Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ

[Ethel mermania]

Oh, it's no problem. I definitely get how it could be confusing.


Very, very naughty.

In all seriousness, it would depend. Sincere Jewish converts to Christianity and Islam tend to assimilate into neighboring populations extremely quickly, usually within two or three generations. So they soon cease to be ethnically Jewish, though the original convert would still be ethnically Jewish. Additionally, they might be considered religiously Jewish by Halakha if their mother is Jewish. Jewish atheists, on the other hand, have managed to cling on to their Jewish heritage a bit better, especially in countries that attached a stigma to Jewish heritage, where Jewish people formed their own somewhat insular communities, or Israel.


In my view? Jewish.


It's a bit inevitable given Halakha considers anyone with a Jewish mother to be Jewish and that Judaism doesn't set out to proselytize. It's a bit like the Zoroastrian faith in that regard, which likewise has an ethnic component depending on the community in question.

I'm gonna be honest, I don't know who or what this Halakha is, but it seems to be wrong in that regard. Religion is a personal belief, not something determined by your mother. To be honest I find the idea that your religious status is controlled by your parents rather than you, to be deeply profane.

Halakha is jewish law, as formed by the opinions of the rabbis over the ages

And xtian babies just baptise themselves eh?
nice piece of hypocracy you got going there.

[Salus Maior]

Halakha is jewish law, as formed by the opinions of the rabbis over the ages

And xtian babies just baptise themselves eh?
nice piece of hypocracy you got going there.

He's not a Christian.

[Salus Maior]

It’s not profane, it just doesn’t fit neatly into your modernist, individualist, anti traditional worldview.

Believing that you should have final say in your religious affiliation, not your parents or bloodline, is modernist, individualist and anti-traditional? No, dude.

...It is literally all of those things, yes.

[Prydania]

I'm gonna be honest, I don't know who or what this Halakha is, but it seems to be wrong in that regard. Religion is a personal belief, not something determined by your mother. To be honest I find the idea that your religious status is controlled by your parents rather than you, to be deeply profane.

First off? You don't get to tell Jewish people how Jewish religious laws work. It's the height of arrogance to come into a community you are not a part of and start telling them how they ought to run their affairs. Besides. There's a very nasty history of non-Jews forcing Jews to abandon their religious beliefs, so yeah. I'm also sensitive to that. You find my religion profane? Well no one asked you.

To your broader point...oh boy. I'm going to guess you don't know many Jewish people. The way you're speaking makes it sound like you're approaching this from a purely theoretical standpoint. Which you wouldn't be doing if you actually...knew Jewish people.

I say that because yes...Jewish law states that if your mother is a Jew you are a Jew. Know what though? Plenty of people with Jewish mothers raised in Jewish homes become atheists. Or "secular Jews" who value the culture but not the religious side of the faith. And if you had any sort of interaction with Jewish people? You'd know that if you want up to one of these Jewish atheists and said "did you know that according to Jewish religious law you're still Jewish?" they'd likely shrug their shoulders because...get this...they're atheists!
It's not like Jewish people go "well your mother was Jewish therefore we're going to force you to be an observant Jew for all of your life."
Come on now.

[Ethel mermania]

Halakha is jewish law, as formed by the opinions of the rabbis over the ages

And xtian babies just baptise themselves eh?
nice piece of hypocracy you got going there.

He's not a Christian.

Shows what I know, thanx

[Neutraligon]

I'm gonna be honest, I don't know who or what this Halakha is, but it seems to be wrong in that regard. Religion is a personal belief, not something determined by your mother. To be honest I find the idea that your religious status is controlled by your parents rather than you, to be deeply profane.

First off? You don't get to tell Jewish people how Jewish religious laws work. It's the height of arrogance to come into a community you are not a part of and start telling them how they ought to run their affairs. Besides. There's a very nasty history of non-Jews forcing Jews to abandon their religious beliefs, so yeah. I'm also sensitive to that. You find my religion profane? Well no one asked you.

To your broader point...oh boy. I'm going to guess you don't know many Jewish people. The way you're speaking makes it sound like you're approaching this from a purely theoretical standpoint. Which you wouldn't be doing if you actually...knew Jewish people.

