Is God selfish and evil?

[Freiheit Reich]

God is love but if you cross him, God will strike you hard. He wants what is best for his children but he also wants you to remember, he is the boss and you must listen to him or face the consequences.

Utter nonsense.

However, I don't believe God will be cruel enough to send you to Hell for eternity. I believe he will make you face a harsh punishment after death if you were wrong but afterwards, you will have the opportunity to repent and be forgiven. God is harsh but he is forgiving as well.

Nonsense again. God doesn't punish. We punish. God walks through the garden calling our names until we come out of hiding and, in shame, explain what happened while trying to hide our embarrassment.

He created natural disasters and diseases. This is punishment. After your Earthly death, he will punish you for your sins if needed.

[Railana]

The Bible tells us that Satan convinced Eve to take the bite out of the forbidden fruit. What we are told, however is that Satan had evil intentions. Is it possible that Satan was in fact the Prometheus of humanity, bringing us the knowledge to rebel against our god and lead more independent lives?

I think you're making a category mistake here. Under the Judeo-Christian conception of God, God is the creator of morality and it is in God's nature to act morally. Therefore, calling God immoral (i.e. "selfish" or "evil", which are moral terms) makes no sense.

[The Archregimancy]

"God can either do nothing to stop evil, or he doesn't care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely."

or, to quote Epícuros of Athens (341–270 BCE):
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

I went into this thread specifically because I knew someone would bring up this misattribution given the thread title.

Epicurus almost certainly said no such thing. The so-called "Epicurean paradox" is, in its original form, an early Christian satire of Epicureanism.

I've lost count of the number of times I've had to repeat this, but...

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

~ Epicurus

I wish people who aren't nearly as clever as they think they are would stop misattributing this quote.

It almost certainly wasn't written by Epicurus. The quote is generally believed to have originated as a satirical argument by the Christian apologist Lactantius in his De Ira Dei, written in c.300 AD - some 650 years after Epicurus' death - and designed to critique a general later classical Epicurean position rather than a specific argument by Epicurus himself.

The more modern version - Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? - can be found in David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion.

If we must quote the 'Epicurean Paradox', can we please either correctly attribute it as an early 4th century Christian apologetic satire designed to criticise Epicureanism if using the original, or to David Hume if using the more modern version.

[Distruzio]

Utter nonsense.



Nonsense again. God doesn't punish. We punish. God walks through the garden calling our names until we come out of hiding and, in shame, explain what happened while trying to hide our embarrassment.

He created natural disasters and diseases. This is punishment. After your Earthly death, he will punish you for your sins if needed.

No. He created Creation. The existence of "natural disasters and diseases" has nothing to do with Him or His existence. They serve vital purposes for the continuity of life on Earth. Our subjective valuation of these things, also, has nothing to do with God or His existence.

Shit happens. God is. The two are not related. To "happen" is to have a beginning and an end. God has neither. Ergo, God is not a part of shit happening.

[Lydenburg]

Human beings are selfish and evil. Let's worry about fixing ourselves first before bothering with God.

[Distruzio]

Human beings are selfish and evil. Let's worry about fixing ourselves first before bothering with God.

But then who would we blame?

[Sun Wukong]

Human beings are selfish and evil. Let's worry about fixing ourselves first before bothering with God.

Why not both?

[-Ebola-]

Human beings are selfish and evil. Let's worry about fixing ourselves first before bothering with God.

That argument could be applied to a lot more than God. Why don't you worry about fixing yourselves before fixing Ebola or AIDS or a shark that's biting your arm off?

[Freiheit Reich]

He created natural disasters and diseases. This is punishment. After your Earthly death, he will punish you for your sins if needed.

No. He created Creation. The existence of "natural disasters and diseases" has nothing to do with Him or His existence. They serve vital purposes for the continuity of life on Earth. Our subjective valuation of these things, also, has nothing to do with God or His existence.

Shit happens. God is. The two are not related. To "happen" is to have a beginning and an end. God has neither. Ergo, God is not a part of shit happening.

So you don't believe he can stop natural disasters or diseases? Isn't he all powerful?

My belief is that he is all powerful. He could create weather patterns that didn't kill people (as he has done in some regions of the earth). We need rain but do we need typhoons and monsoons with their all or nothing rain patterns? He can also ensure people die without suffering cruel and painful diseases first (which often kill children and young adults as well).

