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Gay Marriage Legal in North Carolina!

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Avenio
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Postby Avenio » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:22 pm

Draica wrote:I'm aware that the crusaders were no friends of the Byzantines.


Who said anything about the crusaders?

Draica wrote:The Muslims had more than a capable military force that would have crushed any Christian rebellions, even though the first caliph were plauged by more problems than the fear of the Christians uprising.


The Rashidun Caliphate had a relatively small army when compared to the Byzantines and Sassanids. They conquered both, after all, due to a case of historical good luck - both empires were exhausted from warring with each other and beset by internal strife, and were easily taken in comparatively few battles.

Draica wrote:It doesn't change the fact that they invaded Europe, that they took Christian lands over, that they invaded Jerusalem and killed thousands while doing so(yes, the crusaders were no better as they also killed thousands in the multiple attempts to re-take Jerusalem,). They were not nice people. They were radicals who had immense power and immense sway and used that to their advantage against the European and non-muslim cultures in their scope.


The Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates (ie the dynasties that did the conquering) had comparatively little interest in religious persecution - both for practical reasons (such things usually incited more rebellions than they did convert people and if everyone converted to Islam, they'd lose quite a hefty chunk of their tax revenues) and ideological ones. The Caliphate, as an institution, wasn't meant to convert the whole world to Islam, it was meant to bring the world under the control of the Viceroy of God on Earth (a translation of the title 'Caliph', and, incidentally, not that far removed from the Byzantine concept of the position of emperor) and thereby back into the hands of God. Christians and Jews in particular were considered to already be following God's word, and were thus to be a protected class, exempt from military service and allowed to practice as they wished.

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Socialist Abania
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Postby Socialist Abania » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:22 pm

Organized States wrote:
Kargintina wrote:A Southern State gone Demi? I'm actually quite shocked.

They used to all be Democratic, you know.

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Othelos
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Postby Othelos » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:22 pm

Organized States wrote:
Kargintina wrote:A Southern State gone Demi? I'm actually quite shocked.

They used to all be Democratic, you know.

yeah that was when the democrats were the conservatives.
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:23 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Ifreann wrote:And in this context I would have thought it obvious that we are talking about the legal institution of marriage. What with all the talk of court decisions and judges and attorneys and it saying "Legal" in the title.


Yeah, weird how the anti-equality crowd keeps arguing against a point that nobody is making.

"Gay marriage shouldn't be legal, since it goes against my beliefs."

"Okay, but it should be legal because your religious beliefs don't dictate law."

"My religion doesn't allow it."

"Mine does, and people who don't have a religion seem to be okay with it for the most part."

"YOU'RE TRYING TO REDEFINE MARRIAGE AND FORCE MY CHURCH TO MARRY TWO PEOPLE OF THE SAME SEX."

"No, we're...."

"I WILL STAND UP FOR MY GOD AND MY BELIEFS!"

"Nobody's trying to..."

"JESUS IS A FRIEND OF MINE, JESUS IS MY FRIEND..."

"Right. I'll be over here at this awesome gay marriage reception...."


I agree that making a legal marriage between one man and one woman causes a problem because there are polygamists and gays that will disagree and it is a law based on religious views (as many US laws are). My stance of getting the govt. out of marriage solves this problem because all marriages would be treated equal. In the eyes of the govt. marrying a man will be the same as marrying a goat or a bridge. The govt. wouldn't care.

Personally, I believe marriage should be between a man and a woman but it is unfair for me to force this view on others by using laws. In this way I have changed my stance.
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Socialist Abania
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Postby Socialist Abania » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:23 pm

Archeuland and Baughistan wrote:
Socialist Abania wrote:I'd rather not.
That would signify I have respect for you.


How's that?

I don't need to talk about it, nor do I wish to talk about it here.

Othelos wrote:
Organized States wrote:They used to all be Democratic, you know.

yeah that was when the democrats were the conservatives.


Socialist Abania wrote:
Organized States wrote:They used to all be Democratic, you know.

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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:24 pm

Othelos wrote:
Organized States wrote:They used to all be Democratic, you know.

yeah that was when the democrats were the conservatives.


Well, it really was a certain strain of the Democrats. Specifically, Southern Democrats.
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Othelos
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Postby Othelos » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:24 pm

Socialist Abania wrote:
Archeuland and Baughistan wrote:
How's that?

I don't need to talk about it, nor do I wish to talk about it here.

Othelos wrote:yeah that was when the democrats were the conservatives.


Socialist Abania wrote:
"All Democratic"

the south used to vote all democratic. seriously. that was back when the Democrats were the conservatives in the south.
Last edited by Othelos on Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:26 pm

Othelos wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:
I didn't adapt this viewpoint until 2010-2011 when I started adapting more libertarian viewpoints. It had nothing to do with gay marriage, it had to do with a change in my political beliefs. Actually, my views towards gays have also become more tolerant over the years. I used to also think they should be sent to re-education camps but now I know this is too much govt. control and leads down a dangerous slippery slope.