I say that because yes...Jewish law states that if your mother is a Jew you are a Jew. Know what though? Plenty of people with Jewish mothers raised in Jewish homes become atheists. Or "secular Jews" who value the culture but not the religious side of the faith. And if you had any sort of interaction with Jewish people? You'd know that if you want up to one of these Jewish atheists and said "did you know that according to Jewish religious law you're still Jewish?" they'd likely shrug their shoulders because...get this...they're atheists!
It's not like Jewish people go "well your mother was Jewish therefore we're going to force you to be an observant Jew for all of your life."
Come on now.

As a Jewish atheist, my answer would be yep, I still consider myself a Jew, even if I do not believe in the god. Guess what, I still do the services and keep the law (for the most part, I am not orthodox). Judaism is an ethno religion due to it being something that is passed through the mother while also being a religion. In that it is very different from say Christianity.

[Rojava Free State]

First off? You don't get to tell Jewish people how Jewish religious laws work. It's the height of arrogance to come into a community you are not a part of and start telling them how they ought to run their affairs. Besides. There's a very nasty history of non-Jews forcing Jews to abandon their religious beliefs, so yeah. I'm also sensitive to that. You find my religion profane? Well no one asked you.

To your broader point...oh boy. I'm going to guess you don't know many Jewish people. The way you're speaking makes it sound like you're approaching this from a purely theoretical standpoint. Which you wouldn't be doing if you actually...knew Jewish people.

I say that because yes...Jewish law states that if your mother is a Jew you are a Jew. Know what though? Plenty of people with Jewish mothers raised in Jewish homes become atheists. Or "secular Jews" who value the culture but not the religious side of the faith. And if you had any sort of interaction with Jewish people? You'd know that if you want up to one of these Jewish atheists and said "did you know that according to Jewish religious law you're still Jewish?" they'd likely shrug their shoulders because...get this...they're atheists!
It's not like Jewish people go "well your mother was Jewish therefore we're going to force you to be an observant Jew for all of your life."
Come on now.

As a Jewish atheist, my answer would be yep, I still consider myself a Jew, even if I do not believe in the god. Guess what, I still do the services and keep the law (for the most part, I am not orthodox). Judaism is an ethno religion due to it being something that is passed through the mother while also being a religion. In that it is very different from say Christianity.

Since judaism is an ethnicity, you can never truly turn your back on it completely

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I'm gonna be honest, I don't know who or what this Halakha is, but it seems to be wrong in that regard. Religion is a personal belief, not something determined by your mother. To be honest I find the idea that your religious status is controlled by your parents rather than you, to be deeply profane.

Halakha is jewish law, as formed by the opinions of the rabbis over the ages

And xtian babies just baptise themselves eh?
nice piece of hypocracy you got going there.

I don't support Baptizing babies as an idea either. But at least when someone who was baptized as a baby stops being Christian, no one's going to say they're still bound to Christianity.

[Neutraligon]

Halakha is jewish law, as formed by the opinions of the rabbis over the ages

And xtian babies just baptise themselves eh?
nice piece of hypocracy you got going there.

I don't support Baptizing babies as an idea either. But at least when someone who was baptized as a baby stops being Christian, no one's going to say they're still bound to Christianity.

Because Christianity is solely a religion, it is no an ethno-religion. A person of African ethnicity who moves to the US and adopts the culture does not stop being of African ethnicity simply because they changed their culture. Similarly a person who is Jewish ethnically does not stop being Jewish ethnically simply because they chose to change religions.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Believing that you should have final say in your religious affiliation, not your parents or bloodline, is modernist, individualist and anti-traditional? No, dude.

...It is literally all of those things, yes.

First off, that's wild to me. That's like saying you shouldn't have the final say in what your personal beliefs are.

Second off, this isn't some cooky modernist anti-traditional, libertine idea. My POV on this has been mainstream in the west since 1791, probably far earlier. Heck, as I understand Christianity, which you adhere to, Christianity agrees with me on this.

[Ethel mermania]

...It is literally all of those things, yes.

First off, that's wild to me. That's like saying you shouldn't have the final say in what your personal beliefs are.

Second off, this isn't some cooky modernist anti-traditional, libertine idea. My POV on this has been mainstream in the west since 1791, probably far earlier. Heck, as I understand Christianity, which you adhere to, Christianity agrees with me on this.

He is not saying it's a bad thing, he is saying it's a modern non traditionalist notion. Past western societies were far more religious than we are now. Church going was the norm, not anymore.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I'm gonna be honest, I don't know who or what this Halakha is, but it seems to be wrong in that regard. Religion is a personal belief, not something determined by your mother. To be honest I find the idea that your religious status is controlled by your parents rather than you, to be deeply profane.

