Does God Exist?

[Jute]

Most of the time, they are content with their religion, too. And if they aren't, they are free to become atheists. No need to force it upon them, let them make their own choice. And religion is obviously not the only way to justify misery, war and evil on the world. Without religion, people would still have plenty of ways, like fascism, imperialism, other political view for example. There are unfortunately enough ways to justify discrimination and violence.

I never said it was the only way to justify that stuff, however, it is the most popular.
Imperialism is usually justified by nationalism, however, many justify it with religion. Like the Muslims feel entitled to the desert and sand that is the holy land.

Fascism is not a justification, it is a form of government. A theocracy can be fascist, so can a capitalist country. There are plenty of way of justifying anything, religion just happens to be open of the more popular ones, if the THE.most popular

In terms of war, it is certainly not the most popular. I already linked you to this article, which shows it's not. And it was written by an atheist. As for the other cases, it's usually debatable or a mixture of reasons.

[Creepoc Infinite]

The thing we named God exists in ourselfs just like the things we named soul.In my life i has been face some proof that some higher power exist. I dont like religions at all but i think that everyone need faith even if its come after clear mind is going out even after you find God after you lost any other hope.

What is this proof?

I think he's just arguing semantics and meanings.
And I guess he has a point.
Take the cosmological argument for example.

It says everything that exists has a beginning (I can agree with that)
Therefore the universe must have a beginning
Therefore there was something that caused the universe to exist, that cause we call god.

Now this of course is unjustifiably assuming that whatever caused the universe is an all powerful being
That is a baseless assumption, and if Complex things are caused to exist doesn't that mean an incomprehensibly more complex, which means it also needs something to cause it to exist, leading to an infinite regress.

Many Christian apologetics make this argument, however, this argument, as silly and unconvincing as it is, doesn't say anything about this "god" being the Christian one.
So the Christian who argue this are actually arguing for a deist god existing and are making a baseless assumption that it pertains to their god, because they don't consider that it may be so one else's god or nobody else's god or not even a god at all

They are defining that which caused the universe to exist as god. However, we have no evidence that what caused the universe is a who and not a what.

[Distruzio]

We were never prohibited. The Garden is an allegory for the perfect relationship between Man and Creation. A gift from God. Things are not perfect. But things are more perfected through Mankinds continued evolution with respect to the environment. We make a more Garden-like world with each passing day. Every time an individual's life is made a bit more pleasant, they move ever closer to that perfect relationship. It's a never ending process.

That is the purpose of the Garden. It gives us a vision to strive for.

Perhaps it is, but what reason do you have to think it is?
Not everyone accepts the bible as pure allegory and I can be pretty sure not ALL of it is allegory. Even the tower a Babel is not complete allegory.

What reason? The Church and Her doctrines. Both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches represent the vaaast majority of Christians. They both teach that the Bible is mostly allegorical. You aren't as likely to hear claptrap from us because, for the most part, we agree with atheist critiques of the bibliolotrous heretics among the Protestant denominations.

[Zottistan]

What is this proof?

I think he's just arguing semantics and meanings.
And I guess he has a point.
Take the cosmological argument for example.

It says everything that exists has a beginning (I can agree with that)
Therefore the universe must have a beginning
Therefore there was something that caused the universe to exist, that cause we call god.

Now this of course is unjustifiably assuming that whatever caused the universe is an all powerful being
That is a baseless assumption, and if Complex things are caused to exist doesn't that mean an incomprehensibly more complex, which means it also needs something to cause it to exist, leading to an infinite regress.

Many Christian apologetics make this argument, however, this argument, as silly and unconvincing as it is, doesn't say anything about this "god" being the Christian one.
So the Christian who argue this are actually arguing for a deist god existing and are making a baseless assumption that it pertains to their god, because they don't consider that it may be so one else's god or nobody else's god or not even a god at all

They are defining that which caused the universe to exist as god. However, we have no evidence that what caused the universe is a who and not a what.

How can everything that exists have a cause? Something has to just be, whether it be that it existed forever, which the universe could have, or that it came from nothing, which the universe could have.

[Creepoc Infinite]

I never said it was the only way to justify that stuff, however, it is the most popular.
Imperialism is usually justified by nationalism, however, many justify it with religion. Like the Muslims feel entitled to the desert and sand that is the holy land.

