18 yr old shoots at off-duty St. Louis cop, gets killed

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

EDIT: Meaning that, if whites were to get the same amount of "attention" from the police, they'd get killed just as often.

Let's use an example from a few days ago in Washington DC. Two police officers respond to a report of a burglary in an upscale neighbourhood. On the way, they encounter a black man walking along the street carrying two bags. They pull over and arrest him in preparation for a search. One of the people living in the houses adjacent, however - one Jody Westby, a white lawyer - sees the incident and marches out of her house with a housekeeper following behind recording events. She confronts the officers and takes control of the situation very quickly, forcing them to admit that not only were they in the wrong neighbourhood, but that 64-year-old Dennis Stucky was a longtime employee of that particular neighbourhood, acting as a maintenance person. She then walks over to Stucky, grabs him by the hand and pulls him away from the officers, insisting to them that he is innocent of any crime, that she's an attorney and that she intends to report this. The officers let her pull him away from them, and the confrontation ends with them leaving. There is a video of the entire incident available.

Now honestly, do you think that if Westby had been an African-American - whether female or male - and/or been not recording the confrontation, they would have let him/her grab a potential suspect and take over the situation like that?

I'm not defending trigger happy cops. What I am suggesting is that blacks need to learn to manage their anger (anger exacerbated undoubtedly by getting profiled) or whatever else makes them act "funny" in the eyes of cops before police in the US get some responsibility and accountability knocked into them. It's just the current state of affairs, and before it gets any better it is the best course of action and in the best interests of anyone interacting with police, unless they're content with becoming martyrs for the greater good of (eventually) speeding up this process. Attempting to protest abuse in the street is simply a bad idea for anyone in the US regardless of color and will continue to be so for a while most probably. Unless you genuinely fear for your life or have a good reason to believe they are about to do something very bad/serious , don't act up. If you feel you're innocent and/or being abused, be civil, adopt an attitude as passive as possible, and record the encounter as best you can, and sue/report them after.

[Williamson]

You can't really say for sure if the off duty officer was justified in the shooting or not yet. People assume things without hearing all the evidence.

I think it's pretty justified if the officer was fired at first.

if he was shot at sure that would be justified, we don't know that for sure though. So far it does look justified, but there could be evidence proofing otherwise. That why I'm going wait and see before I make my judgment on this.

[The Union of Tentacles and Grapes]

Let's use an example from a few days ago in Washington DC. Two police officers respond to a report of a burglary in an upscale neighbourhood. On the way, they encounter a black man walking along the street carrying two bags. They pull over and arrest him in preparation for a search. One of the people living in the houses adjacent, however - one Jody Westby, a white lawyer - sees the incident and marches out of her house with a housekeeper following behind recording events. She confronts the officers and takes control of the situation very quickly, forcing them to admit that not only were they in the wrong neighbourhood, but that 64-year-old Dennis Stucky was a longtime employee of that particular neighbourhood, acting as a maintenance person. She then walks over to Stucky, grabs him by the hand and pulls him away from the officers, insisting to them that he is innocent of any crime, that she's an attorney and that she intends to report this. The officers let her pull him away from them, and the confrontation ends with them leaving. There is a video of the entire incident available.

Now honestly, do you think that if Westby had been an African-American - whether female or male - and/or been not recording the confrontation, they would have let him/her grab a potential suspect and take over the situation like that?

I'm not defending trigger happy cops. What I am suggesting is that blacks need to learn to manage their anger (anger exacerbated undoubtedly by getting profiled) or whatever else makes them act "funny" in the eyes of cops before police in the US get some responsibility and accountability knocked into them. It's just the current state of affairs, and before it gets any better it is the best course of action and in the best interests of anyone interacting with police, unless they're content with becoming martyrs for the greater good of (eventually) speeding up this process. Attempting to protest abuse in the street is simply a bad idea for anyone in the US regardless of color and will continue to be so for a while most probably. Unless you genuinely fear for your life or have a good reason to believe they are about to do something very bad/serious , don't act up. If you feel you're innocent and/or being abused, be civil, adopt an attitude as passive as possible, and record the encounter as best you can, and sue/report them after.

Very telling that your solution to the problem of police violence is that everyone just submit and just stay as far away from cops as possible.

Now, I wonder if police patrols are often sent to black neighborhoods far out of line with the crime distribution within that juristiction....