You seem to think he can't control these things which means you don't believe him to be all-powerful. Yes, he wants to give people free will (a reason he doesn't stop murders from happening) but people have no power over natural disasters and sometimes lack power to control diseases. I believe natural disasters and diseases were created by God as a way to give people challenges to overcome, they are tests. Will we still love God when our child dies of Smallpox or our sister dies in a typhoon? God is testing our love and our loyalty.

[Distruzio]

No. He created Creation. The existence of "natural disasters and diseases" has nothing to do with Him or His existence. They serve vital purposes for the continuity of life on Earth. Our subjective valuation of these things, also, has nothing to do with God or His existence.

Shit happens. God is. The two are not related. To "happen" is to have a beginning and an end. God has neither. Ergo, God is not a part of shit happening.

So you don't believe he can stop natural disasters or diseases? Isn't he all powerful?

No. That's not what I believe. I'm not talking about the nature of God.

My belief is that he is all powerful. He could create weather patterns that didn't kill people (as he has done in some regions of the earth). We need rain but do we need typhoons and monsoons with their all or nothing rain patterns?

Yes.

You seem to think he can't control these things which means you don't believe him to be all-powerful.

You're confusing yourself. I said nothing about His nature. I spoke, specifically, about the nature of Creation.

Yes, he wants to give people free will (a reason he doesn't stop murders from happening) but people have no power over natural disasters and sometimes lack power to control diseases. I believe natural disasters and diseases were created by God as a way to give people challenges to overcome, they are tests. Will we still love God when our child dies of Smallpox or our sister dies in a typhoon? God is testing our love and our loyalty.

Nonsense. He doesn't test us. We test us. He chooses to trust that we'll come when He calls - even if that takes a while.

[Freiheit Reich]

So you don't believe he can stop natural disasters or diseases? Isn't he all powerful?

No. That's not what I believe. I'm not talking about the nature of God.

My belief is that he is all powerful. He could create weather patterns that didn't kill people (as he has done in some regions of the earth). We need rain but do we need typhoons and monsoons with their all or nothing rain patterns?

Yes.

You seem to think he can't control these things which means you don't believe him to be all-powerful.

You're confusing yourself. I said nothing about His nature. I spoke, specifically, about the nature of Creation.

Yes, he wants to give people free will (a reason he doesn't stop murders from happening) but people have no power over natural disasters and sometimes lack power to control diseases. I believe natural disasters and diseases were created by God as a way to give people challenges to overcome, they are tests. Will we still love God when our child dies of Smallpox or our sister dies in a typhoon? God is testing our love and our loyalty.

Nonsense. He doesn't test us. We test us. He chooses to trust that we'll come when He calls - even if that takes a while.

Why do we need typhoons or monsoons or deadly earthquakes for that matter? Why can't we have a stable amount of rain? For that matter, why does God punish certain parts of the Earth with droughts (ex. the Sahara Desert)? If they are needed, could God have included a warning signal that will come 3 days before a typhoon (he is God, he can do anything)?

God and the Devil tested Job.

[Herskerstad]

I do wonder how God himself would think going to threads like these. Human rationale against divine providence, short-spanned ignorance against omnipresence, God creating one in his own image against people creating God in their own, endless strawmanning often with mimimal investment into the topic, and of course, the great choice. Either to join God who's set apart from sin, by the one sacrefice capable of doing such, or going with the other choice which leads to a realm without God, and where no doubt, much wailing and gnashing of teeth will ensure.

Christianity was not made to accomodate peoples own desires, and while this creates issues of priorities in an ever more transhumanistic society, it still does not factor truly in with people who value the eternal concept more than their earthly existance, and while things on this earth can truly get shitty even for the most selfless of mankind and often does, the concept that God will, on the grounds where we can choose if we want to love him or go with something else, ensure some kind of predestination for those not born with a kind heart, or some kind of omni-spanning shield for those who are not wicked, things which would certainly play a part on ones own free choice and the fact that even bad people can repent and start the long road to becoming virtious, is nothing short of mankind wanting to control their eternal destinies through their own lens, the very concept of religious delusion, is a concept to be rejected based on both what we can tell for certain, and the sillyness of the argument itself.

There is nothing keeping you, if you desire it, to reject God. At the same time, God is under no obligation to fufill your desires, affirm your convictions or that of anyone else. At the end, we will either be seperated eternally from sin, or reap the fruits of it. Expect extreme bitterness if you do the latter.