Fascism is not a justification, it is a form of government. A theocracy can be fascist, so can a capitalist country. There are plenty of way of justifying anything, religion just happens to be open of the more popular ones, if the THE.most popular

In terms of war, it is certainly not the most popular. I already linked you to this article, which shows it's not. And it was written by an atheist. As for the other cases, it's usually debatable or a mixture of reasons.

I don't disagree with you, however it has been the reason for many wars. Not modern ones really though.
Though there is the conflicts in the Middle East, which religion is tied to. And the crusades, which religion had tons to do with. Religion has been responsible for war before, even your link says that it has caused wars, even if it is an extremely small amount.

[Creepoc Infinite]

Perhaps it is, but what reason do you have to think it is?
Not everyone accepts the bible as pure allegory and I can be pretty sure not ALL of it is allegory. Even the tower a Babel is not complete allegory.

What reason? The Church and Her doctrines. Both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches represent the vaaast majority of Christians. They both teach that the Bible is mostly allegorical. You aren't as likely to hear claptrap from us because, for the most part, we agree with atheist critiques of the bibliolotrous heretics among the Protestant denominations.

Thanks for agreeing with us at least, but regardless of that fact, whether it be literal or allegory, it still doesn't make it true.

[Creepoc Infinite]

I think he's just arguing semantics and meanings.
And I guess he has a point.
Take the cosmological argument for example.

It says everything that exists has a beginning (I can agree with that)
Therefore the universe must have a beginning
Therefore there was something that caused the universe to exist, that cause we call god.

Now this of course is unjustifiably assuming that whatever caused the universe is an all powerful being
That is a baseless assumption, and if Complex things are caused to exist doesn't that mean an incomprehensibly more complex, which means it also needs something to cause it to exist, leading to an infinite regress.

Many Christian apologetics make this argument, however, this argument, as silly and unconvincing as it is, doesn't say anything about this "god" being the Christian one.
So the Christian who argue this are actually arguing for a deist god existing and are making a baseless assumption that it pertains to their god, because they don't consider that it may be so one else's god or nobody else's god or not even a god at all

They are defining that which caused the universe to exist as god. However, we have no evidence that what caused the universe is a who and not a what.

How can everything that exists have a cause? Something has to just be, whether it be that it existed forever, which the universe could have, or that it came from nothing, which the universe could have.

Exactly, the universe itself doesn't need a cause, because by definition it can't. No time existed before time existed for anything to cause the universe to exist, neither was there any space for this causer to exist in ok before existence.

You can't have "nothing is..." Not even "nothing isn't..."
Because nothing is nothing!
You can t come from nothing because this implies that nothing is a place, the idea of "before the universe" doesn't make sense because there was no "before the universe"

[Jute]

In terms of war, it is certainly not the most popular. I already linked you to this article, which shows it's not. And it was written by an atheist. As for the other cases, it's usually debatable or a mixture of reasons.

I don't disagree with you, however it has been the reason for many wars. Not modern ones really though.
Though there is the conflicts in the Middle East, which religion is tied to. And the crusades, which religion had tons to do with. Religion has been responsible for war before, even your link says that it has caused wars, even if it is an extremely small amount.

I never said it has never caused wars, just not the majority, like often claimed by atheists. Plenty of things have caused wars, that alone doesn't make them bad. Religion is tied in the Middle East conflicts, but not necessarily the cause. Politics and hidden operations by foreign powers, power and other things play an important role, too.

[Jute]

What reason? The Church and Her doctrines. Both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches represent the vaaast majority of Christians. They both teach that the Bible is mostly allegorical. You aren't as likely to hear claptrap from us because, for the most part, we agree with atheist critiques of the bibliolotrous heretics among the Protestant denominations.

Thanks for agreeing with us at least, but regardless of that fact, whether it be literal or allegory, it still doesn't make it true.

Not true as a science handbook obviously, but that doesn't mean the morals of the New Testament aren't true, or that the reports about the history of the people of Salomon are completely fictional, for example. In fact, they're with care and some source-criticism sometimes used as a historical source, as I already mentioned.

