Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ

[La Xinga]

I disagree with you there, but what about the rest of Tanach?

As to the simplicity and understandbility of the Torah, or to the need to build fences around it?

As to your comment.

It is very difficult to have a national Law in Judaism if each person interprets the Torah according to what he thinks is best. The entire enterprise was an exercise in futility.

Yes, that is my point. It's a criticism of what they believe.

Well we should listen to our sages, because they know what's best and they preformed miracles, and we should trust and do as they say.

And also this:

I hear you, it's hard to find the balance with so many years of history between what God wants, and what our sages did to protect us/assist us in accessing what God wants.

Then there are also later prohibitions, such as not marrying more than one wife by the Ashkenazi communities.

[Menassa]

I disagree with you there, but what about the rest of Tanach?

As to the simplicity and understandbility of the Torah, or to the need to build fences around it?

Well creating fences is their prerogative.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commands and you will live; guard my teachings as the apple of your eye.

What you choose to do when you come to the fence is entirely your prerogative.

[Menassa]

As to the simplicity and understandbility of the Torah, or to the need to build fences around it?

As to your comment.

Yes, that is my point. It's a criticism of what they believe.

Well we should listen to our sages, because they know what's best and they preformed miracles, and we should trust and do as they say.

We shouldn't listen to them simply because they performed miracles. Bilam, and all sorts of other nefarious characters performed miracles too.

[La Xinga]

As to the simplicity and understandbility of the Torah, or to the need to build fences around it?

Well creating fences is their prerogative.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commands and you will live; guard my teachings as the apple of your eye.

What you choose to do when you come to the fence is entirely your prerogative.

LOL, i thought he meant a literal fence, like the kind a person is supposed to build around his/her roof.

[Menassa]

Well creating fences is their prerogative.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commands and you will live; guard my teachings as the apple of your eye.

What you choose to do when you come to the fence is entirely your prerogative.

LOL, i thought he meant a literal fence, like the kind a person is supposed to build around his/her roof.

No, we're talking about Rabbinical prohibition.

[La Xinga]

As to your comment.

Well we should listen to our sages, because they know what's best and they preformed miracles, and we should trust and do as they say.

We shouldn't listen to them simply because they performed miracles. Bilam, and all sorts of other nefarious characters performed miracles too.

But those people preformed it out of tuumah, and the sages preformed it out of Tahara, showing that they are well-versed.

[La Xinga]

LOL, i thought he meant a literal fence, like the kind a person is supposed to build around his/her roof.

No, we're talking about Rabbinical prohibition.

What about it?

[Menassa]

We shouldn't listen to them simply because they performed miracles. Bilam, and all sorts of other nefarious characters performed miracles too.

But those people preformed it out of tuumah, and the sages preformed it out of Tahara, showing that they are well-versed.

Regardless of the way in which they were performed, miracles are no barometer for truth. We see this thousands of times throughout the Torah. Eliyahu and the Kohanei Ba'al, the whole dor HaMidbar is an exercise in this lesson.

[Menassa]

No, we're talking about Rabbinical prohibition.

What about it?

Read the other posts.

[Ethel mermania]

As to the simplicity and understandbility of the Torah, or to the need to build fences around it?

As to your comment.

Yes, that is my point. It's a criticism of what they believe.

Well we should listen to our sages, because they know what's best and they preformed miracles, and we should trust and do as they say.

And also this:

Then there are also later prohibitions, such as not marrying more than one wife by the Ashkenazi communities.

Then I dont understand your question. Please rephrase it.

[La Xinga]

But those people preformed it out of tuumah, and the sages preformed it out of Tahara, showing that they are well-versed.

Regardless of the way in which they were performed, miracles are no barometer for truth. We see this thousands of times throughout the Torah. Eliyahu and the Kohanei Ba'al, the whole dor HaMidbar is an exercise in this lesson.

Once again, those were preformed out of tummah', preforimg it out of tahara means you know a-lot about it and are very well versed, with some more stuff, it is possible we can trust the person.

Like Moshe Rabbeinu and the signals Hashem gave him! That earned the trust about Bnei Yisrael, like sticking his hand into his garment and it turned into tzoraas, and then he stuck it back in and it was cleared!

[La Xinga]

As to your comment.

Well we should listen to our sages, because they know what's best and they preformed miracles, and we should trust and do as they say.

And also this:

Then I dont understand your question. Please rephrase it.

You said this:

My problem with most of the rabbinic interpretations is that I think the Torah is a beautifully simple document. It says what it means and it means what it says. I am a believer in the theory that there are 613 mitzvot in the Torah, if god wanted more there would be 614 mitzvot. So I object to the interpretations that add to the burden to what a jew should and should not do or be.

