Gamergate, Feminisim, and Journalistic Ethics

[Arkinesia]

Of course not.

The only way journalistic corruption in the gaming industry can be rooted out is to drive out every woman with threats of rape and murder if not actual rape and murder. Because gaming journalism is corrupted by the presence of vaginas in the gaming industry. BROS BEFORE HOS! *nod nod*

The Fine Young Capitalists are just patriarchy-oppressed, self-hating women who are trying to force women out of the gaming industry by helping women get creative ideas for new games made by a development team comprised entirely of women.

[Gauthier]

The only way journalistic corruption in the gaming industry can be rooted out is to drive out every woman with threats of rape and murder if not actual rape and murder. Because gaming journalism is corrupted by the presence of vaginas in the gaming industry. BROS BEFORE HOS! *nod nod*

The Fine Young Capitalists are just patriarchy-oppressed, self-hating women who are trying to force women out of the gaming industry by helping women get creative ideas for new games made by a development team comprised entirely of women.

And so now we've discovered that there are two things at the core of the nontroversy: General internet neckbeard misogyny, combined with 4chan being butthurt over the sinking of its pet project The Fine Young Capitalists.

[Hirota]

Strawman? I don't think you understand what that means.

You are misrepresentating what I am saying - that is a strawman. Do YOU know what a strawman is?

The fact you found some people in the TFYC doesn't prove others aren't doing what is claimed.

This is a strawman - claiming that I'm saying nobody is "doing what is claimed." Not only is it a strawman, it is a lie - you are lying when you say that.

You also STILL focused on what one group is supposedly doing what is claimed, and not looking at what the other group is up to. http://i.imgur.com/SxTrqWb.jpg

The fact you have feminists? That doesn't prove much. There are feminists and non-feminists in the anti-gamer side.

It proves a lot actually. It proves gamergate is not a mysoginistic movement, in spite of how many people would dearly love to pretend otherwise.

This crusade will most likely fail since your attention is focused on correcting peoples "misconceptions" about your fanbase; focusing on Zoe, Anita and the "feminazis...."

This is another lie. You've already been told what we are doing.

So again what are you doing to achieve your goals.

As a Brit, I personally am actively doing my upmost to make sure the British Mainstream media do their best to present a balanced story. I've written complaints to news outlets. Otherwise I'm on here and other sites standing for my values, fighting the good fight, trying to help those people who might be unsure about what gamergate is really about, and combatting the lies that have been perpetuated on here by some people.

As a movement? We are focused on engaging with outlets that have made fair efforts to be fair and balanced, campaigning for advertisers to remove their adverts from press outlets who have been leading the corruption in the gaming industry, demonstrating the diversity of the movement (#notyourshield) and countering the lies and insults some would use as a smoke screen to hide the real issues. Our focus is now on establishing a wider voice in the general media, and combatting the spread of lies perpetuated on sites such as MSNBC and CNN, and doing our uptmost to oppose the fringe elements you'd like to pretend fill our ranks.

Again, claiming we focus on ZQ, AS and other supposed feminazis is another lie. Stop lying.

The question of validity of Reviews is a valid argument. Again sitting there and going OMG the lack of ethics! This is not a new thing. As mentioned again. If they have ads for games; their reviews are questionable.

Again; this business is volatile. Disappearing readership is deadly.

Forget about Zoe, Anita and the feminists. Focus on the publications. Drop their readership. Less readers; less ads. They fail.

We are monitoring their readership stats (with some satisfaction), and like I have already said, we are (successfully) targetting their advertisers.

[The Black Forrest]

Strawman? I don't think you understand what that means.

You are misrepresentating what I am saying - that is a strawman. Do YOU know what a strawman is?

The fact you found some people in the TFYC doesn't prove others aren't doing what is claimed.

This is a strawman - claiming that I'm saying nobody is "doing what is claimed." Not only is it a strawman, it is a lie - you are lying when you say that.

You also STILL focused on what one group is supposedly doing what is claimed, and not looking at what the other group is up to. http://i.imgur.com/SxTrqWb.jpg

The fact you have feminists? That doesn't prove much. There are feminists and non-feminists in the anti-gamer side.