[Creepoc Infinite]

I don't disagree with you, however it has been the reason for many wars. Not modern ones really though.
Though there is the conflicts in the Middle East, which religion is tied to. And the crusades, which religion had tons to do with. Religion has been responsible for war before, even your link says that it has caused wars, even if it is an extremely small amount.

I never said it has never caused wars, just not the majority, like often claimed by atheists. Plenty of things have caused wars, that alone doesn't make them bad. Religion is tied in the Middle East conflicts, but not necessarily the cause. Politics and hidden operations by foreign powers, power and other things play an important role, too.

Of course it does, and I understand that now, but you can't deny that religion causes plenty of other problems.
Like homophobia, which is almost entirely religiously motivated. I have not seen a single atheist argue against homosexuality, however I see plenty of religious folk doing it, I even know plenty of ones that do. Even the bible says gays need to be stoned

The discrimination of atheists is also mostly religiously motivated, although not entirely, there is a stigma against us because of the idea that religion is somehow virtuous.

[Creepoc Infinite]

Thanks for agreeing with us at least, but regardless of that fact, whether it be literal or allegory, it still doesn't make it true.

Not true as a science handbook obviously, but that doesn't mean the morals of the New Testament aren't true, or that the reports about the history of the people of Salomon are completely fictional, for example. In fact, they're with care and some source-criticism sometimes used as a historical source, as I already mentioned.

I personally see the bible as allegorical with a bunch of morons who see it as literal.
The main reason why the bible is not historically accurate is because it's allegory, but the fact that it's allegory doesn't lend it any credibility. The bible has plagiarized older religious texts and historical texts and that's a fact.

[Creepoc Infinite]

I never said it has never caused wars, just not the majority, like often claimed by atheists. Plenty of things have caused wars, that alone doesn't make them bad. Religion is tied in the Middle East conflicts, but not necessarily the cause. Politics and hidden operations by foreign powers, power and other things play an important role, too.

Of course it does, and I understand that now, but you can't deny that religion causes plenty of other problems.
Like homophobia, which is almost entirely religiously motivated. I have not seen a single atheist argue against homosexuality, however I see plenty of religious folk doing it, I even know plenty of ones that do. Even the bible says gays need to be stoned

The discrimination of atheists is also mostly religiously motivated, although not entirely, there is a stigma against us because of the idea that religion is somehow virtuous.

By the way, the link also mentioned that wars were mostly religiously motivated before the 17th century, so there is truth to what I was saying.

[Democratic Wolkrain]

Im an atheist,too. Religion isnt totally bad, because its giving hope to the hopeless, but thats it. I was forced to go to the chourch and sunday scholl, but i finally got rid of it. Why, i already knew about science especialy biology and astronomy, even when I was young. And I often questioned my self "why has the god to control ous, couldnt there be a democracy", well I didnt know how to say the people's vote. Then all the stories are fake. It is Physicaly,Meteorologicaly, Astrophysicaly and Biologicaly inposible. Before I begin i would like to tell'ya this extremley smart sentence: "There is a plant full of life in an distand galaxy, and an subspecies of them thinks that they know everything and that their ghost chose exsactly that subspecies and that they are the centre of the universe. How seriously would you take them?" by Niel Tayson. For first i recommend reading the book the da vinci code. Next if god "is" allknowing and perfect, why did he make so many mistakes. First why did he forbithen eva to eat the apple, wouldnt it be obious that at one time some human would it, and why was it forbithen only for humans? If the snake had leggs than would this mean that it would belong to the anguidae family, i saw many times anguis frigalis and they are dum not evil. Next the great flood was a mass morder of god. And if all animal species survived, what bout fungi and plantae, not even protozoa? And parasites? Where did all the water come from, flowa powa? God is focused on the Homo Sapiens "human" but did he really wait 13,9 billion years for the man to evolve? What bout other homo species do they go to heaven, since it is really hard to determine human. What if all are praying to the wrong god, and the real one's mad by homer simpson. What if an perfect, nice& intelligent alien is praying to our god, will he be able to join the heaven or is god racist? And last one: If a nice, praying beliver ho was praying to live well, where killed by a bad guy. Does it then make any sense that god "protects'ya"? Why makes god so many differences between people, the poor pray, while the rich dont belive. Why are there only 5 evangelies in the bible and not 80 as originally. Jesus is a conspiracy continioued by Constantin the great. Where are or is the heaven? Why are we the only animal knowing about god, if every species is a son of god? What about Viruses, they own the RNA, so are they a product of capitalist god? БРЕЗБОЖНИК преберите! Τραυμα.

