Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ

[Rojava Free State]

Here's the thing, if being jewish is a genetic thing and even atheist Jews can be considered Jews nonetheless, doesn't that cause an issue regarding the palestinians? Because genetic tests have revealed that the palestinians are mostly descended from the indigenous people of Israel and are extremely genetically close to jews. They're probably genetically closer to jews than ulster protestants and Catholics are to each other. So what is your take on that assuming genes can make one a jew?

Functionally, these genetic tests have seldom or never been requested on a cynical basis. As far as I can tell, they're employed to bring back Jewish communities from the Diaspora that might not be perceived as Jewish by stricter measurements or the descendants of those communities. That would include groups like the Yisrael Bet and certain Jewish Indian populations. If Palestinians began identifying as Jewish, became atheists or began reading Torah, and sought to make aliyah, they'd pretty much check all the boxes. They won't do that, however, because it would mean forsaking Palestinian identity and, for the religious types, their genuine religious beliefs.

But if Jews can be atheists, why can't they be Christian or Muslim too? You yourself said Jews are an ethnic group, so technically by being descendants of Jews, aren't Palestinians Jews, or couldn't they be if they simply identified as such?

[Ethel mermania]

Halakha is a religious law code that has come to influence Jewish ethnic identity to a significant extent. It's not racial because Jewishness doesn't invariably translate to light skin or which ever physical trait you care to name. Presumably, the people who would request a genetic test to confirm matrilinial descent would feel some connection to Israel or the broader Jewish community as well.


Yes, it's an ethnoreligious category. You can have Jews of different races in much the same way as you can have Persians or Arabs of different races because of how broad and diverse we are as a group. These aren't racial groups though if you hate any of them on ethnic grounds it would be racist.


I wouldn't presume to decide someone else's identity in that way. I identify as a Jewish American personally rather than an American Jew or a Jew living in America.

Here's the thing, if being jewish is a genetic thing and even atheist Jews can be considered Jews nonetheless, doesn't that cause an issue regarding the palestinians? Because genetic tests have revealed that the palestinians are mostly descended from the indigenous people of Israel and are extremely genetically close to jews. They're probably genetically closer to jews than ulster protestants and Catholics are to each other. So what is your take on that assuming genes can make one a jew?

Remember when I said the chief rabbinate is weird. Keep that in mind.

You are going a lot deeper than intended by the rabbinate. They are looking for it to prove jewishness of particular people from countries (russiA, Belarus, etc.) Are jewish. I would surmise They are not looking for a jew gene but a specific matrilineal descent to a Known jewess grand or great grand parent


For better or worse they make immigrants prove themselves qualified for the benefits of the law of return.

[Fahran]

But if Jews can be atheists, why can't they be Christian or Muslim too? You yourself said Jews are an ethnic group, so technically by being descendants of Jews, aren't Palestinians Jews, or couldn't they be if they simply identified as such?

Historically, Jewish people who have sincerely converted to Christianity or Islam have been assimilated into Gentile populations. This trend has continued more or less unabated to the present with the exception of small sects like Jews for Jesus who strike me more as an instrument of proselytization and conversion than a Jewish population that will remain unassimilated for generations.

[Ethel mermania]

Of course the local jew paper mentions two recent topics

Jewish genealogy


https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.co ... come-from/


And who be a jew and the rabbinate

https://www.jta.org/quick-reads

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Halakha is a religious law code that has come to influence Jewish ethnic identity to a significant extent. It's not racial because Jewishness doesn't invariably translate to light skin or which ever physical trait you care to name. Presumably, the people who would request a genetic test to confirm matrilinial descent would feel some connection to Israel or the broader Jewish community as well.


Yes, it's an ethnoreligious category. You can have Jews of different races in much the same way as you can have Persians or Arabs of different races because of how broad and diverse we are as a group. These aren't racial groups though if you hate any of them on ethnic grounds it would be racist.


I wouldn't presume to decide someone else's identity in that way. I identify as a Jewish American personally rather than an American Jew or a Jew living in America.