It proves a lot actually. It proves gamergate is not a mysoginistic movement, in spite of how many people would dearly love to pretend otherwise.

This crusade will most likely fail since your attention is focused on correcting peoples "misconceptions" about your fanbase; focusing on Zoe, Anita and the "feminazis...."

This is another lie. You've already been told what we are doing.

So again what are you doing to achieve your goals.

As a Brit, I personally am actively doing my upmost to make sure the British Mainstream media do their best to present a balanced story. I've written complaints to news outlets. Otherwise I'm on here and other sites standing for my values, fighting the good fight, trying to help those people who might be unsure about what gamergate is really about, and combatting the lies that have been perpetuated on here by some people.

As a movement? We are focused on engaging with outlets that have made fair efforts to be fair and balanced, campaigning for advertisers to remove their adverts from press outlets who have been leading the corruption in the gaming industry, demonstrating the diversity of the movement (#notyourshield) and countering the lies and insults some would use as a smoke screen to hide the real issues. Our focus is now on establishing a wider voice in the general media, and combatting the spread of lies perpetuated on sites such as MSNBC and CNN, and doing our uptmost to oppose the fringe elements you'd like to pretend fill our ranks.

Again, claiming we focus on ZQ, AS and other supposed feminazis is another lie. Stop lying.

The question of validity of Reviews is a valid argument. Again sitting there and going OMG the lack of ethics! This is not a new thing. As mentioned again. If they have ads for games; their reviews are questionable.

Again; this business is volatile. Disappearing readership is deadly.

Forget about Zoe, Anita and the feminists. Focus on the publications. Drop their readership. Less readers; less ads. They fail.

We are monitoring their readership stats (with some satisfaction), and like I have already said, we are (successfully) targetting their advertisers.

Ash was right. "so the answer is "nothing"? then whats the point of bringing up this stuff over and over again."

Enjoy your revolution. Wake me up when it's over.

[Hirota]

Ash was right. "so the answer is "nothing"? then whats the point of bringing up this stuff over and over again."

Enjoy your revolution. Wake me up when it's over.

Bye then.

[Ashmoria]

I just want to know if anyone is working on improving gaming journalism and if so what are they doing? I don't care what is being reported. I want to know what is being done.

We are trying to ensure that gaming journalists recognise there is a problem first. Many already do (and a list is below). Some of us have started our own sites.

Gaming Sites:-

Games Nosh
N4G
Gamer Headlines
Game Revolution
Niche Gamer
Bright Side of News
Geekscape
Invision Game Community
TechRaptor
GamesReviews
Brutal Gamer
Evil Avatar
Revue Labs
GoodGamers.us
All Games Beta
Siliconera
Gamnesia
Gematsu
Super Best Friends Play
Operation Rainfall
Geimaku
IncGamers
Blue's News
WTB Fun
Indie Juice
Gather Your Party
Everybody Plays
XboxMAD
Attack of the Fanboy
Original-Gamer.com
Gamersyde
Shacknews
The Escapist

Geek/Pop Culture News/Review/Opinion Sites:-

Word of the Nerd
NerdyRaptor

Other Special Interest Sites:-

APGNation
The Ralph Retort
Encyclopedia Dramatica
Know Your Meme
mindlesszombiestudios

well that is useful. time will tell which ones can get the audience needed.

[Gravlen]

My cause is to stop harassment. I'm sure you can explain why that's a bad cause to have.

You should watch the huffington post video I posted earlier. I clearly can't convince you that you're on the wrong side to promote your cause (which is not a bad cause to have!) , maybe these three women will enlighten you.

Mirror as well: http://youtu.be/qtzrUsi6Y1s

I don't think they're making particularly good arguments, though I agree with Georgina Young, who's saying what I've been saying: The GamerGate hashtag is poisoned from the start. You can't rally behind it and not expect to talk about harassment or the treatment of minorities since that's what caused the "movement" to take off in the first place.

It's kinda like complaining about how people aren't listening to your well-reasoned opposition to labour unions when you rally behind the hashtag #KuKluxKlan. Sure, they may have some valid points about the downsides of unionizing, but their roots are in white supremacy and people won't ignore or forget what has happened in the past.

