18 yr old shoots at off-duty St. Louis cop, gets killed

[Imperializt Russia]

Which fuels a literally vicious cycle.

How come? By assuming that killings and racial profiling excuse further crimes?

Because blacks are "statistically more like to commit a crime", they are racially profiled. They are stopped in the street, they are mistakenly arrested and sometimes they are shot on sight.

Not something the average whitey has to face.

I'm just glad I live in the UK where the worst thing that the police can do to a minority is just do stop and search.
Oh wait, no, that's not right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Azelle_Rodney
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_J ... de_Menezes
At least here it's basically rare. Thirty three since 1995.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Though you are right the police are changing their story and being rather inconsistent. Which I hate, you would think it would be easy to give out the pertinent details that you know at the time.

It would be a lot easier if the pertinent details weren't more or less like "white off-duty cop in uniform chased down random young black man, then shot him 17 times." That looks kinda bad don'cha know. Looks much better if he ripped off some store, or was acting uppity, or was suspicious like not having any ID when he was a passenger in a car stopped for a minor violation or trying to comply with an officer's order to get his license out of the car, or cocked a snook at a cop, or might of had a gun, or had a toy gun, or had a real gun, or shot a gun.

Frankly I tire of the "we don't have all the details, let's wait, don't rush justice" crowd. You all were quick enough to jump on the "that kid ripped off some smokes from a store" meme that these days is, well, iffy, or anything else for that matter that excuses white cops shooting, Tasing or beating black men. I. Tire.

When you're done with your strawman-y rants you can always come back, and, you know, actually contribute something.

[Ifreann]

What is a "police gun"? What precludes his ability to carry more than one magazine?

Probably he was trying to make the cop out as "evil" for changing mags, which the cop probably didn't (17 shots fired) .

Probably he doesn't know very much about guns and didn't expect a "police gun" to hold that many bullets.

A court does, but do we? "Innocent until proven guilty" is a decent basis for criminal law and proceedings, but we are talking about a cop here. This is someone that's been trusted with guns and the legal power to detain, arrest, and kill people in the line of duty. It's not unjustified to hold someone that uses lethal force to a higher standard than "we can't conclusively prove you did nothing wrong".

I fail to understand your logic. Because you hold someone to a higher standard you are supposed to give them the benefit of doubt "more" than you would to someone else.

...no you're not. That doesn't make any sense.

Which fuels a literally vicious cycle.

How come? By assuming that killings and racial profiling excuse further crimes?

It's pretty simple. Cops keep hassling black people for no good reason, so black communities lose their trust in the police. They start thinking the police are a bunch of racist shitheads, and who can blame them when the police keep fucking with them for being black? They stop reporting crimes, because it causes them more trouble than the criminals. So the criminals thrive, because no one will turn them over to the police. And the police respond to higher crime rates by hassling more innocent black people, based on this "Blacks are more likely to commit crime" reasoning, and it gets worse, and then some kid ends up getting shot by the police. And who the fuck is going to call 911 after that? Who's going to hear that the kid down the road is holding drugs or a gun and rat him out when the cops might kill him for it? So criminals thrive, and the cops hassle innocent black people, and on the cycle goes.

[Spirit of Hope]

I'll believe the officer once a ballistics team finds the bullets that were allegedly fired at the officer. Also, considering the climate between people of color and the police in this country for oh, the last hundred years or so, I can't say I find it terribly unfair that they're motives are called into question in situations like this.

Kind of hard to find a couple of bullets that were fired at near random and missed their target. Would you be satisfied with evidence that the person shot fired a gun?

Also to your statement about cops not deserving respect because of their uniform, I don't care if you don't respect them, but in your interactions you should act respectfully. It creates a different environment for the interaction that is more likely to see you walk away unharmed and un arrested.

You are saying he should get fired, because the situation is "highly suspicious". You haven't waited for an investigation or a trial.

He also said that "significant doubts" should be taken into account.

Police disciplinary hearings are distinctly protectionist. Even the "Independent Police Complaints Commission"'s impartiality in the UK has been called into question in recent years.

Then change the commissions and investigations. You shouldn't change the burden of proof under any circumstances.

[United States of Natan]

1. He was not on duty. He was off-duty and working for a private security company. Because he wore his uniform off-duty he has been suspended, or so I hear.

There was a similar situation on a recent episode of Franklin & Bash, where a crooked cop worked security on a private estate, trying to kick the real owner off for the person who pretended to own it, and used his position as a cop off-duty and stuff. If anyone remembers the episode more clearly, feel free to correct me.

[Ifreann]

1. He was not on duty. He was off-duty and working for a private security company. Because he wore his uniform off-duty he has been suspended, or so I hear.

There was a similar situation on a recent episode of Franklin & Bash, where a crooked cop worked security on a private estate, trying to kick the real owner off for the person who pretended to own it, and used his position as a cop off-duty and stuff. If anyone remembers the episode more clearly, feel free to correct me.

I would not count on a comedic drama(or is it dramatic comedy) for my legal insights.