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

You know if there's such a mistrust for police in america, why not just put camera's on the police uniform to be warn at all times? Easy way to verify this sort of thing. Harder to play the race card there then.

I know some country has done it.

This has also happened in the US to a limited degree, and I have been supporting this for a long time now.

Issue every cop with a body camera and make it as tamper proof as possible. Make it illegal for the cop to obstruct the camera and make it their duty to ensure it is properly functioning and recording at all times. Back up as much as possible. As technology advances and becomes more affordable and miniature-izable look into real-time backup (essentially live streaming) directly (or through the police car) to the police HQ. Cops will be held accountable for missing recordings etc. If "malfunctions" happen during reported incidents of abuse trust the victim not the cop.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I'm not defending trigger happy cops. What I am suggesting is that blacks need to learn to manage their anger (anger exacerbated undoubtedly by getting profiled) or whatever else makes them act "funny" in the eyes of cops before police in the US get some responsibility and accountability knocked into them. It's just the current state of affairs, and before it gets any better it is the best course of action and in the best interests of anyone interacting with police, unless they're content with becoming martyrs for the greater good of (eventually) speeding up this process. Attempting to protest abuse in the street is simply a bad idea for anyone in the US regardless of color and will continue to be so for a while most probably. Unless you genuinely fear for your life or have a good reason to believe they are about to do something very bad/serious , don't act up. If you feel you're innocent and/or being abused, be civil, adopt an attitude as passive as possible, and record the encounter as best you can, and sue/report them after.

Very telling that your solution to the problem of police violence is that everyone just submit and just stay as far away from cops as possible.

Now, I wonder if police patrols are often sent to black neighborhoods far out of line with the crime distribution within that juristiction....

*facepalm*

if that's what you made of my post, then trying to argue with you is useless.

[New Aerios]

Yes, cops do bad things, yes, the police in the US have a lot of serious issues and in quite a lot of cases behave like common criminals or worse. Yes, they have problems with racism. Yes, they have problems with brutality. Of course they do, they're the state's zookeepers, meant to keep the people down by whatever means necessary.

That doesn't matter here, because when someone starts shooting at you, you damn well shoot them back. But of course, we get the usual "das raciss" crowd protesting, just because the guy who got killed (because he opened fire first) was black. Yes, there are race issues in America, especially involving the police. But everyone has the same right to defend themselves, regardless of whether they're a cop or not, and defending yourself against a black guy who shoots at you is just as valid as defending yourself against a white guy who shoots at you.

[Avenio]

I'm not defending trigger happy cops. What I am suggesting is that blacks need to learn to manage their anger (anger exacerbated undoubtedly by getting profiled) or whatever else makes them act "funny" in the eyes of cops before police in the US get some responsibility and accountability knocked into them.

Oh come on. Did you see the way the lawyer acted towards the police officers? She was very visibly angry, and the officers involved didn't even reprimand her. Why do African-Americans have to be the submissive ones here? Why is it just people like Westby that can take charge and be angry at police officers?

It's just the current state of affairs, and before it gets any better it is the best course of action and in the best interests of anyone interacting with police, unless they're content with becoming martyrs for the greater good of (eventually) speeding up this process.

Screw that. Institutionalized authoritarianism has never been defeated by just sitting down and taking it.

Attempting to protest abuse in the street is simply a bad idea for anyone in the US regardless of color and will continue to be so for a while most probably.

And the only way to change that is to continue protesting.

Unless you genuinely fear for your life or have a good reason to believe they are about to do something very bad/serious , don't act up. If you feel you're innocent and/or being abused, be civil, adopt an attitude as passive as possible, and record the encounter as best you can, and sue/report them after.

And if that attitude had been taken to heart in the 50's and 60's, we'd still have Jim Crow laws.

[Gig em Aggies]

You know if there's such a mistrust for police in america, why not just put camera's on the police uniform to be warn at all times? Easy way to verify this sort of thing. Harder to play the race card there then.

I know some country has done it.

Cause then people will complain that the government is watching what they do and that the cameras will violate their right to privacy. Example people bitched about red light cameras claiming they violated their rights to privacy if I remember correctly the same will happen here

[Ifreann]

Of course the kid wasn't armed! Of course, of course, of course. It's always the cops fault no matter how clear cut it is, I keep forgetting.