Jemma Morgan is wrong when she's asking for objective reviews. There is no such thing - an objective review is simply a description of a game. Interesting, also, that she's bringing up Quinn and Sarkeesian... You know, when this isn't about Quinn and Sarkeesian.

They're also wrong on several counts, and they avoid several of the questions - they don't adress the part of the GamerGate movement attacking feminists in academia, for example - including the origins of GamerGate. Also, they simply dismiss the concerns of harassment and threats, so no, this video is not at all enlightening in that respect.

[The Black Forrest]

I don't think they're making particularly good arguments, though I agree with Georgina Young, who's saying what I've been saying: The GamerGate hashtag is poisoned from the start. You can't rally behind it and not expect to talk about harassment or the treatment of minorities since that's what caused the "movement" to take off in the first place.

I did find her the more interesting of the three and think she should be called back to discuss it alone.

That has been said more then once and the usually reply is that is not the case, lies, you don't understand. It's just a minority.

This is why "gamergate" will go the way of the dodo like so many other efforts of the past and *sighs* long past.

The name itself is lame. People are starting to roll their eyes at "gate" being applied to everything.

It's kinda like complaining about how people aren't listening to your well-reasoned opposition to labour unions when you rally behind the hashtag #KuKluxKlan. Sure, they may have some valid points about the downsides of unionizing, but their roots are in white supremacy and people won't ignore or forget what has happened in the past.

But but but that not what's been going on and the other side does it more and the conspiracy of getting our message out.

Jemma Morgan is wrong when she's asking for objective reviews. There is no such thing - an objective review is simply a description of a game. Interesting, also, that she's bringing up Quinn and Sarkeesian... You know, when this isn't about Quinn and Sarkeesian.

Indeed. Reviews have never been objective. As mentioned the ad revenue......

They're also wrong on several counts, and they avoid several of the questions - they don't address the part of the GamerGate movement attacking feminists in academia, for example - including the origins of GamerGate. Also, they simply dismiss the concerns of harassment and threats, so no, this video is not at all enlightening in that respect.

That's the thing of it. Deny deny deny. They started out saying it wasn't about harassment or treats and latter light conceded there are people doing that. And the other side is doing it more and nothing is being said arguments.

Georginna is on to something with the name being poisoned. The "true" gamers should probably start a new hashtag and leave gamergate to the people who want to fight the good fight. However, the problem is they won't get the attention of the press......

[Dyakovo]

The name itself is lame. People are starting to roll their eyes at "gate" being applied to everything.

As well they should. People need to understand that "Watergate" is called that because of The Watergate Hotel.

[Haktiva]

I just sit back and laugh at the feminists and SJWs as they lose their money making opportunity as gamers start boycotting the places they've infested. It's freaking great!

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I just want to know if anyone is working on improving gaming journalism and if so what are they doing? I don't care what is being reported. I want to know what is being done.

We are trying to ensure that gaming journalists recognise there is a problem first. Many already do (and a list is below). Some of us have started our own sites.

Gaming Sites:-

Games Nosh
N4G
Gamer Headlines
Game Revolution
Niche Gamer
Bright Side of News
Geekscape
Invision Game Community
TechRaptor
GamesReviews
Brutal Gamer
Evil Avatar
Revue Labs
GoodGamers.us
All Games Beta
Siliconera
Gamnesia
Gematsu
Super Best Friends Play
Operation Rainfall
Geimaku
IncGamers
Blue's News
WTB Fun
Indie Juice
Gather Your Party
Everybody Plays
XboxMAD
Attack of the Fanboy
Original-Gamer.com
Gamersyde
Shacknews
The Escapist

Geek/Pop Culture News/Review/Opinion Sites:-

Word of the Nerd
NerdyRaptor

Other Special Interest Sites:-

APGNation
The Ralph Retort
Encyclopedia Dramatica
Know Your Meme
mindlesszombiestudios

Have those of you who have started your sites sought out legal channels (setting up a DBA and whatnot to protect your business in your home state?).

Even if you're not into this to earn money you should register the name. I think it's illegal to do business as an entity and not have said entity registered, but I might be wrong.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I just sit back and laugh at the feminists and SJWs as they lose their money making opportunity as gamers start boycotting the places they've infested. It's freaking great!