[Jute]

What I mean is that not all scientists agree with this materialist view of things and say it's not sufficient to explain consciousness, not even all atheists. Here's an article about an atheist who doesn't do that, on the magazine New Republic.

And again, that doesn't say a single thing about a valid alternating scientific theory existing.

This is a criticism of a materialist explanation of consciousness, and here's a scientific paper arguing against this Zombie hypothesis.

That's nice. Again, you've failed to provide an alternating theory, nor have you given me a single peer reviewed scientific paper disproving evolution producing consciousness. Do you just not know what a theory is?

Even if there isn't, that's not proof enough that the materialist theory is really true. I'm not saying I know it's wrong, but I believe that while it can help explaining some things about the brain, it cannot explain everything about it. Most people, and I imagine most scientists, too, would probably say that science isn't sure what exactly causes consciousness. Link for an example of a discussion.
At this point, can we agree to disagree?

[Distruzio]

What reason? The Church and Her doctrines. Both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches represent the vaaast majority of Christians. They both teach that the Bible is mostly allegorical. You aren't as likely to hear claptrap from us because, for the most part, we agree with atheist critiques of the bibliolotrous heretics among the Protestant denominations.

Thanks for agreeing with us at least, but regardless of that fact, whether it be literal or allegory, it still doesn't make it true.

It is the ultimate truth of proper faith. But, even knowing this, I have admitted that doubt is as much a part of theism as it is a part of atheism.

[Sun Wukong]

Of course it does, and I understand that now, but you can't deny that religion causes plenty of other problems.
Like homophobia, which is almost entirely religiously motivated. I have not seen a single atheist argue against homosexuality, however I see plenty of religious folk doing it, I even know plenty of ones that do. Even the bible says gays need to be stoned

The discrimination of atheists is also mostly religiously motivated, although not entirely, there is a stigma against us because of the idea that religion is somehow virtuous.

By the way, the link also mentioned that wars were mostly religiously motivated before the 17th century, so there is truth to what I was saying.

The problem is that religion inserts itself into everything. So everything has a religious element. But it's almost impossible to tell when religion is in the driver's seat or just along for the ride.

It very rarely insists the war car pull over, in any case.

[Creepoc Infinite]

Im an atheist,too. Religion isnt totally bad, because its giving hope to the hopeless, but thats it. I was forced to go to the chourch and sunday scholl, but i finally got rid of it. Why, i already knew about science especialy biology and astronomy, even when I was young. And I often questioned my self "why has the god to control ous, couldnt there be a democracy", well I didnt know how to say the people's vote. Then all the stories are fake. It is Physicaly,Meteorologicaly, Astrophysicaly and Biologicaly inposible. Before I begin i would like to tell'ya this extremley smart sentence: "There is a plant full of life in an distand galaxy, and an subspecies of them thinks that they know everything and that their ghost chose exsactly that subspecies and that they are the centre of the universe. How seriously would you take them?" by Niel Tayson. For first i recommend reading the book the da vinci code. Next if god "is" allknowing and perfect, why did he make so many mistakes. First why did he forbithen eva to eat the apple, wouldnt it be obious that at one time some human would it, and why was it forbithen only for humans? If the snake had leggs than would this mean that it would belong to the anguidae family, i saw many times anguis frigalis and they are dum not evil. Next the great flood was a mass morder of god. And if all animal species survived, what bout fungi and plantae, not even protozoa? And parasites? Where did all the water come from, flowa powa? God is focused on the Homo Sapiens "human" but did he really wait 13,9 billion years for the man to evolve? What bout other homo species do they go to heaven, since it is really hard to determine human. What if all are praying to the wrong god, and the real one's mad by homer simpson. What if an perfect, nice& intelligent alien is praying to our god, will he be able to join the heaven or is god racist? And last one: If a nice, praying beliver ho was praying to live well, where killed by a bad guy. Does it then make any sense that god "protects'ya"? Why makes god so many differences between people, the poor pray, while the rich dont belive. Why are there only 5 evangelies in the bible and not 80 as originally. Jesus is a conspiracy continioued by Constantin the great. Where are or is the heaven? Why are we the only animal knowing about god, if every species is a son of god? What about Viruses, they own the RNA, so are they a product of capitalist god? БРЕЗБОЖНИК преберите! Τραυμα.