If "The police say so" counts as clear cut to you when has it ever not been clear cut?

---

Let's use an example from a few days ago in Washington DC. Two police officers respond to a report of a burglary in an upscale neighbourhood. On the way, they encounter a black man walking along the street carrying two bags. They pull over and arrest him in preparation for a search. One of the people living in the houses adjacent, however - one Jody Westby, a white lawyer - sees the incident and marches out of her house with a housekeeper following behind recording events. She confronts the officers and takes control of the situation very quickly, forcing them to admit that not only were they in the wrong neighbourhood, but that 64-year-old Dennis Stucky was a longtime employee of that particular neighbourhood, acting as a maintenance person. She then walks over to Stucky, grabs him by the hand and pulls him away from the officers, insisting to them that he is innocent of any crime, that she's an attorney and that she intends to report this. The officers let her pull him away from them, and the confrontation ends with them leaving. There is a video of the entire incident available.

Now honestly, do you think that if Westby had been an African-American - whether female or male - and/or been not recording the confrontation, they would have let him/her grab a potential suspect and take over the situation like that?

I'm not defending trigger happy cops. What I am suggesting is that blacks need to learn to manage their anger (anger exacerbated undoubtedly by getting profiled) or whatever else makes them act "funny" in the eyes of cops before police in the US get some responsibility and accountability knocked into them. It's just the current state of affairs, and before it gets any better it is the best course of action and in the best interests of anyone interacting with police, unless they're content with becoming martyrs for the greater good of (eventually) speeding up this process. Attempting to protest abuse in the street is simply a bad idea for anyone in the US regardless of color and will continue to be so for a while most probably. Unless you genuinely fear for your life or have a good reason to believe they are about to do something very bad/serious , don't act up. If you feel you're innocent and/or being abused, be civil, adopt an attitude as passive as possible, and record the encounter as best you can, and sue/report them after.

So like Laerod has been saying for the last few threads on these stories, the police in the US need to be treated like muggers or wild animals, especially if you have dark skin, lest your shit be very thoroughly fucked up, and your ass arrested for the crime of having your shit fucked up. Assuming that the shit-up-fucking doesn't kill you, in which case you will not be arrested.

[Laerod]

You know if there's such a mistrust for police in america, why not just put camera's on the police uniform to be warn at all times? Easy way to verify this sort of thing. Harder to play the race card there then.

I know some country has done it.

Cause then people will complain that the government is watching what they do and that the cameras will violate their right to privacy. Example people bitched about red light cameras claiming they violated their rights to privacy if I remember correctly the same will happen here

I'd honestly have figured the biggest complaints about cops with cameras come from the cops themselves or are concerned with the general lack of independent storage of the recordings.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I'm not defending trigger happy cops. What I am suggesting is that blacks need to learn to manage their anger (anger exacerbated undoubtedly by getting profiled) or whatever else makes them act "funny" in the eyes of cops before police in the US get some responsibility and accountability knocked into them.

Oh come on. Did you see the way the lawyer acted towards the police officers? She was very visibly angry, and the officers involved didn't even reprimand her. Why do African-Americans have to be the submissive ones here? Why is it just people like Westby that can take charge and be angry at police officers?

It's just the current state of affairs, and before it gets any better it is the best course of action and in the best interests of anyone interacting with police, unless they're content with becoming martyrs for the greater good of (eventually) speeding up this process.

Screw that. Institutionalized authoritarianism has never been defeated by just sitting down and taking it.

Attempting to protest abuse in the street is simply a bad idea for anyone in the US regardless of color and will continue to be so for a while most probably.

And the only way to change that is to continue protesting.

Unless you genuinely fear for your life or have a good reason to believe they are about to do something very bad/serious , don't act up. If you feel you're innocent and/or being abused, be civil, adopt an attitude as passive as possible, and record the encounter as best you can, and sue/report them after.

And if that attitude had been taken to heart in the 50's and 60's, we'd still have Jim Crow laws.

I must apologize as I have unintentionally used overly vague wording. By "protest in the street" I did not refer to rallies etc. but rather "acting up" as in the actual act of protesting a police action as it happens, e.g. not cooperating/acting combative etc.

So no I was not referring to actual (peaceful) protests.