Here's the thing, if being jewish is a genetic thing and even atheist Jews can be considered Jews nonetheless, doesn't that cause an issue regarding the palestinians? Because genetic tests have revealed that the palestinians are mostly descended from the indigenous people of Israel and are extremely genetically close to jews. They're probably genetically closer to jews than ulster protestants and Catholics are to each other. So what is your take on that assuming genes can make one a jew?

If there is Judaism in the genes, you are Jewish (lineage)

[Ethel mermania]

Here's the thing, if being jewish is a genetic thing and even atheist Jews can be considered Jews nonetheless, doesn't that cause an issue regarding the palestinians? Because genetic tests have revealed that the palestinians are mostly descended from the indigenous people of Israel and are extremely genetically close to jews. They're probably genetically closer to jews than ulster protestants and Catholics are to each other. So what is your take on that assuming genes can make one a jew?

If there is Judaism in the genes, you are Jewish (lineage)

No.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

If there is Judaism in the genes, you are Jewish (lineage)

No.

Look, I didn't say it as religion.Judaism as a religious belief is naturally based on the Torah.

[Rojava Free State]

If there is Judaism in the genes, you are Jewish (lineage)

No.

Hey man either it's an ethnicity or it isn't. If the palestinians are mostly of Jewish descent and being a Jew is an ethnicity then they're to the Jews what Moros are to ancient pagan filipinos.

[Bear Stearns]

But if Jews can be atheists, why can't they be Christian or Muslim too? You yourself said Jews are an ethnic group, so technically by being descendants of Jews, aren't Palestinians Jews, or couldn't they be if they simply identified as such?

Historically, Jewish people who have sincerely converted to Christianity or Islam have been assimilated into Gentile populations. This trend has continued more or less unabated to the present with the exception of small sects like Jews for Jesus who strike me more as an instrument of proselytization and conversion than a Jewish population that will remain unassimilated for generations.

Atheist Jews are more likely to assimilate into Gentile society than religious ones. Liberal Jews will be the ones to kill Judaism in about four generations because they either don't have kids or marry non-Jews.

[Rojava Free State]

But if Jews can be atheists, why can't they be Christian or Muslim too? You yourself said Jews are an ethnic group, so technically by being descendants of Jews, aren't Palestinians Jews, or couldn't they be if they simply identified as such?

Historically, Jewish people who have sincerely converted to Christianity or Islam have been assimilated into Gentile populations. This trend has continued more or less unabated to the present with the exception of small sects like Jews for Jesus who strike me more as an instrument of proselytization and conversion than a Jewish population that will remain unassimilated for generations.

The gene tests say otherwise. The fact stands that if one can be ethnically jewish, that is descended from a common Israelite origin, the palestinians are of ethnic Jewish stock. If they aren't Jews in descent because they're Muslim and christian, then Judaism is not an ethnic background but instead is a religion

[Fahran]

Atheist Jews are more likely to assimilate into Gentile society than religious ones. Liberal Jews will be the ones to kill Judaism in about four generations because they either don't have kids or marry non-Jews.

Atheist Jews making aliyah to Israel have no issues with assimilation in a place like Tel Aviv. That's the whole point. I have yet to meet a Christian or Muslim of Jewish descent who strongly engages with their Jewish heritage after two or three generations.

[Fahran]

The gene tests say otherwise. The fact stands that if one can be ethnically jewish, that is descended from a common Israelite origin, the palestinians are of ethnic Jewish stock. If they aren't Jews in descent because they're Muslim and christian, then Judaism is not an ethnic background but instead is a religion

A test of mitochondrial DNA is based on Jewish religious law.

[Salus Maior]

I’m reading through the Old Testament for school, and I have some interesting questions.

Would the descendants of Esau and Lot also be considered Jews? They weren’t Israelites (at least, they weren’t in Egypt), but they were blessed and protected by God when the Israelites came back and started conquering.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Historically, Jewish people who have sincerely converted to Christianity or Islam have been assimilated into Gentile populations. This trend has continued more or less unabated to the present with the exception of small sects like Jews for Jesus who strike me more as an instrument of proselytization and conversion than a Jewish population that will remain unassimilated for generations.