First off? You don't get to tell Jewish people how Jewish religious laws work. It's the height of arrogance to come into a community you are not a part of and start telling them how they ought to run their affairs. Besides. There's a very nasty history of non-Jews forcing Jews to abandon their religious beliefs, so yeah. I'm also sensitive to that. You find my religion profane? Well no one asked you.

To your broader point...oh boy. I'm going to guess you don't know many Jewish people. The way you're speaking makes it sound like you're approaching this from a purely theoretical standpoint. Which you wouldn't be doing if you actually...knew Jewish people.

I say that because yes...Jewish law states that if your mother is a Jew you are a Jew. Know what though? Plenty of people with Jewish mothers raised in Jewish homes become atheists. Or "secular Jews" who value the culture but not the religious side of the faith. And if you had any sort of interaction with Jewish people? You'd know that if you want up to one of these Jewish atheists and said "did you know that according to Jewish religious law you're still Jewish?" they'd likely shrug their shoulders because...get this...they're atheists!
It's not like Jewish people go "well your mother was Jewish therefore we're going to force you to be an observant Jew for all of your life."
Come on now.

Honestly, I don't know a whole lot about Judaism or Jewish culture, but I'd like to learn, and I'm not trying to say that all of Judaism is horrible, I don't know enough to make that judgement. What I will say though is that I don't think you need to have a PHD in Jewish theology to take issue with the entanglement of ethnicity and religion that's going on here.

I didn't say your religion was profane, I said that not letting the individual have final say on their religious affiliation was profane.

If the law saying that anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish is just a vestigial formality that isn't binding in any real way, then great.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

First off, that's wild to me. That's like saying you shouldn't have the final say in what your personal beliefs are.

Second off, this isn't some cooky modernist anti-traditional, libertine idea. My POV on this has been mainstream in the west since 1791, probably far earlier. Heck, as I understand Christianity, which you adhere to, Christianity agrees with me on this.

He is not saying it's a bad thing, he is saying it's a modern non traditionalist notion. Past western societies were far more religious than we are now. Church going was the norm, not anymore.

Yes, but to my understanding, even when the west was much more religious, it still allowed people to determine their own affiliation at the end of the day.

[Neutraligon]

First off? You don't get to tell Jewish people how Jewish religious laws work. It's the height of arrogance to come into a community you are not a part of and start telling them how they ought to run their affairs. Besides. There's a very nasty history of non-Jews forcing Jews to abandon their religious beliefs, so yeah. I'm also sensitive to that. You find my religion profane? Well no one asked you.

To your broader point...oh boy. I'm going to guess you don't know many Jewish people. The way you're speaking makes it sound like you're approaching this from a purely theoretical standpoint. Which you wouldn't be doing if you actually...knew Jewish people.

I say that because yes...Jewish law states that if your mother is a Jew you are a Jew. Know what though? Plenty of people with Jewish mothers raised in Jewish homes become atheists. Or "secular Jews" who value the culture but not the religious side of the faith. And if you had any sort of interaction with Jewish people? You'd know that if you want up to one of these Jewish atheists and said "did you know that according to Jewish religious law you're still Jewish?" they'd likely shrug their shoulders because...get this...they're atheists!
It's not like Jewish people go "well your mother was Jewish therefore we're going to force you to be an observant Jew for all of your life."
Come on now.

Honestly, I don't know a whole lot about Judaism or Jewish culture, but I'd like to learn, and I'm not trying to say that all of Judaism is horrible, I don't know enough to make that judgement. What I will say though is that I don't think you need to have a PHD in Jewish theology to take issue with the entanglement of ethnicity and religion that's going on here.

I didn't say your religion was profane, I said that not letting the individual have final say on their religious affiliation was profane.

If the law saying that anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish is just a vestigial formality that isn't binding in any real way, then great.

Depends what you mean by binding. As far a your actions, nope you can go about your merry way without caring one jot about you being ethnically Jewish. However being Jewish does effect one thing, and that is Israel's law of return, which allows Jews to go to Israel and become Israeli citizens.

edit: nevermind I am wrong, apparently converting to another religion means you are not eligible unless you are married to a Jew. Also the law was extended to those of Jewish ancestry period (ie Jewish father/grandfather).

[Nakena]

He is not saying it's a bad thing, he is saying it's a modern non traditionalist notion. Past western societies were far more religious than we are now. Church going was the norm, not anymore.