Does the same "simplicity" you say apply for you to the rest of Tanach?

[Menassa]

Regardless of the way in which they were performed, miracles are no barometer for truth. We see this thousands of times throughout the Torah. Eliyahu and the Kohanei Ba'al, the whole dor HaMidbar is an exercise in this lesson.

Once again, those were preformed out of tummah', preforimg it out of tahara means you know a-lot about it and are very well versed, with some more stuff, it is possible we can trust the person.

Like Moshe Rabbeinu and the signals Hashem gave him! That earned the trust about Bnei Yisrael, like sticking his hand into his garment and it turned into tzoraas, and then he stuck it back in and it was cleared!

You missed the point of that Midrash, the elders did not believe Moshe until he said "I have come to redeem you" in the exact formula that they were expecting. They believed him not because of the miracles, but because he repeated to them the phrase that they had been told by their fathers that the redeemer would send.

[La Xinga]

Once again, those were preformed out of tummah', preforimg it out of tahara means you know a-lot about it and are very well versed, with some more stuff, it is possible we can trust the person.

Like Moshe Rabbeinu and the signals Hashem gave him! That earned the trust about Bnei Yisrael, like sticking his hand into his garment and it turned into tzoraas, and then he stuck it back in and it was cleared!

You missed the point of that Midrash, the elders did not believe Moshe until he said "I have come to redeem you" in the exact formula that they were expecting. They believed him not because of the miracles, but because he repeated to them the phrase that they had been told by their fathers that the redeemer would send.

Yes of course, but the miracles helped him. Anyone could've said: "PAKOD PAKADITI! I'M YOUR LEADER, LET'S GO!" 0

He also said Hashem's 72 letter name, which was impossible for him to know.

[Ethel mermania]

Then I dont understand your question. Please rephrase it.

You said this:

My problem with most of the rabbinic interpretations is that I think the Torah is a beautifully simple document. It says what it means and it means what it says. I am a believer in the theory that there are 613 mitzvot in the Torah, if god wanted more there would be 614 mitzvot. So I object to the interpretations that add to the burden to what a jew should and should not do or be.

Does the same "simplicity" you say apply for you to the rest of Tanach?

Got it, thanks.

For the most part yes, in a way the Tenach evolves. From god taking direct action to esther where the Hero's are primarily human acting with gods spiritual guidance rather than direct action on God's part.

[La Xinga]

You said this:

Does the same "simplicity" you say apply for you to the rest of Tanach?

Got it, thanks.

For the most part yes, in a way the Tenach evolves. From god taking direct action to esther where the Hero's are primarily human acting with gods spiritual guidance rather than direct action on God's part.

But without God they would all cease to exist!

[Menassa]

You missed the point of that Midrash, the elders did not believe Moshe until he said "I have come to redeem you" in the exact formula that they were expecting. They believed him not because of the miracles, but because he repeated to them the phrase that they had been told by their fathers that the redeemer would send.

Yes of course, but the miracles helped him. Anyone could've said: "PAKOD PAKADITI! I'M YOUR LEADER, LET'S GO!" 0

He also said Hashem's 72 letter name, which was impossible for him to know.

Right, anyone could have said that, but he was not believed until he said that. Had someone come up and performed the miracles it would have been worthless without the phrase that their fathers taught them. I mean you don't have to take my word for it, says it right in the Torah.

[La Xinga]

Yes of course, but the miracles helped him. Anyone could've said: "PAKOD PAKADITI! I'M YOUR LEADER, LET'S GO!" 0

He also said Hashem's 72 letter name, which was impossible for him to know.

Right, anyone could have said that, but he was not believed until he said that. Had someone come up and performed the miracles it would have been worthless without the phrase that their fathers taught them. I mean you don't have to take my word for it, says it right in the Torah.

Of course, but just alone saying Pakod pakaditi wouldn't help him, anyone could've said that.

I'm not saying we should believe people because of miracles, but what I am saying if someone can do make a miracle without Tummah and just Tahara, he may be very well versed. A-lot of Tzadikkim did miracles, but it can be shown they are also well versed.

[Menassa]

Right, anyone could have said that, but he was not believed until he said that. Had someone come up and performed the miracles it would have been worthless without the phrase that their fathers taught them. I mean you don't have to take my word for it, says it right in the Torah.

Of course, but just alone saying Pakod pakaditi wouldn't help him, anyone could've said that.