The gene tests say otherwise. The fact stands that if one can be ethnically jewish, that is descended from a common Israelite origin, the palestinians are of ethnic Jewish stock. If they aren't Jews in descent because they're Muslim and christian, then Judaism is not an ethnic background but instead is a religion

Judaism isn't an ethnic, background, it's a religion. Right? I'm not sure here, but I think that's right isn't it?

[Fahran]

Judaism isn't an ethnic, background, it's a religion. Right? I'm not sure here, but I think that's right isn't it?

It's both.

[Fahran]

I’m reading through the Old Testament for school, and I have some interesting questions.

Would the descendants of Esau and Lot also be considered Jews? They weren’t Israelites (at least, they weren’t in Egypt), but they were blessed and protected by God when the Israelites came back and started conquering.

The descendants of Esau became the Edomites whereas the descendants of Lot became the Moabites. The descendats of Esau's brother Yaakov (Jacob) became the Israelites. These were all distinct, albeit related, nations/peoples. G-d kept his promises to them as well, but, to give the short answer, they weren't considered Jews and, if I remember correctly, neither of these peoples exist anymore, having been assimilated and/or destroyed by Qahtanite Arab populations in late antiquity.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Judaism isn't an ethnic, background, it's a religion. Right? I'm not sure here, but I think that's right isn't it?

It's both.

I'm sorry, and I don't mean to be hateful, but I've always found that extremely confusing.

What does that make someone who's ethnically Jewish, but not religiously Jewish?

What does that make someone who converted TO Judaism?

If you ask me, an uninformed gentile atheist , ethnic Judaism and religious Judaism should not be so bound together as they are now.

[Fahran]

I'm sorry, and I don't mean to be hateful, but I've always found that extremely confusing.

Oh, it's no problem. I definitely get how it could be confusing.

What does that make someone who's ethnically Jewish, but not religiously Jewish?

Very, very naughty.

In all seriousness, it would depend. Sincere Jewish converts to Christianity and Islam tend to assimilate into neighboring populations extremely quickly, usually within two or three generations. So they soon cease to be ethnically Jewish, though the original convert would still be ethnically Jewish. Additionally, they might be considered religiously Jewish by Halakha if their mother is Jewish. Jewish atheists, on the other hand, have managed to cling on to their Jewish heritage a bit better, especially in countries that attached a stigma to Jewish heritage, where Jewish people formed their own somewhat insular communities, or Israel.

What does that make someone who converted TO Judaism?

In my view? Jewish.

If you ask me, an uninformed gentile atheist , ethnic Judaism and religious Judaism should not be so bound together as they are now.

It's a bit inevitable given Halakha considers anyone with a Jewish mother to be Jewish and that Judaism doesn't set out to proselytize. It's a bit like the Zoroastrian faith in that regard, which likewise has an ethnic component depending on the community in question.

[Salus Maior]

I’m reading through the Old Testament for school, and I have some interesting questions.

Would the descendants of Esau and Lot also be considered Jews? They weren’t Israelites (at least, they weren’t in Egypt), but they were blessed and protected by God when the Israelites came back and started conquering.

The descendants of Esau became the Edomites whereas the descendants of Lot became the Moabites. The descendats of Esau's brother Yaakov (Jacob) became the Israelites. These were all distinct, albeit related, nations/peoples. G-d kept his promises to them as well, but, to give the short answer, they weren't considered Jews and, if I remember correctly, neither of these peoples exist anymore, having been assimilated and/or destroyed by Qahtanite Arab populations in late antiquity.

Do you think they had their own Abrahamic tradition?

Yes, I imagine they don't exist anymore. It seems that only the Israelites have managed to stick around so long.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I'm sorry, and I don't mean to be hateful, but I've always found that extremely confusing.

Oh, it's no problem. I definitely get how it could be confusing.

What does that make someone who's ethnically Jewish, but not religiously Jewish?

Very, very naughty.

In all seriousness, it would depend. Sincere Jewish converts to Christianity and Islam tend to assimilate into neighboring populations extremely quickly, usually within two or three generations. So they soon cease to be ethnically Jewish, though the original convert would still be ethnically Jewish. Additionally, they might be considered religiously Jewish by Halakha if their mother is Jewish. Jewish atheists, on the other hand, have managed to cling on to their Jewish heritage a bit better, especially in countries that attached a stigma to Jewish heritage, where Jewish people formed their own somewhat insular communities, or Israel.