Yes, but to my understanding, even when the west was much more religious, it still allowed people to determine their own affiliation at the end of the day.

Christianity is (as Islam, Buddhism and some others) an universalist religion. Like you can become Buddhist ez pz.

Sikhism and Shintoism are somewhat more tied to specific nations.

And now Judaism is, strictly speaking, a tribal religion. (and by no means the only one)

[Ethel mermania]

Honestly, I don't know a whole lot about Judaism or Jewish culture, but I'd like to learn, and I'm not trying to say that all of Judaism is horrible, I don't know enough to make that judgement. What I will say though is that I don't think you need to have a PHD in Jewish theology to take issue with the entanglement of ethnicity and religion that's going on here.

I didn't say your religion was profane, I said that not letting the individual have final say on their religious affiliation was profane.

If the law saying that anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish is just a vestigial formality that isn't binding in any real way, then great.

Depends what you mean by binding. As far a your actions, nope you can go about your merry way without caring one jot about you being ethnically Jewish. However being Jewish does effect one thing, and that is Israel's law of return, which allows Jews to go to Israel and become Israeli citizens.

edit: nevermind I am wrong, apparently converting to another religion means you are not eligible unless you are married to a Jew. Also the law was extended to those of Jewish ancestry period (ie Jewish father/grandfather).

Unless you are Meyer Lansky.

[Rojava Free State]

Honestly, I don't know a whole lot about Judaism or Jewish culture, but I'd like to learn, and I'm not trying to say that all of Judaism is horrible, I don't know enough to make that judgement. What I will say though is that I don't think you need to have a PHD in Jewish theology to take issue with the entanglement of ethnicity and religion that's going on here.

I didn't say your religion was profane, I said that not letting the individual have final say on their religious affiliation was profane.

If the law saying that anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish is just a vestigial formality that isn't binding in any real way, then great.

Depends what you mean by binding. As far a your actions, nope you can go about your merry way without caring one jot about you being ethnically Jewish. However being Jewish does effect one thing, and that is Israel's law of return, which allows Jews to go to Israel and become Israeli citizens.

edit: nevermind I am wrong, apparently converting to another religion means you are not eligible unless you are married to a Jew. Also the law was extended to those of Jewish ancestry period (ie Jewish father/grandfather).

Beggars can't be choosers. If you want a Jewish state, you gotta take as many Jews as you can get, even if they converted to another religion

[Neutraligon]

Depends what you mean by binding. As far a your actions, nope you can go about your merry way without caring one jot about you being ethnically Jewish. However being Jewish does effect one thing, and that is Israel's law of return, which allows Jews to go to Israel and become Israeli citizens.

edit: nevermind I am wrong, apparently converting to another religion means you are not eligible unless you are married to a Jew. Also the law was extended to those of Jewish ancestry period (ie Jewish father/grandfather).

Unless you are Meyer Lansky.

Law allows them to block a person with a criminal past

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Yes, but to my understanding, even when the west was much more religious, it still allowed people to determine their own affiliation at the end of the day.

Christianity is (as Islam, Buddhism and some others) an universalist religion. Like you can become Buddhist ez pz.

Sikhism and Shintoism are somewhat more tied to specific nations.

And now Judaism is, strictly speaking, a tribal religion. (and by no means the only one)

At the risk of seeming bigoted, I think I like the idea of universalist religions more.

[Fahran]

Yes, but to my understanding, even when the west was much more religious, it still allowed people to determine their own affiliation at the end of the day.

Someone ought to have told the Euros that before the Thirty Year War and the Reconquista. I do think Salus has a point regarding the argument you made. It's an extremely modern, secular, and individualistic interpretation of how religion works, one that's at odds with more traditional conceptions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam certainly.

[Prydania]

Honestly, I don't know a whole lot about Judaism or Jewish culture...

That much is obvious.
And I'm sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, but geeze. Have you looked around lately? There's no shortage of neo-Nazi trash ready to spread misinformation about my people in the name of dehumanizing us. And then you come in here not just uninformed but with some pretty wild hot takes that can only be explained by either sheer ignorance or malice.

What I will say though is that I don't think you need to have a PHD in Jewish theology to take issue with the entanglement of ethnicity and religion that's going on here.