If you really think feminism and SJW are what's at stake here you need an update.

Sure, the gaming community is looking at high rated publications with skepticism, but since when has this been a feminist issue?

[Haktiva]

I just sit back and laugh at the feminists and SJWs as they lose their money making opportunity as gamers start boycotting the places they've infested. It's freaking great!

If you really think feminism and SJW are what's at stake here you need an update.

Sure, the gaming community is looking at high rated publications with skepticism, but since when has this been a feminist issue?

What's at stake aside from the free market and consumer choice? SJWs typically don't like that.

[Dyakovo]

I just sit back and laugh at the feminists and SJWs as they lose their money making opportunity as gamers start boycotting the places they've infested. It's freaking great!

If you really think feminism and SJW are what's at stake here you need an update.

Sure, the gaming community is looking at high rated publications with skepticism, but since when has this been a feminist issue?

Since the poster in question is a misogynist.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If you really think feminism and SJW are what's at stake here you need an update.

Sure, the gaming community is looking at high rated publications with skepticism, but since when has this been a feminist issue?

What's at stake aside from the free market and consumer choice? SJWs typically don't like that.

Then This is a business issue, not a gender issue.

Stop politicizing it just to score points in the thread. It's not working.

[Haktiva]

What's at stake aside from the free market and consumer choice? SJWs typically don't like that.

Then This is a business issue, not a gender issue.

Stop politicizing it just to score points in the thread. It's not working.

There's a point system here? Why wasn't I informed?

And yeah, it is a business issue. feminists and and SJWs make their money by turning it into a gender issue, and the gamers aren't letting that happen.

[Haktiva]

If you really think feminism and SJW are what's at stake here you need an update.

Sure, the gaming community is looking at high rated publications with skepticism, but since when has this been a feminist issue?

Since the poster in question is a misogynist.

yeah, and?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Then This is a business issue, not a gender issue.

Stop politicizing it just to score points in the thread. It's not working.

There's a point system here? Why wasn't I informed?

And yeah, it is a business issue. feminists and and SJWs make their money by turning it into a gender issue, and the gamers aren't letting that happen.

It's because the tag is tainted with the progenitors of the movement. Which is obviously true. They went around making threats to women and men who disagreed with them.

If you want to make a change divorce from the tag, like I've said a million times now

[Haktiva]

There's a point system here? Why wasn't I informed?

And yeah, it is a business issue. feminists and and SJWs make their money by turning it into a gender issue, and the gamers aren't letting that happen.

It's because the tag is tainted with the progenitors of the movement. Which is obviously true. They went around making threats to women and men who disagreed with them.

If you want to make a change divorce from the tag, like I've said a million times now

is that anything like how Anita Sarekeesian made up threats made against her?

[Tahar Joblis]

There's a point system here? Why wasn't I informed?

And yeah, it is a business issue. feminists and and SJWs make their money by turning it into a gender issue, and the gamers aren't letting that happen.

It's because the tag is tainted with the progenitors of the movement. Which is obviously true. They went around making threats to women and men who disagreed with them.

Are you sure?

I'm very dubious that most of the purported threats:

(A) Are, in fact, credible threats; see here. Sarkeesian et al have a long history of representing things that aren't even threats at all (like "I hope you kill yourself") as if they are credible threats.
... and I also doubt that...
(B) The relatively few exceptions are, in fact, from the people who started the use of the #gamergate tag.
... This is because ...
(C) They are probably from trolls, feminists, pro-feminists, or feminist/pro-feminist trolls. Much like the Emma Watson nude photo leak threat.

EDIT: Now, I do have something rather more important to add as a response to this argument.

This is an argument by association (i.e., a form of ad hominem). Guess what? There are horrible people associated with your side of this loud public argument.. With, for that matter, feminism in general, with feminism as a movement not really doing much to dissociate itself from misandrist nutjobs. (Unlike, say, Zoe Quinn's ex, who has vocally disapproved of some of the more vociferous reactions that could be described as being in "support" of him.) It's very easy to point out that the "wizardchan" community got blasted with threats and harassment in support of Zoe Quinn, as a very pointed example.

Be careful with where you're leading your arguments; argument by association is a very broad brush, and one that could very easily splatter you.