I saw the da Vinci code and I know what you mean, but perhaps you could fix all the grammatical errors? It's kinda hard to read

[Creepoc Infinite]

By the way, the link also mentioned that wars were mostly religiously motivated before the 17th century, so there is truth to what I was saying.

The problem is that religion inserts itself into everything. So everything has a religious element. But it's almost impossible to tell when religion is in the driver's seat or just along for the ride.

It very rarely insists the war car pull over, in any case.

Which is a good reason to be hostile towards it and eliminate it wherever we see it attempting to control a situation.

[Distruzio]

The problem is that religion inserts itself into everything. So everything has a religious element. But it's almost impossible to tell when religion is in the driver's seat or just along for the ride.

It very rarely insists the war car pull over, in any case.

Which is a good reason to be hostile towards it and eliminate it wherever we see it attempting to control a situation.

Now you're speaking as if Religion is a conscious entity. It sounds... paranoid.

[Creepoc Infinite]

Thanks for agreeing with us at least, but regardless of that fact, whether it be literal or allegory, it still doesn't make it true.

It is the ultimate truth of proper faith. But, even knowing this, I have admitted that doubt is as much a part of theism as it is a part of atheism.

Especially concerning rival religions. But I rarely see a religious person doubting anything.

[Sun Wukong]

Which is a good reason to be hostile towards it and eliminate it wherever we see it attempting to control a situation.

Now you're speaking as if Religion is a conscious entity. It sounds... paranoid.

Says the guy who believes an invisible man is watching him.

[Distruzio]

It is the ultimate truth of proper faith. But, even knowing this, I have admitted that doubt is as much a part of theism as it is a part of atheism.

Especially concerning rival religions. But I rarely see a religious person doubting anything.

You've met one now. It's a part of Orthodoxy. Doubt, repent; rinse and repeat. We're quite aware of how fallen we each are.

[Jute]

I never said it has never caused wars, just not the majority, like often claimed by atheists. Plenty of things have caused wars, that alone doesn't make them bad. Religion is tied in the Middle East conflicts, but not necessarily the cause. Politics and hidden operations by foreign powers, power and other things play an important role, too.

Of course it does, and I understand that now, but you can't deny that religion causes plenty of other problems.
Like homophobia, which is almost entirely religiously motivated. I have not seen a single atheist argue against homosexuality, however I see plenty of religious folk doing it, I even know plenty of ones that do. Even the bible says gays need to be stoned

The discrimination of atheists is also mostly religiously motivated, although not entirely, there is a stigma against us because of the idea that religion is somehow virtuous.

Well, a lot of things causes plenty of other problems. That isn't limited to religion. Take a hammer for example. In the wrong hands, a potentially lethal weapon. In other hands, a tool build shelters for a family. Same with guns, knifes, cars, and so on.
And some problems might be more prevalent in religion, but that doesn't make them inherent to it. You can have religion without homophobia, as I said there are both homosexual who are Christians and pastors who are homosexual. And other religions have no problem with homosexuality whatsoever, for example the classical Greek pantheon.
And the stigma of atheists is I'd imagine a different form of people being suspicious towards other people that are not like them. I would say it's not right either, but blaming religion for that isn't right either. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Creepoc Infinite]

Which is a good reason to be hostile towards it and eliminate it wherever we see it attempting to control a situation.

Now you're speaking as if Religion is a conscious entity. It sounds... paranoid.

Nope nope nope, what I mean is if religious people are trying to control government or trying to take responsibility, we should shoot that down.
No religious anything should be tied to any institution with influence over the public

[Distruzio]

Now you're speaking as if Religion is a conscious entity. It sounds... paranoid.

Says the guy who believes an invisible man is watching him.

Who doesn't take a shower and get that eerie feeling every once in a while?