What does that make someone who converted TO Judaism?

In my view? Jewish.

If you ask me, an uninformed gentile atheist , ethnic Judaism and religious Judaism should not be so bound together as they are now.

It's a bit inevitable given Halakha considers anyone with a Jewish mother to be Jewish and that Judaism doesn't set out to proselytize. It's a bit like the Zoroastrian faith in that regard, which likewise has an ethnic component depending on the community in question.

I'm gonna be honest, I don't know who or what this Halakha is, but it seems to be wrong in that regard. Religion is a personal belief, not something determined by your mother. To be honest I find the idea that your religious status is controlled by your parents rather than you, to be deeply profane.

[Salus Maior]

Oh, it's no problem. I definitely get how it could be confusing.


Very, very naughty.

In all seriousness, it would depend. Sincere Jewish converts to Christianity and Islam tend to assimilate into neighboring populations extremely quickly, usually within two or three generations. So they soon cease to be ethnically Jewish, though the original convert would still be ethnically Jewish. Additionally, they might be considered religiously Jewish by Halakha if their mother is Jewish. Jewish atheists, on the other hand, have managed to cling on to their Jewish heritage a bit better, especially in countries that attached a stigma to Jewish heritage, where Jewish people formed their own somewhat insular communities, or Israel.


In my view? Jewish.


It's a bit inevitable given Halakha considers anyone with a Jewish mother to be Jewish and that Judaism doesn't set out to proselytize. It's a bit like the Zoroastrian faith in that regard, which likewise has an ethnic component depending on the community in question.

I'm gonna be honest, I don't know who or what this Halakha is, but it seems to be wrong in that regard. Religion is a personal belief, not something determined by your mother. To be honest I find the idea that your religious status is controlled by your parents rather than you, to be deeply profane.

It’s not profane, it just doesn’t fit neatly into your modernist, individualist, anti traditional worldview.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I'm gonna be honest, I don't know who or what this Halakha is, but it seems to be wrong in that regard. Religion is a personal belief, not something determined by your mother. To be honest I find the idea that your religious status is controlled by your parents rather than you, to be deeply profane.

It’s not profane, it just doesn’t fit neatly into your modernist, individualist, anti traditional worldview.

Believing that you should have final say in your religious affiliation, not your parents or bloodline, is modernist, individualist and anti-traditional? No, dude.

[Fahran]

Do you think they had their own Abrahamic tradition?

Probably not. They seem to have been polytheistic, worshipping an assortment of Canaanite, Mesopotamian, and Arabian deities with some local idols thrown into the mix. They spoke Semitic languages, however.

Yes, I imagine they don't exist anymore. It seems that only the Israelites have managed to stick around so long.

The movement of Arab populations such as the Nabateans, Lakhmids, and Ghassanids into the Eastern Roman Empire in late antiquity began the assimilation of a good many of the Semitic-speaking populations in the Middle East, a process that occurred even more rapidly with the arrival of Islam.

[Fahran]

Believing that you should have final say in your religious affiliation, not your parents or bloodline, is modernist, individualist and anti-traditional? No, dude.

Halakha is Jewish law. It takes precedence over personal opinion on these matters. Of course, a person who is considered Jewish by Halakha can consider themselves irreligious, Christian, or Muslim if they like and would probably be accepted into those religious communities without too much of a fuss. A lot of Arab tribes, for instance, seem to have claimed some sort of Jewish descent, especially among the Adnanites. Jewish people will consider them as having strayed or been lost, though opinions on the matter do seem somewhat divided.

[Nakena]

I'm gonna be honest, I don't know who or what this Halakha is, but it seems to be wrong in that regard. Religion is a personal belief, not something determined by your mother. To be honest I find the idea that your religious status is controlled by your parents rather than you, to be deeply profane.

Thats however how it is being dertermined. Even the wikipedia thus says jews are an ethno-religious group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreli ... ewish_case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews