Does God (Christian) exist (Try No.2)

[Lingang]

Yes the Christian God exists.

Prove it. First which Christian god, there are many different ways of viewing that god. I will discuss based on this answer.

I can't physically or logically prove it to you, as I'm assuming that's what you mean. I mean, I can't show you God. I just have faith that said God exists. Does it go any further than that?

[Copenhagen Metropolis]

This is getting old...

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Antediluvian show-off. ;3

The flood was merely a showoff between the Sumerian deities, and the angelic hierarchy mad that Yahweh left Heaven. Lets just say it was quite costly to remove evidence of the flood even still we haven't got rid of it all.

That's why I stay with the Indian pantheon. Less warlike.

And frankly, to come back to the topic or I'll keep going and it's best I don't threadjack, I don't know whether Ganesha or Shiva exist or not, same with Yahweh.

[Neutraligon]

Atheism does not claim to be "Truth" or "Knowledge"

Notice how the two words are purposely capitalised, as to suggest that, oh I don't know, they cover a wider range than what their noncapitalised rendition would suggest? There are two epistemological grounds: Truth and Belief. What you know, knowledge, is where Truth and Belief intersect. Truth is that which is True independent of Belief, and Belief is that which is believed independent of Truth. Knowledge is what you believe to be true. Atheism is either Truth, Belief, or both (knowledge). You just said to me that Atheism does not claim to be Truth (ie that which is always true), and is not Knowledge (that which you or I believe to be true), which makes it, by elimination, Belief. Religion, and the existence of God more specifically, are also Belief. That is my point. It's not even contestable, I'm sorry to tell you this. You needn't be upset about it. It's not an insult, nor is it demeaning or derogatory towards Atheism.

again atheism is simply not theism

I'm not a theist, and neither am I an atheist, so this fails the first test.

You clearly did not understood what I wrote

Oh the irony.

atheism covers more then an absolute belief that god does not exist.

Ah, so it is Knowledge? Then why don't I believe it to be true?

Atheism covers those who lack the belief because they have never even heard of god

Something that is not Truth and that I do not Know is Belief, end of. God isn't Truth (His existence is dependent on Belief, which is what makes Him a God), and therefore cannot be Knowledge seeing as K = T + B.

those who see no proof of god

Did you even read my post? The fact that God is dependent on Belief, and that proof eliminates Belief and converts it into Truth (one possibility in phase space converted into either a 1 or 0 in real space) means that it is impossible to prove God, just as it is impossible to disprove God.

those who are too young to understand what a god is, those who are still waiting for a definition of god, etc. None of those are based on a belief.

They are, however, not Truth, and therefore neither are they Knowledge, either.

Sorry I missed the definition. No atheism is none of those. If I have never heard of something how do I believe in it, It isn't a claim to knowledge it makes no claim, so it is no belief, similarly it makes no claim, so it is not truth. Atheism is the response, "prove it." By definition you are either an atheist or a theist. If you are not a theist you are an atheist. The rest of your post is useless because again atheism makes no claim, it is simply not being a theist. Babies are atheists because they cannot even understand the concept of god, rocks are atheist because they cannot even think about the concept god. Atheist is simply everything that is not a theist.

[The Vekta-Helghast Empire]

Prove it. First which Christian god, there are many different ways of viewing that god. I will discuss based on this answer.

I can't physically or logically prove it to you, as I'm assuming that's what you mean. I mean, I can't show you God. I just have faith that said God exists. Does it go any further than that?

I just find it bizarre that you can simply have faith that the God in question exists. I mean, you could have faith in absolutely anything existing, hell you could even create your own ludicrous God, like the God of Microwave meals who upon your death sends you to a magical land filled with cheese toasties. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that one could have faith in something based upon the writings of a madman over a thousand years ago.. (Well, collection of madmen).

[The united states of Saints]

This is getting old...

Its been old been going on for several hundred years maybe even a thousand.

[Benuty]

I can't physically or logically prove it to you, as I'm assuming that's what you mean. I mean, I can't show you God. I just have faith that said God exists. Does it go any further than that?

I just find it bizarre that you can simply have faith that the God in question exists. I mean, you could have faith in absolutely anything existing, hell you could even create your own ludicrous God, like the God of Microwave meals who upon your death sends you to a magical land filled with cheese toasties. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that one could have faith in something based upon the writings of a madman over a thousand years ago.. (Well, collection of madmen).

Yeah thats totally not a ridiculous generalization what so ever.

[Benuty]

This is getting old...

Its been old been going on for several hundred years maybe even a thousand.

Its been getting old for nearly 14 billion years.

[Arkolon]

Prove it. First which Christian god, there are many different ways of viewing that god. I will discuss based on this answer.

I can't physically or logically prove it to you, as I'm assuming that's what you mean. I mean, I can't show you God. I just have faith that said God exists. Does it go any further than that?

No, it doesn't go any further. Take it this way: if you have no faith in God, then God does not exist. If God told you Himself whether or not he existed, even if He said He did exist and it was the truth, you would no longer have faith in God, as you have knowledge of God. Therefore, because you now know of God and do not have faith in God, God cannot exist.

God exists in phase space and only in phase space. His existence can only be a possibility, characterised by either a capital-B Belief in His existence or a capital-B Belief in the rejection of His existence. "God might exist" is the closest you can ever get to a correct answer.

[The Prophet]

There are no gods! Only the Goddess Eris! All religions are as true as they are false, if your confused consult your pineal gland!

[The Vekta-Helghast Empire]

I just find it bizarre that you can simply have faith that the God in question exists. I mean, you could have faith in absolutely anything existing, hell you could even create your own ludicrous God, like the God of Microwave meals who upon your death sends you to a magical land filled with cheese toasties. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that one could have faith in something based upon the writings of a madman over a thousand years ago.. (Well, collection of madmen).

Yeah thats totally not a ridiculous generalization what so ever.

Okay, perhaps the madman/madmen bit was a bit over-the-top, but still - the point stands. You could have faith in absolutely anything, why pick some incredibly horrid text to base your belief/faith upon?

[Mavorpen]

There are no gods! Only the Goddess Eris! All religions are as true as they are false, if your confused consult your pineal gland!

I found this more amusing than I should have.

[The united states of Saints]

Its been old been going on for several hundred years maybe even a thousand.

Its been getting old for nearly 14 billion years.

The debate of God existing or not or the estimate of how old the universe is in evolution terms or whatever?

[Occupied Deutschland]

I can't physically or logically prove it to you, as I'm assuming that's what you mean. I mean, I can't show you God. I just have faith that said God exists. Does it go any further than that?

No, it doesn't go any further. Take it this way: if you have no faith in God, then God does not exist. If God told you Himself whether or not he existed, even if He said He did exist and it was the truth, you would no longer have faith in God, as you have knowledge of God. Therefore, because you now know of God and do not have faith in God, God cannot exist.

God exists in phase space and only in phase space. His existence can only be a possibility, characterised by either a capital-B Belief in His existence or a capital-B Belief in the rejection of His existence. "God might exist" is the closest you can ever get to a correct answer.

God is Schrodinger's Cat with observation itself an impossibility. *nod*

[Lingang]

I can't physically or logically prove it to you, as I'm assuming that's what you mean. I mean, I can't show you God. I just have faith that said God exists. Does it go any further than that?

I just find it bizarre that you can simply have faith that the God in question exists. I mean, you could have faith in absolutely anything existing, hell you could even create your own ludicrous God, like the God of Microwave meals who upon your death sends you to a magical land filled with cheese toasties. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that one could have faith in something based upon the writings of a madman over a thousand years ago.. (Well, collection of madmen).

Well, maybe I stated that wrong. I see God in my life. Prayers of mine have been answered. As batshit insane it may sound to you, God has been helping me in my life. So that is the foundation of my faith. You don't believe for no damn actual reason, that IS ludicrous.

[Immoren]

I can't physically or logically prove it to you, as I'm assuming that's what you mean. I mean, I can't show you God. I just have faith that said God exists. Does it go any further than that?

I just find it bizarre that you can simply have faith that the God in question exists. I mean, you could have faith in absolutely anything existing, hell you could even create your own ludicrous God, like the God of Microwave meals who upon your death sends you to a magical land filled with cheese toasties. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that one could have faith in something based upon the writings of a madman over a thousand years ago.. (Well, collection of madmen).

Truth is often heard from the mouths of children, drunkards and madmen.

[Arkolon]

Notice how the two words are purposely capitalised, as to suggest that, oh I don't know, they cover a wider range than what their noncapitalised rendition would suggest? There are two epistemological grounds: Truth and Belief. What you know, knowledge, is where Truth and Belief intersect. Truth is that which is True independent of Belief, and Belief is that which is believed independent of Truth. Knowledge is what you believe to be true. Atheism is either Truth, Belief, or both (knowledge). You just said to me that Atheism does not claim to be Truth (ie that which is always true), and is not Knowledge (that which you or I believe to be true), which makes it, by elimination, Belief. Religion, and the existence of God more specifically, are also Belief. That is my point. It's not even contestable, I'm sorry to tell you this. You needn't be upset about it. It's not an insult, nor is it demeaning or derogatory towards Atheism.


I'm not a theist, and neither am I an atheist, so this fails the first test.


Oh the irony.


Ah, so it is Knowledge? Then why don't I believe it to be true?


Something that is not Truth and that I do not Know is Belief, end of. God isn't Truth (His existence is dependent on Belief, which is what makes Him a God), and therefore cannot be Knowledge seeing as K = T + B.


Did you even read my post? The fact that God is dependent on Belief, and that proof eliminates Belief and converts it into Truth (one possibility in phase space converted into either a 1 or 0 in real space) means that it is impossible to prove God, just as it is impossible to disprove God.


They are, however, not Truth, and therefore neither are they Knowledge, either.

Sorry I missed the definition. No atheism is none of those. If I have never heard of something how do I believe in it, It isn't a claim to Knowledge since it isn't a belief, it makes no claim, so it is no belief, similarly it makes no claim, so it is not truth.

There's this very basic root of epistemology that assesses what truth and belief are, and how they compare and comprise that which we consider knowledge. We have a Venn diagram of Truth, ie all things that are true in the world and beyond, and of Belief, or Faith, ie all things that we believe without necessary truth. Where these two circles intersect, however, is Knowledge, ie things that we believe to be true (things we know). Graphically, it looks like this.

In The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, God is mentioned to have retorted to someone who inquires about His existence that "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing". God's existence is dependent on faith. If there is no faith in God, then God does not exist. If God answers the question honestly as to whether or not He exists, then we will know whether or not He exists, which no longer makes His existence something we believe in but something that we believe to be true, ie that which we know. If we know, then we have no belief (faith) in God, and as such it is impossible for Him to exist.

The reason we cannot ever know whether or not God exists, and why this debate will continue for ever, is because you cannot find proof of His existence. You cannot ever know whether or not He exists because that's what makes him God; that's what gives Him (possible) existence. God, really, lives in phase space. His existence is a possibility, and cannot ever, ever, be translated as a possibility of either 1 or 0 because that would no longer make Him a God (even if the result is in His advantage).

I find militant atheism just as ignorant as militant theism. I feel sceptic about both sides, really, and prefer to join the ranks of other agnostics when it comes to the God issue.

That's for the definitions. Re: your edit, Atheism is Belief by elimination. You're saying that if you don't know something then how can you believe in it? Well, the answer is, quite simply, that you haven't believed in it yet. Similarly, just because you don't know everything about every Truth since the dawn of time does not mean that every Truth about everything since the dawn of time is not Truth.

[Benuty]

I just find it bizarre that you can simply have faith that the God in question exists. I mean, you could have faith in absolutely anything existing, hell you could even create your own ludicrous God, like the God of Microwave meals who upon your death sends you to a magical land filled with cheese toasties. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that one could have faith in something based upon the writings of a madman over a thousand years ago.. (Well, collection of madmen).

Truth is often heard from the mouths of children, drunkards and madmen.

More or so drunkards because honestly who isn't drunk when telling the truth about something?

[Arkolon]

No, it doesn't go any further. Take it this way: if you have no faith in God, then God does not exist. If God told you Himself whether or not he existed, even if He said He did exist and it was the truth, you would no longer have faith in God, as you have knowledge of God. Therefore, because you now know of God and do not have faith in God, God cannot exist.

God exists in phase space and only in phase space. His existence can only be a possibility, characterised by either a capital-B Belief in His existence or a capital-B Belief in the rejection of His existence. "God might exist" is the closest you can ever get to a correct answer.

God is Schrodinger's Cat with observation itself an impossibility. *nod*

Probably a better question to ask as to whether or not God exists, before going on to talk about Truth and Belief, is to ask back "What is a God?".

[Mavorpen]

God is Schrodinger's Cat with observation itself an impossibility. *nod*

Probably a better question to ask as to whether or not God exists, before going on to talk about Truth and Belief, is to ask back "What is a God?".

Something that doesn't exist. Duh.

[Immoren]

Truth is often heard from the mouths of children, drunkards and madmen.

More or so drunkards because honestly who isn't drunk when telling the truth about something?

I need more wi e.

[The united states of Saints]

I just find it bizarre that you can simply have faith that the God in question exists. I mean, you could have faith in absolutely anything existing, hell you could even create your own ludicrous God, like the God of Microwave meals who upon your death sends you to a magical land filled with cheese toasties. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that one could have faith in something based upon the writings of a madman over a thousand years ago.. (Well, collection of madmen).

Well, maybe I stated that wrong. I see God in my life. Prayers of mine have been answered. As batshit insane it may sound to you, God has been helping me in my life. So that is the foundation of my faith. You don't believe for no damn actual reason, that IS ludicrous.

Plus lets say if there really is a God that loves us why wouldn't I have faith he exists?

[Benuty]

Probably a better question to ask as to whether or not God exists, before going on to talk about Truth and Belief, is to ask back "What is a God?".

Something that doesn't exist. Duh.

I have to wonder what they think of mortals existing or not.

[Arkolon]

Probably a better question to ask as to whether or not God exists, before going on to talk about Truth and Belief, is to ask back "What is a God?".

Something that doesn't exist. Duh.

That would be circular, but first of all wrong. More correctly, if you're going for a purposely-circular argument, God would be that whose existence cannot be known.

[Mavorpen]

Something that doesn't exist. Duh.

I have to wonder what they think of mortals existing or not.

They can make us imaginary while also existing.