[Gig em Aggies]

Cause then people will complain that the government is watching what they do and that the cameras will violate their right to privacy. Example people bitched about red light cameras claiming they violated their rights to privacy if I remember correctly the same will happen here

I'd honestly have figured the biggest complaints about cops with cameras come from the cops themselves or are concerned with the general lack of independent storage of the recordings.

I think that may be true but I see a sense of the cameras being too bulky. I prefer something like a built in camera on a lethal weapon just like on tasers

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I'd honestly have figured the biggest complaints about cops with cameras come from the cops themselves or are concerned with the general lack of independent storage of the recordings.

I think that may be true but I see a sense of the cameras being too bulky. I prefer something like a built in camera on a lethal weapon just like on tasers

They aren't too bulky, and by far not the bulkiest item in the personal inventory of a cop.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Cause then people will complain that the government is watching what they do and that the cameras will violate their right to privacy. Example people bitched about red light cameras claiming they violated their rights to privacy if I remember correctly the same will happen here

I'd honestly have figured the biggest complaints about cops with cameras come from the cops themselves or are concerned with the general lack of independent storage of the recordings.

Storage could be solved by automatization and strict access control, or even not allowing deletion at all regardless of "security clearance" before a set amount of time through the software itself.

[Digital Planets]

Guy was carrying a gun, started shooting at a cop, cop shot back, did his job. Enough said. There is no racial profiling here.

[Allet Klar Chefs]

At least they were smart enough to plant a gun on him this time.

[Threlizdun]

More information is needed before making a proper judgement. Given how common police shootings of unarmed black men are, and how far many of them have gone to prevent the offending officers from being punished, it would be ridiculous to automatically assume the police account of the story is correct without further evidence.

If the man was armed, and he did fire upon the officer, then it is still important to assess why he did this. This is not just an act of a violent individual who wanted to cause harm, but yet another indication of greater systemic struggles. Ethnic, cultural, religious, sexual, and political minorities all face persecution by the police. Anyone who isn't a middle or upper-class, straight, white, well-bodied man has reason to fear the police, and for the most part, people who don't meet this criteria do tend to fear the police. I know plenty of people here who a themselves, not out of fear of criminals, but out of fear of the cops. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't considered it as well, because I genuinely don't feel safe around them. This is not excusing his actions if he committed them, but I must say that they are understandable, and I don't know what I would have done in his situation. I would not put it as being above me to fear being another statistic of yet another young black man shot and killed by police, and if I had that mindset that I might die if I didn't do something, I might have shot as well.

[Laerod]

I'd honestly have figured the biggest complaints about cops with cameras come from the cops themselves or are concerned with the general lack of independent storage of the recordings.

Storage could be solved by automatization and strict access control, or even not allowing deletion at all regardless of "security clearance" before a set amount of time through the software itself.

Oh, it most definitely can be solved. It just hasn't been, as far as I've heard.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

You can't really say for sure if the off duty officer was justified in the shooting or not yet. People assume things without hearing all the evidence.

Considering he was fired upon, it seems pretty justified.

[Seaxeland]

Justified shooting. Case closed. Move along.

[Sajuuk]

I'm sick and tired of hearing how he was a "good boy", and a "victim". The St. Louis Post-Dispatch (Newspaper) reports that the deceased was wearing an ankle bracelet due to a previous gun related offense. He was out on bail awaiting a trial in November. His uncle needs to accept the fact that you can't produce shell casings, and bullet holes with just a "sandwich".

Here's the article if you want to read it yourself

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 26f7e.html

[Laerod]

Justified shooting. Case closed. Move along.

The investigation is ongoing...

[Seaxeland]

Justified shooting. Case closed. Move along.

The investigation is ongoing...

He shot at a cop, the cop shot back. Case closed.

[Laerod]

The investigation is ongoing...

He shot at a cop, the cop shot back. Case closed.

The investigation is ongoing. You know, the case. It's not closed. The case is ongoing. It is being investigated. The investigation is ongoing.

[Seaxeland]

He shot at a cop, the cop shot back. Case closed.

The investigation is ongoing. You know, the case. It's not closed. The case is ongoing. It is being investigated. The investigation is ongoing.

Maybe you can't read? Let me try this again: He. Shot. At. A. Cop. And. The. Cop. Shot. Back.

The End. Case closed. Do I need to spell it out for you?