It is better to reduce govt. involvement in many things (but at a gradual pace). This is one area that would be safe to get the govt. out of.

how? what's wrong with the government ensuring that people have the 1,100 rights & benefits that comes along with civil marriage?


It provides an unfair advantage for married people right? Two unmarried siblings might also want the same rights but they don't want to marry each other (even if this was legal). Isn't this a form of inequality?

Why not simplify procedures so unmarried people can get these rights instead?
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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:26 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Othelos wrote:yeah that was when the democrats were the conservatives.


Well, it really was a certain strain of the Democrats. Specifically, Southern Democrats.


Dixiecrats. They were a blight on the party for years. Interestingly enough, their spiritual descendants are now causing havoc in the GOP, and screwing up what should be a cakewalk in the midterms.

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Othelos
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Postby Othelos » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:26 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Othelos wrote:yeah that was when the democrats were the conservatives.


Well, it really was a certain strain of the Democrats. Specifically, Southern Democrats.

yeah sorry, my brain is slowly leaking some of the American history I learned in junior year of high school. haha
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Arumdaum
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:27 pm

I don't think gay marriage is really that much of a controversial issue in America anymore. It'll be legal in all the states by 2030, and maybe have a SCOTUS ruling that prohibiting it is unconstitutional by then.
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Cyrisnia
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Postby Cyrisnia » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:28 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:
Well, it really was a certain strain of the Democrats. Specifically, Southern Democrats.


Dixiecrats. They were a blight on the party for years. Interestingly enough, their spiritual descendants are now causing havoc in the GOP, and screwing up what should be a cakewalk in the midterms.

I vote we should have a Southern only party for laughing at.
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:28 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:
Well, it really was a certain strain of the Democrats. Specifically, Southern Democrats.


Dixiecrats. They were a blight on the party for years. Interestingly enough, their spiritual descendants are now causing havoc in the GOP, and screwing up what should be a cakewalk in the midterms.


They essentially became the Religious Right of the modern day. And a lot of the Religious Right are also Neocons.
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Kargintina
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Postby Kargintina » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:29 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Dixiecrats. They were a blight on the party for years. Interestingly enough, their spiritual descendants are now causing havoc in the GOP, and screwing up what should be a cakewalk in the midterms.


They essentially became the Religious Right of the modern day. And a lot of the Religious Right are also Neocons.

Yeah...

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Othelos
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Postby Othelos » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:29 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Othelos wrote:how? what's wrong with the government ensuring that people have the 1,100 rights & benefits that comes along with civil marriage?


It provides an unfair advantage for married people right? Two unmarried siblings might also want the same rights but they don't want to marry each other (even if this was legal). Isn't this a form of inequality?

Why not simplify procedures so unmarried people can get these rights instead?

No, the benefits & rights are for things like hospital visits, tax filing and inheritance.

It just simplifies the process so that instead of signing a crapload of forms, the couple just gets a single form - the marriage certificate.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:31 pm

Draica wrote:
Avenio wrote:
The Christians of the Middle East during the time of the invasion of the Rashidun Caliphate were no friends of the Byzantines. They were predominantly non-Greek, non-Chalcedonian Christians who had been consistently persecuted by the Chalcedonian imperial authorities for centuries. The first caliphs, in contrast, were completely willing to leave them alone to practice their religion as they wished so long as they paid their taxes and didn't cause trouble. You ever wonder why there weren't any serious revolts against Muslim rule in places like the Levant and Egypt during the first few centuries of the caliphate, even though the Christians were by far the dominant religious group? That's why.


I'm aware that the crusaders were no friends of the Byzantines. Infact, the Crusaders trampled all over the Byzantines lands and eventually established Crusader states in the heart of the Empire and in outlying pieces of it which were centered near Jerusalem. I did not need to know this again. And no, I do not wonder. The Muslims had more than a capable military force that would have crushed any Christian rebellions, even though the first caliph were plauged by more problems than the fear of the Christians uprising.

It doesn't change the fact that they invaded Europe, that they took Christian lands over, that they invaded Jerusalem and killed thousands while doing so(yes, the crusaders were no better as they also killed thousands in the multiple attempts to re-take Jerusalem,). They were not nice people. They were radicals who had immense power and immense sway and used that to their advantage against the European and non-muslim cultures in their scope.

Thread's not about the Crusades, bro. And isn't your shift over?


Freiheit Reich wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Most people understand that by "marriage" we are referring to the legal institution. One would think it was obvious, but apparently not.


The Polygamists in Utah only have one legally recognized marriage but in the eyes of God they have several wives. For them, it is likely God's views matter more than man's.

I'm not sure why you think this is an important thing to point out, but I expect you're right.

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Archeuland and Baughistan
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Postby Archeuland and Baughistan » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:32 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:
Well, it really was a certain strain of the Democrats. Specifically, Southern Democrats.