[Inzijard]

I do wonder how God himself would think going to threads like these. Human rationale against divine providence, short-spanned ignorance against omnipresence, God creating one in his own image against people creating God in their own, endless strawmanning often with mimimal investment into the topic, and of course, the great choice. Either to join God who's set apart from sin, by the one sacrefice capable of doing such, or going with the other choice which leads to a realm without God, and where no doubt, much wailing and gnashing of teeth will ensure.

Christianity was not made to accomodate peoples own desires, and while this creates issues of priorities in an ever more transhumanistic society, it still does not factor truly in with people who value the eternal concept more than their earthly existance, and while things on this earth can truly get shitty even for the most selfless of mankind and often does, the concept that God will, on the grounds where we can choose if we want to love him or go with something else, ensure some kind of predestination for those not born with a kind heart, or some kind of omni-spanning shield for those who are not wicked, things which would certainly play a part on ones own free choice and the fact that even bad people can repent and start the long road to becoming virtious, is nothing short of mankind wanting to control their eternal destinies through their own lens, the very concept of religious delusion, is a concept to be rejected based on both what we can tell for certain, and the sillyness of the argument itself.

There is nothing keeping you, if you desire it, to reject God. At the same time, God is under no obligation to fufill your desires, affirm your convictions or that of anyone else. At the end, we will either be seperated eternally from sin, or reap the fruits of it. Expect extreme bitterness if you do the latter.

Hey, none of us chose to be here. If he's going to stick us here he should probably be accommodating, or at least not be surprised by our indignation towards him.

[Olthar]

I believe most surveys typically show that 80-90% of Christians have not, in fact, read their own book, a number which does not surprise me.

God is love but if you cross him, God will strike you hard. He wants what is best for his children but he also wants you to remember, he is the boss and you must listen to him or face the consequences.

However, I don't believe God will be cruel enough to send you to Hell for eternity. I believe he will make you face a harsh punishment after death if you were wrong but afterwards, you will have the opportunity to repent and be forgiven. God is harsh but he is forgiving as well.

Truly, nothing says forgiveness like punishment. *nods*

[Exalted Draconia]

How are we to know if God is good if he invented this literary work to discredit Lucifer?

Well, most things held as evil today (murdering, thieving, lying, etc.) can be traced back to the Ten Commandments. Later nations, such as Babylon, took these to be their rules as well, setting the standard for all civilizations.

You are aware that the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi and the Epic of Gilgamesh are older than the Bible, including the Ten Commandments, right?

[Sun Wukong]

Well that would explain why he doesn't want us to eat shell... oh. Never mind.

[Freiheit Reich]

God is love but if you cross him, God will strike you hard. He wants what is best for his children but he also wants you to remember, he is the boss and you must listen to him or face the consequences.

However, I don't believe God will be cruel enough to send you to Hell for eternity. I believe he will make you face a harsh punishment after death if you were wrong but afterwards, you will have the opportunity to repent and be forgiven. God is harsh but he is forgiving as well.

Truly, nothing says forgiveness like punishment. *nods*

Punishment first and then forgiveness. Parents do it to their children all the time. Hit the kid because he lied and then take him out for ice cream the next day. God might roast your soul for awhile and then bring you to the Kingdom of Heaven after he feels you have learned your lesson and received a proper punishment.

[Sun Wukong]

Truly, nothing says forgiveness like punishment. *nods*

Punishment first and then forgiveness. Parents do it to their children all the time. Hit the kid because he lied and then take him out for ice cream the next day. God might roast your soul for awhile and then bring you to the Kingdom of Heaven after he feels you have learned your lesson and received a proper punishment.

The only lesson punishment like that gives is "I'm right, because I have the capacity to make you suffer." It is the mentality of the bully, and the opposite of encouraging a mature morality.

[Freiheit Reich]

Punishment first and then forgiveness. Parents do it to their children all the time. Hit the kid because he lied and then take him out for ice cream the next day. God might roast your soul for awhile and then bring you to the Kingdom of Heaven after he feels you have learned your lesson and received a proper punishment.

The only lesson punishment like that gives is "I'm right, because I have the capacity to make you suffer." It is the mentality of the bully, and the opposite of encouraging a mature morality.

Think of God like this man. A tough father that cares about his children but always wants control, yes he may bully a bit but in the end he does care:

[Olthar]

Truly, nothing says forgiveness like punishment. *nods*

Punishment first and then forgiveness. Parents do it to their children all the time. Hit the kid because he lied and then take him out for ice cream the next day. God might roast your soul for awhile and then bring you to the Kingdom of Heaven after he feels you have learned your lesson and received a proper punishment.