Then why was this the phrase that caused them to believe he was the redeemer and not someone else? Just as anyone could preform those miracles if you put it as 'well-versed'

I'm not saying we should believe people because of miracles, but what I am saying if someone can do make a miracle without Tummah and just Tahara, he may be very well versed. A-lot of Tzadikkim did miracles, but it can be shown they are also well versed.

Miracles are a method of communication, nothing more, the belief or disbelief rests in the message, not the method.

[Fahran]

Miracles are a method of communication, nothing more, the belief or disbelief rests in the message, not the method.

^ This. If we believed everyone who was alleged to have performed miracles, we'd be apostates. The message matters a good deal more - both the Written and the Oral Torah.

[La Xinga]

Of course, but just alone saying Pakod pakaditi wouldn't help him, anyone could've said that.

Then why was this the phrase that caused them to believe he was the redeemer and not someone else? Just as anyone could preform those miracles if you put it as 'well-versed'

I'm not saying we should believe people because of miracles, but what I am saying if someone can do make a miracle without Tummah and just Tahara, he may be very well versed. A-lot of Tzadikkim did miracles, but it can be shown they are also well versed.

Miracles are a method of communication, nothing more, the belief or disbelief rests in the message, not the method.

Not exactly anyone can preform miracles like that!!!
I know, but miracles do help belief.

Miracles are a method of communication, nothing more, the belief or disbelief rests in the message, not the method.

^ This. If we believed everyone who was alleged to have performed miracles, we'd be apostates. The message matters a good deal more - both the Written and the Oral Torah.

Yes, but I think you've read my statements wrong.

[Fahran]

Yes, but I think you've read my statements wrong.

We take miracles which reverse the natural order as proof that G-d is present but only because we lack the appropriate faith in G-d to know that G-d is always there, and that miracles can occur even without explicit and universl acknowledgement because they have the appearance of mundaneness and nature. A lot of commentaries on Esther serve to elucidate this point. I'll try to find some of the better sources I have on this topic. I recall a rabbi comparing the miracles that occur before Esther to flashes of lightning and to the salvation of the Jews celebrated on Purim as akin to the coming of dawn. It was a powerful image. Essentially though, I think that Menassa's point emphasizing the primacy of the message is of fundamental importance to Jewish life - for it protects the Nation of Israel from being led astray by charlatans. As has often occurred in the past if the full body of Jewish learning and histories are to be believed.

[Menassa]

Yes, but I think you've read my statements wrong.

We take miracles which reverse the natural order as proof that G-d is present but only because we lack the appropriate faith in G-d to know that G-d is always there, and that miracles can occur even without explicit and universl acknowledgement because they have the appearance of mundaneness and nature. A lot of commentaries on Esther serve to elucidate this point. I'll try to find some of the better sources I have on this topic. I recall a rabbi comparing the miracles that occur before Esther to flashes of lightning and to the salvation of the Jews celebrated on Purim as akin to the coming of dawn. It was a powerful image. Essentially though, I think that Menassa's point emphasizing the primacy of the message is of fundamental importance to Jewish life - for it protects the Nation of Israel from being led astray by charlatans. As has often occurred in the past if the full body of Jewish learning and histories are to be believed.

For false prophets are more than capable of performing miracles that are against the natural order. It is as you said, not the miracle, but the message. Does that message repeat what our fathers were shown at Sinai or does it diverge? If the latter, then no amount of miracle will make a difference, the message must be rejected.

[Ethel mermania]

Got it, thanks.

For the most part yes, in a way the Tenach evolves. From god taking direct action to esther where the Hero's are primarily human acting with gods spiritual guidance rather than direct action on God's part.

But without God they would all cease to exist!

They are with god, that's what important to remember.

[La Xinga]

Yes, but I think you've read my statements wrong.

We take miracles which reverse the natural order as proof that G-d is present but only because we lack the appropriate faith in G-d to know that G-d is always there, and that miracles can occur even without explicit and universl acknowledgement because they have the appearance of mundaneness and nature. A lot of commentaries on Esther serve to elucidate this point. I'll try to find some of the better sources I have on this topic. I recall a rabbi comparing the miracles that occur before Esther to flashes of lightning and to the salvation of the Jews celebrated on Purim as akin to the coming of dawn. It was a powerful image. Essentially though, I think that Menassa's point emphasizing the primacy of the message is of fundamental importance to Jewish life - for it protects the Nation of Israel from being led astray by charlatans. As has often occurred in the past if the full body of Jewish learning and histories are to be believed.

OK, and?

But without God they would all cease to exist!

They are with god, that's what important to remember.

Well, yeah! But I still think that they technically couldn't move without Hashem allowing it to happen.