[Tekania]

There was a similar situation on a recent episode of Franklin & Bash, where a crooked cop worked security on a private estate, trying to kick the real owner off for the person who pretended to own it, and used his position as a cop off-duty and stuff. If anyone remembers the episode more clearly, feel free to correct me.

I would not count on a comedic drama(or is it dramatic comedy) for my legal insights.

Well, then this is clearly no place for you!

[Scomagia]

I'll believe the officer once a ballistics team finds the bullets that were allegedly fired at the officer. Also, considering the climate between people of color and the police in this country for oh, the last hundred years or so, I can't say I find it terribly unfair that they're motives are called into question in situations like this.

Kind of hard to find a couple of bullets that were fired at near random and missed their target. Would you be satisfied with evidence that the person shot fired a gun?

Also to your statement about cops not deserving respect because of their uniform, I don't care if you don't respect them, but in your interactions you should act respectfully. It creates a different environment for the interaction that is more likely to see you walk away unharmed and un arrested.

He also said that "significant doubts" should be taken into account.

Police disciplinary hearings are distinctly protectionist. Even the "Independent Police Complaints Commission"'s impartiality in the UK has been called into question in recent years.

Then change the commissions and investigations. You shouldn't change the burden of proof under any circumstances.

There's absolutely no reason that a ballistics team, considering that this is part of their damn job, couldn't find at least one round embedded in a nearby wall. I never said you shouldn't act respectfully, merely that the police deserve only the same level of respect as anyone else.

[New Chalcedon]

What a load of bull. Until you can prove that all things being equal a cop will shot a black man deader than a white man this is but a myth. All things being equal meaning the exact same circumstances, the individual doing the exact same actions etc.

About a week after the Ferguson shooting, a white middle aged man was wandering in the street in Kalamazoo, with a rifle openly carried, and was very drunk. He got himself into a standoff with the police, eventually wilfully surrendered his weapon and was not even charged with an offence. He got to walk home, and could even pick up his weapon from the police station the next day.

Blacks get shot on the suspicion of being armed in much less dangerous or even suspicious circumstances than being drunk in charge of an openly carried longarm.
What's wrong with extending this nice, safe de-escalation strategy to non-whites?
http://www.salon.com/2014/09/05/gun_nut ... ry_zealot/

Heh...for the whitesplainers on this thread (you know who you are) compare and contrast.

For those who can't/don't wish to click through: That link I put up is to a video of a white teen being stopped by cops in the street...openly toting a loaded shotgun, refusing to produce any license to own/carry it, refusing to show proof of age, refusing to even identify himself.

What do the cops do? After a few minutes of trying to get him to show some kind of ID or license...they walk away. The kid gets interviews with local news, sobbing about how he's treated "as guilty until proven innocent"...pfeah. He wants to see what "guilty until proven innocent" looks like, he should turn black and see how he's treated. Oh, wait...he can't change his skin colour.

Compare with how blacks are routinely treated on the suspicion that they might be armed. Then - if you can do it with a straight face - tell me that there's no institutional racism in the way cops treat white vs. black folks.

I most certainly am not.

You are saying he should get fired, because the situation is "highly suspicious". You haven't waited for an investigation or a trial.

Did Shirley Sherrod get a trial before being forced to resign? Was time allowed for an investigation to determine if the accusations against her had any merit? No, of course not. What was the difference?

Oh, yeah - she was an African-American, accused of racism against whites. Not of killing one without cause, mind you, nor even of inflicting any injury on one. She was simply accused of being racist against whites. And the prospect of one of them uppity niggers applying some r-r-racism against the poor, innocent white guys hurt the white media establishment's precious fee-fees.

So on the strength of a doctored video, she was forced to resign, her career over.

Sorry, I have no sympathy for the cop. Sauce for the goose and all that - unless you're saying that the white police officer accused of murdering a black kid should be held to a lower standard than the black bureaucrat accused of harboring nasty feelings against whites? I know that to some people, white feelings are more important than black lives - but is that an argument you really want to make in the open somewhere other than Faux News or Stormfront (not that the difference is easy to tell these days)?

[Fireye]

whitesplainers

Useful contribution.

[New Chalcedon]

whitesplainers

Useful contribution.

Oh, yes - pick at one word you don't like, and ignore everything else said. A rather cheap tactic, commonly used by people who know they have no defensible argument to make - instead they hope that by diverting the subject to talking about the appropriateness of that specific word, the larger debate falls by the wayside.

Sorry, not interested.

[Laerod]

Useful contribution.

Oh, yes - pick at one word you don't like, and ignore everything else said. A rather cheap tactic, commonly used by people who know they have no defensible argument to make - instead they hope that by diverting the subject to talking about the appropriateness of that specific word, the larger debate falls by the wayside.

Sorry, not interested.

Yeah. And with a forum this white and male, whitesplaining is rather unavoidable.

[Condunum]

So on the strength of a doctored video, she was forced to resign, her career over.