It's still an oxymoron.

[Freydell]

Yeah bye!

A father that murders his unruly children is not a just or "tough love" kind of father. He is a murderer. Who belongs in prison. For life.

He feels he can murder his children because he created the children. Yes, in our eyes it sounds crazy but God believes the ends justify the means. Look at the Great Flood as an example. He killed most of the world's population (to include animals as well as people) to cleanse the Earth. He also allowed Job to be hurt and let the Devil kill off Job's family and livestock to prove to the Devil that people can love God even if they face hardships in life. Maybe this is harsh but we must love God anyways because he created us and he also does good things for us as well.

He brings the sun and the rain, he brings us food and water, he is the life giver as well as the life taker.

Oh where do I begin.

1.What you said is basically admitting he is an evil, arrogant, egomaniac of a prick.
2. The Sun was formed about 4.57 billion years ago from the collapse of part of a giant molecular cloud that consisted mostly of hydrogen and helium and that probably gave birth to many other stars.
3.Water condenses in the air in tiny droplets about 1/100 of a millimeter in diameter, so small they remain aloft as clouds. Usually for rain drops to form there must also be small solid particles suspended in the air. If there air, the water droplets collect around these particles, growing larger and larger. When they are too heavy to remain in the sky, they fall back to earth as rain.
4.Food comes from any number of places but God is not behind any of it.
5.Your parents having sex is the life giver.

[Distruzio]

No. That's not what I believe. I'm not talking about the nature of God.



Yes.



You're confusing yourself. I said nothing about His nature. I spoke, specifically, about the nature of Creation.



Nonsense. He doesn't test us. We test us. He chooses to trust that we'll come when He calls - even if that takes a while.

Why do we need typhoons or monsoons or deadly earthquakes for that matter?

Despite their devastating effects, tropical storms are also beneficial, by potentially bringing rain to dry areas and moving heat from the tropics poleward. This helps to maintain the global heat balance by moving warm, moist tropical air to the mid-latitudes and polar regions. Were it not for the movement of heat poleward the tropical regions would be unbearably hot and inhospital to human life and development.

Hurricanes in the eastern north Pacific supply moisture to the Southwestern United States and parts of Mexico, mitigating adverse effects from droughts and ameliorating the dangers of desert heat. Moreover, Japan receives over half of its rainfall from typhoons.

Why can't we have a stable amount of rain?

Because then life would suffer and perish.

For that matter, why does God punish certain parts of the Earth with droughts (ex. the Sahara Desert)? If they are needed, could God have included a warning signal that will come 3 days before a typhoon (he is God, he can do anything)?

Deserts serve as a heat sink in which excess heat is collected and restricted so as to provide other areas of the world a more appropriate overall temperature more conducive to life.

God and the Devil tested Job.

Quaint take on the story but misses the point. Job teaches us that we must endure life’s adversities patiently and with trust in God. It does not tell us that God will punish or test us. It tells us that punishments are subjectively valued and tests are only tests in that they challenge our faith. God is the constant. Tests and punishments are the variables.

[Freydell]

Utter nonsense.



Nonsense again. God doesn't punish. We punish. God walks through the garden calling our names until we come out of hiding and, in shame, explain what happened while trying to hide our embarrassment.

He created natural disasters and diseases. This is punishment. After your Earthly death, he will punish you for your sins if needed.

Really Again?!
1.Natural disasters are natural occurrences made by the Earth.
2.Diseases are microscopic organisms, such as the rhinovirus or staphylococcus, which mutate to new situations and organism in order to spread and reproduce or something similar to that.
3.God's the one who deserves to be punished as well for all the atrocities he's committed. Anybody have a God-Buster Cannon Sword?

[Distruzio]

3.God's the one who deserves to be punished as well for all the atrocities he's committed. Anybody have a God-Buster Cannon Sword?

What atrocities did God commit?

[United States Kingdom]

Utter nonsense.



Nonsense again. God doesn't punish. We punish. God walks through the garden calling our names until we come out of hiding and, in shame, explain what happened while trying to hide our embarrassment.

He created natural disasters and diseases. This is punishment. After your Earthly death, he will punish you for your sins if needed.

Yes. I deserved getting Malaria because I was a bad child.