikeAlpha wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Barringtonia wrote:Is there a Cliff Notes cartoon depiction of this stuff, I get the idea of a balloon - or a suppose a tarpaulin being stretched - but I can't quite picture it in my head.

Nothing too complicated, I have the attention span of an NSG poster.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WL_vtu4r1w


Riddle me this batman. If the Universe is a 2d plane, then why, when I look up I see stars. When I look all around I see stars. The universe is clearly a sphere containing all matter.


Because the universe is a 3d plane curved into a 4th dimension. Just like Carl said.


3D plane? Tell me what is the equation for a 3D Plane? You cant have one. A plane is 2D.
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KiloMikeAlpha
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Postby KiloMikeAlpha » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:43 am

Nadkor wrote:Seeing as the fourth dimension has been mentioned and discussed here already, if anyone can give me the most simply and layman description of what the fourth dimension is I will be very grateful for the small amount of knowledge and understanding they will have give me.


Time is the fourth dimension.

Length=X
Width=Y
Height=Z
Time=t
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