Just a sidenote, the NAACP and the White House gave official apologies to Sherrod and offered her a new job which she declined.

[New Chalcedon]

So on the strength of a doctored video, she was forced to resign, her career over.

Just a sidenote, the NAACP and the White House gave official apologies to Sherrod and offered her a new job which she declined.

True. And if and when it's revealed that the shooting was justified, the cop can be offered a new job. That's fair, right?

[Condunum]

Just a sidenote, the NAACP and the White House gave official apologies to Sherrod and offered her a new job which she declined.

True. And if and when it's revealed that the shooting was justified, the cop can be offered a new job. That's fair, right?

Seems only reasonable.

Now if only the opposite scenario was just as fair.

[New Chalcedon]

True. And if and when it's revealed that the shooting was justified, the cop can be offered a new job. That's fair, right?

Seems only reasonable.

Now if only the opposite scenario was just as fair.

It may be the hour, but I don't quite get what you mean with your second sentence. Care to elaborate?

[Condunum]

Seems only reasonable.

Now if only the opposite scenario was just as fair.

It may be the hour, but I don't quite get what you mean with your second sentence. Care to elaborate?

I had a feeling that would be too vague. What I mean is, I'd hope that in the event the shooting is not justified, the officer face the consequences. Sadly that's not the case far too often.

[The Fascist American Empire]

The kid shot first. Cop defended himself. End of story.

[Condunum]

The kid shot first. Cop defended himself. End of story.*

*Pending the completion of all investigation proceedings.

[The Fascist American Empire]

The kid shot first. Cop defended himself. End of story.*

*Pending the completion of all investigation proceedings.

And the sky is blue, Brigadier Blatant.

[New Chalcedon]

The kid shot first. Cop defended himself. End of story.

May I borrow your crystal ball, so that I too may know precisely when official accounts are telling the truth and when they are lying, or simply mistaken?

After all, it's not like the St. Louis PD has already changed their version of events twice, including incorporating a physical impossibility into it...oh, wait.

It may be the hour, but I don't quite get what you mean with your second sentence. Care to elaborate?

I had a feeling that would be too vague. What I mean is, I'd hope that in the event the shooting is not justified, the officer face the consequences. Sadly that's not the case far too often.

Ah. No, it's very unusual for a cop who shot in error to be so much as reprimanded. Particularly when the dead person is black.

[Condunum]

*Pending the completion of all investigation proceedings.

And the sky is blue, Brigadier Blatant.

And that's why you said end of story in the middle of the book, right?

[Condunum]

The kid shot first. Cop defended himself. End of story.

May I borrow your crystal ball, so that I too may know precisely when official accounts are telling the truth and when they are lying, or simply mistaken?

After all, it's not like the St. Louis PD has already changed their version of events twice, including incorporating a physical impossibility into it...oh, wait.

I had a feeling that would be too vague. What I mean is, I'd hope that in the event the shooting is not justified, the officer face the consequences. Sadly that's not the case far too often.

Ah. No, it's very unusual for a cop who shot in error to be so much as reprimanded. Particularly when the dead person is black.

You know, I'm getting this strange feeling that one of the most racist states in America still have an institutional problem with racism in the police force. It's almost like the biggest instigators of racial violence in the south since the fucking 1910's has been law enforcement officers in and out of uniform.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Useful contribution.

Oh, yes - pick at one word you don't like, and ignore everything else said. A rather cheap tactic, commonly used by people who know they have no defensible argument to make - instead they hope that by diverting the subject to talking about the appropriateness of that specific word, the larger debate falls by the wayside.

Sorry, not interested.

No, the one who is changing the subject is you (singular and plural) . All that the crowd ready to automatically accuse a cop of murder and planting evidence and framing up a black man has been able to produce thus far, have been strawman-y general rants and anecdotal evidence of racial profiling.

Mind you, proving that blacks are profiled (which is long established and no one even tried to disprove in this discussion, so your "argument" is by all means a strawman) does not grant you the right (or, rather, it does - but don't expect anyone to take you seriously when making unsubstantiated claims) to state that a cop will kill a black man deader than a white one all things being equal. Plenty of white individuals have been killed on "just the suspicion of a firearm being brandished", you just don't hear of it on the news as much (or rather, the same big fuss isn't made of it) because it doesn't play into this "murdered because black!!!!111" narrative.

Your logic is, well, devoid of logic. For starters, to reach the conclusions you have apparently reached through nothing more than your anecdotal or irrelevant "evidence", you would need to first look at the rate of police encounters ending in use of force or lethalities from a racial perspective, and then try and adjust that for stuff like racial profiling, different criminality rates among races, etc.

Before you at least try and do some of these steps don't come here and lie to us how cops will kill a black man deader than a white man. kthxbai.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Just a sidenote, the NAACP and the White House gave official apologies to Sherrod and offered her a new job which she declined.

True. And if and when it's revealed that the shooting was justified, the cop can be offered a new job. That's fair, right?

How is that fair? Your solution is essentially a tu quoque? Two wrongs make a right, right?