Heh. Jewish ethnicity and religion have been intertwined since...checks watch...roughly 5,000 years ago? I did a pretty comprehensive write-up on the subject earlier in this thread, but the long and short of it is that Judaism has its roots in the tribal religion of the ancient Israelites. You know how the Greeks had Greek polytheism, the Norse had the Norse gods, etc? Well the ancient Israelites had one G-d, the G-d of their nation. Their people. That's a huge over-simplification of it, but that's what Judaism sprung from.

It's not ideal. My mother, despite converting to Judaism, has faced some prejudices within the Jewish community because she wasn't born Jewish (the Talmud says you're supposed to treat converts as if they were born Jews, but hey, humans will be humans). Still? It is what it is. Jewish ethnicity and religious identity are fundamentally intertwined and have been long since before the Common Era.
For you to walk in and go "I don't know much about your religion or culture but I take issue with your community's ethno-religious identity steeped in 5,000 years of history and tradition" is the height of arrogance.
If you truly just want to learn about Judaism? Wonderful! Maybe come in with a bit less judgement. It'll do you wonders.

I didn't say your religion was profane, I said that not letting the individual have final say on their religious affiliation was profane.

If the law saying that anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish is just a vestigial formality that isn't binding in any real way, then great.

And this is what I mean when I say you're coming in with some pretty bad takes.
Like...do you seriously think the religious law saying anyone born to a Jewish mother is Jewish is binding in any way? Do you think we have Jew Police going around, making sure people born to Jewish mothers are staying observant?

Do you honestly believe that someone born to a Jewish mother who decides that they would like to convert to Christianity or Islam, or become an atheist, will be stopped because a law in a religion they choose not to follow says they're still Jewish? Come on. You don't even need to know much about Judaism to know that's not how that works.

People will chose whatever religious affiliation they like, regardless of the faith they're born into. Jewish religious law says a child of a Jewish mother is a Jew, but ultimately no one's stopping that person from making their own decisions.

But at least when someone who was baptized as a baby stops being Christian, no one's going to say they're still bound to Christianity.

Um.
The Catholic Church will consider you a Catholic if you've been baptized in a Catholic Church. Even if you become an atheist or convert to another religion.
I'm unsure about other Christian denominations but the Catholic Church most certainly considers you a Catholic for life if you're baptized as one as a baby.

[Prydania]

At the risk of seeming bigoted, I think I like the idea of universalist religions more.

Well I mean...I don't particularly care what you think re: my religion (and ethnicity ). You're an atheist, so I would assume we're all just silly people worshipping an invisible sky father to you regardless of our religion. And you know what? That's fair. I have no inherent beef with atheism.

As I said though, I don't really care what you think. I think that you want to learn is nice, but I wish you'd do it with a lot less judgement. Ultimately though? What you think is immaterial. The only thing I ask of you is to leave us be in peace. If you learn nothing else about Judaism learn that its history is a long string of persecutions.
Find our beliefs silly or outdated, whatever. I don't even disagree on some of that, but geeze. Can people just stop putting us through the wringer?

[Nakena]

Christianity is (as Islam, Buddhism and some others) an universalist religion. Like you can become Buddhist ez pz.

Sikhism and Shintoism are somewhat more tied to specific nations.

And now Judaism is, strictly speaking, a tribal religion. (and by no means the only one)

At the risk of seeming bigoted, I think I like the idea of universalist religions more.

Two specific "universalist" religions, Christianity and Islam come also onboard with the concept of every very single human being on this planet supposed to become an adherant to their deity. Which is... uh oh

[Salus Maior]

...It is literally all of those things, yes.

First off, that's wild to me. That's like saying you shouldn't have the final say in what your personal beliefs are.

Second off, this isn't some cooky modernist anti-traditional, libertine idea. My POV on this has been mainstream in the west since 1791, probably far earlier. Heck, as I understand Christianity, which you adhere to, Christianity agrees with me on this.

No, it really hasn't.

Christianity holds that children should be raised to be Christians.

[Salus Maior]

I don't support Baptizing babies as an idea either. But at least when someone who was baptized as a baby stops being Christian, no one's going to say they're still bound to Christianity.

Because Christianity is solely a religion, it is no an ethno-religion. A person of African ethnicity who moves to the US and adopts the culture does not stop being of African ethnicity simply because they changed their culture. Similarly a person who is Jewish ethnically does not stop being Jewish ethnically simply because they chose to change religions.

Ehh, it can be an ethno-religion.

Just ask Armenian Apostolics. You can't even join their denomination unless you are an Armenian or are marrying in.