[Tahar Joblis]

Interesting, also, that she's bringing up Quinn and Sarkeesian... You know, when this isn't about Quinn and Sarkeesian.

At what point, exactly, is this not about Quinn and Sarkeesian?

This entire episode was started with what amounted to an expose of Quinn's misbehavior. The movements on both sides are driven by the politicization of gaming, and particularly the politicization of feminists attacking mainstream gaming... and about 90% of the public discussion is concerned with the two following propositions:

• Sarkeesian, Quinn, etc are oppressed women fighting against patriarchy in gaming & facing violent suppression of their views.
• Sarkeesian, Quinn, etc are scam artists getting by in life as professional victims using the feminist movement as a shield, and causing a lot of collateral harm along the way.

[Page]

It's very easy to point out that the "wizardchan" community got blasted with threats and harassment in support of Zoe Quinn, as a very pointed example.

Sorry for the friends of Elliot Rodger.

[Gravlen]

Interesting, also, that she's bringing up Quinn and Sarkeesian... You know, when this isn't about Quinn and Sarkeesian.

At what point, exactly, is this not about Quinn and Sarkeesian?

You'll have to ask the so-called GamerGaters about that. They are the ones claiming it's got nothing to do with either one.

[Tahar Joblis]

It's very easy to point out that the "wizardchan" community got blasted with threats and harassment in support of Zoe Quinn, as a very pointed example.

Sorry for the friends of Elliot Rodger.

Elliot Rodger wasn't involved with Wizardchan. There was a rumor to that effect flying around the feminist community back a few months ago, but like most feminist rumors about Elliot Rodger... or, for that matter, Wizardchan... it turned out to be inaccurate.

Though... even Elliot Rodger, prior to planning to commit crime, ought not to have been harassed on the internet. It's quite possibly because it's acceptable to bully and harass adult male virgins that he ended up killing a bunch of people. (Possibly not, he had other issues.)

A bunch of depressed men on a "men-only" forum were subjected to a campaign of threats and harassment because Zoe Quinn claimed (probably entirely falsely) to have been harassed by someone from that forum. Welcome to being associated with people who issue death threats over the internet.

At what point, exactly, is this not about Quinn and Sarkeesian?

You'll have to ask the so-called GamerGaters about that. They are the ones claiming it's got nothing to do with either one.

You're the one claiming that GamerGate was orchestrated and organized by a group of key leaders. I don't even know who you're referring to, so I can't ask them. You, of course, having actual knowledge of what these leaders are and what they're saying, can surely quote them to back up your claims that this has nothing to do with Quinn / Sarkeesian / etc.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's because the tag is tainted with the progenitors of the movement. Which is obviously true. They went around making threats to women and men who disagreed with them.

Are you sure?

I'm very dubious that most of the purported threats:

(A) Are, in fact, credible threats; see here. Sarkeesian et al have a long history of representing things that aren't even threats at all (like "I hope you kill yourself") as if they are credible threats.
... and I also doubt that...
(B) The relatively few exceptions are, in fact, from the people who started the use of the #gamergate tag.
... This is because ...
(C) They are probably from trolls, feminists, pro-feminists, or feminist/pro-feminist trolls. Much like the Emma Watson nude photo leak threat.

EDIT: Now, I do have something rather more important to add as a response to this argument.

This is an argument by association (i.e., a form of ad hominem). Guess what? There are horrible people associated with your side of this loud public argument.. With, for that matter, feminism in general, with feminism as a movement not really doing much to dissociate itself from misandrist nutjobs. (Unlike, say, Zoe Quinn's ex, who has vocally disapproved of some of the more vociferous reactions that could be described as being in "support" of him.) It's very easy to point out that the "wizardchan" community got blasted with threats and harassment in support of Zoe Quinn, as a very pointed example.

Be careful with where you're leading your arguments; argument by association is a very broad brush, and one that could very easily splatter you.

Good thing I'm not making this a feminist issue now am I?

My point is: the GamerGate tag is tainted with a bad reputation and this isn't so much about a gender issue as much as it is a business issue.

My original point is: if you're going to make this a gender issue go ahead. If you're going to use stupid and controversial labels, go ahead. But don't expect me to look at you with any decorum if you do.