Dixiecrats. They were a blight on the party for years. Interestingly enough, their spiritual descendants are now causing havoc in the GOP, and screwing up what should be a cakewalk in the midterms.


No no, now. The Democrats can't just say that it was a certain sect who were racist buffoons, it was the party as a whole at one point who was all down for that slavery stuff. Republicans were in the north and Democrats were in the south.

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Last edited by Archeuland and Baughistan on Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Freiheit Reich
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Postby Freiheit Reich » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:33 pm

Othelos wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:
It provides an unfair advantage for married people right? Two unmarried siblings might also want the same rights but they don't want to marry each other (even if this was legal). Isn't this a form of inequality?

Why not simplify procedures so unmarried people can get these rights instead?

No, the benefits & rights are for things like hospital visits, tax filing and inheritance.

It just simplifies the process so that instead of signing a crapload of forms, the couple just gets a single form - the marriage certificate.


Couldn't the govt. create such a form and call it something else? Why do we only "simplify" these processes for married people. Why can't unmarried people get such a form? This would not be that hard. Create a form and require a notary to stamp it and make the fee reasonable. Of course, lawyers would hate the idea of simplifying things and making them affordable.

Marriage should be about people that love each other and want to stay together. Not just a formality so we can simplify legal procedures.
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Inzijard
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Postby Inzijard » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:35 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Othelos wrote:No, the benefits & rights are for things like hospital visits, tax filing and inheritance.

It just simplifies the process so that instead of signing a crapload of forms, the couple just gets a single form - the marriage certificate.


Couldn't the govt. create such a form and call it something else? Why do we only "simplify" these processes for married people. Why can't unmarried people get such a form? This would not be that hard. Create a form and require a notary to stamp it and make the fee reasonable. Of course, lawyers would hate the idea of simplifying things and making them affordable.

Marriage should be about people that love each other and want to stay together. Not just a formality so we can simplify legal procedures.

If only. :unsure:
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:35 pm

Othelos wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:
It provides an unfair advantage for married people right? Two unmarried siblings might also want the same rights but they don't want to marry each other (even if this was legal). Isn't this a form of inequality?

Why not simplify procedures so unmarried people can get these rights instead?

No, the benefits & rights are for things like hospital visits, tax filing and inheritance.

It just simplifies the process so that instead of signing a crapload of forms, the couple just gets a single form - the marriage certificate.


...which gives married people extra rights over single people. Which is dumb. The state is granting privileges to those who get married, so they have more kids, which could have been started so that conservative leaders could "strengthen the country" and other bullshit nationalist things like that.
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Arumdaum
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:35 pm

Organized States wrote:
Kargintina wrote:A Southern State gone Demi? I'm actually quite shocked.

They used to all be Democratic, you know.

sounds pretty solid
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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:37 pm

Archeuland and Baughistan wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Dixiecrats. They were a blight on the party for years. Interestingly enough, their spiritual descendants are now causing havoc in the GOP, and screwing up what should be a cakewalk in the midterms.


No no, now. The Democrats can't just say that it was a certain sect who were racist buffoons, it was the party as a whole at one point who was all down for that slavery stuff. Republicans were in the north and Democrats were in the south.

Image


You're going back a century and a half to make your argument? Sorry, I was thinking only in terms of the last 70 years or so. Yes, I will accept that Democrats were largely a racist party at the time. I will also accept that this is about as relevant a point regarding modern politics as the Pony Express is regarding modern communications, or stovepipe hats are regarding modern men's fashion.

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Organized States
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Postby Organized States » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:37 pm

Arumdaum wrote:
Organized States wrote:They used to all be Democratic, you know.

sounds pretty solid

Up until 1964 and the signing of the Civil Rights Act, they voted democratic.
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Othelos
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Postby Othelos » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:37 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Othelos wrote:No, the benefits & rights are for things like hospital visits, tax filing and inheritance.

It just simplifies the process so that instead of signing a crapload of forms, the couple just gets a single form - the marriage certificate.


Couldn't the govt. create such a form and call it something else? Why do we only "simplify" these processes for married people. Why can't unmarried people get such a form? This would not be that hard. Create a form and require a notary to stamp it and make the fee reasonable. Of course, lawyers would hate the idea of simplifying things and making them affordable.

Marriage should be about people that love each other and want to stay together. Not just a formality so we can simplify legal procedures.

Because some of those rights are specifically for married couples. If I signed a form with my friend, instead of my wife, my friend would get all the rights that I would want my wife to, for example. Friends can get it, but that's just not what people choose to do lol.

And yeah, marriage is more than just about a form, but the specific institution of civil marriage is just about legal matters.
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Postby Arumdaum » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:38 pm

Organized States wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:sounds pretty solid

Up until 1964 and the signing of the Civil Rights Act, they voted democratic.

yup
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