Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ

[Reikoku]

2. The guy has 300 pages of primary source material in his bibliography, go argue with that.

That's not an argument, that's just a cop out. How am I supposed to argue with a bunch of sources I can't read?

Also people who specialize in the source material have addressed the book and come to the conclusion that it has serious flaws. "Sources" don't guarantee accuracy. People can willfully or unintentionally misinterpret them, suffer from confirmation bias, etc.

[Grimmsland]

You can draw that line back to the book of John. Some would argue, concerning German antisemitism that line extends all the way back to Amalek.

I blame Paul.

I have my own theory about Saul/Paul (I've yet to read it elsewhere, in this take)

That he either upon his own volition or not went about on a mission to protect .. to preserve Judaism/Jewry. Jesus' form of messianism was Rome friendly-Caesar friendly-State friendly , even if not (yet) gentile/non-Jew friendly, and Pharisaical hostile. So Saul , the Pharisaical Jew, former killer of Christians , went about to turn this potentially dangerous messianism outward and away from Jewry by negating the requirement(s) to have first been a Jew (convert or not), be circumcised and keep dietary laws. These three things alone would cause Jews to turn away from it.

Was it only Paul that stated whatever it was along the line of "there is neither Jew nor Greek"? Or is it written that Jesus himself stated this as well? If Jesus (actually) stated this it could blow my theory out of the water... because that part added on to those others would be the nail in the coffin as to what Saul/Paul's intention was.

[Menassa]

I blame Paul.

I have my own theory about Saul/Paul (I've yet to read it elsewhere, in this take)

That he either upon his own volition or not went about on a mission to protect .. to preserve Judaism/Jewry. Jesus' form of messianism was Rome friendly-Caesar friendly-State friendly , even if not (yet) gentile/non-Jew friendly, and Pharisaical hostile. So Saul , the Pharisaical Jew, former killer of Christians , went about to turn this potentially dangerous messianism outward and away from Jewry by negating the requirement(s) to have first been a Jew (convert or not), be circumcised and keep dietary laws. These three things alone would cause Jews to turn away from it.

Was it only Paul that stated whatever it was along the line of "there is neither Jew nor Greek"? Or is it written that Jesus himself stated this as well? If Jesus (actually) stated this it could blow my theory out of the water... because that part added on to those others would be the nail in the coffin as to what Saul/Paul's intention was.

Odds are Paul wasn't actually a Pharisee.

[Menassa]

Taught them that salvation is of the Jews?

What does that mean?

Probably something about normative Judaism being correct up until Jesus's death.

[Menassa]

Taught them that salvation is of the Jews?

a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

[Grimmsland]

Jesus interacted with outsiders numerous times, like when he healed the Roman centurion's servant or when he spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well.

"Salvation is of the Jews"

"I come only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel..."

Correct.

EDIT: Jesus also called a gentile a dog. Let me find the verse....

Matthew 15:21-28

Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.”

“Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.”
[^^ that reminds me of the 10 non-Jews hanging onto the cloak of one Jew .. or something like that. In reference to Noachidism]

Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

(This story is also related in Mark 7:24-30.)

[Grimmsland]

I have my own theory about Saul/Paul (I've yet to read it elsewhere, in this take)

That he either upon his own volition or not went about on a mission to protect .. to preserve Judaism/Jewry. Jesus' form of messianism was Rome friendly-Caesar friendly-State friendly , even if not (yet) gentile/non-Jew friendly, and Pharisaical hostile. So Saul , the Pharisaical Jew, former killer of Christians , went about to turn this potentially dangerous messianism outward and away from Jewry by negating the requirement(s) to have first been a Jew (convert or not), be circumcised and keep dietary laws. These three things alone would cause Jews to turn away from it.

Was it only Paul that stated whatever it was along the line of "there is neither Jew nor Greek"? Or is it written that Jesus himself stated this as well? If Jesus (actually) stated this it could blow my theory out of the water... because that part added on to those others would be the nail in the coffin as to what Saul/Paul's intention was.

Odds are Paul wasn't actually a Pharisee.

How many different kinds were there? He wouldn't had been an Essene .. they were Gnostic. He wouldn't had been a Saducee .. they were already friendly with Rome. What do you think of my theory? He didn't even know Jesus. He came about later claiming to have had a revelation on the road. Was it him that stated the "neither Jew nor Greek" ? Can I search a bible exactly down to key word phrases?

[Menassa]

Odds are Paul wasn't actually a Pharisee.

How many different kinds were there? He wouldn't had been an Essene .. they were Gnostic. He wouldn't had been a Saducee .. they were already friendly with Rome. What do you think of my theory? He didn't even know Jesus. He came about later claiming to have had a revelation on the road. Was it him that stated the "neither Jew nor Greek" ? Can I search a bible exactly down to key word phrases?

4 principle sects and untold divisions.

Pharisees
Sadducees
Essenes
Zealots

Odds are Paul was some sort of Hellenized-Jew as evidence of his birthplace and willingness to work with the high-priest. Pharisees weren't very interested in killing Christians. He indeed called himself a Pharisee as a reverse-ad hominem.

[Menassa]

[^^ that reminds me of the 10 non-Jews hanging onto the cloak of one Jew .. or something like that. In reference to Noachidism]

[...]

Zechariah 8:23 is a reference to the end times.

[Grimmsland]

[^^ that reminds me of the 10 non-Jews hanging onto the cloak of one Jew .. or something like that. In reference to Noachidism]

[...]

Zechariah 8:23 is a reference to the end times.

He wouldn't have to be a Pharisee to want to protect Jewry. Maybe he was a Zealot! He sure had zeal.

Henry Abramson (posts talks on YouTube) thinks Paul was possibly a Hellenised Jew too, iirc.

[Menassa]

Zechariah 8:23 is a reference to the end times.

He wouldn't have to be a Pharisee to want to protect Jewry. Maybe he was a Zealot! He sure had zeal.

Henry Abramson (posts talks on YouTube) thinks Paul was possibly a Hellenised Jew too, iirc.

I think a more likely alternative would be his desire to make his 'religion' accessible to as many people as possible as the Jews were having none of it.

It's hard to believe a man who calls himself a Pharisee then acts nothing like one and admits to changing his MO if it works in his favor...

[Prydania]

I like jesus, nice Jewish boy, preached Judaism to Jews. He had nothing to do with outsiders.

That seems rather xenophobic and chauvinistic.

He was a rabbi. Rabbis tend to only preach to Jews. You usually don't see very many rabbis in a Christian church.

[Menassa]

That seems rather xenophobic and chauvinistic.

He was a rabbi. Rabbis tend to only preach to Jews. You usually don't see very many rabbis in a Christian church.

'Rabbi"

[Thermodolia]

What daleel (evidence) do they have to say that?

It's a common myth, you can be buried in a Jewish cemetery if you have tattoos. I don't think Jewish cemeteries would turn away Holocaust survivors...

Yes but Holocaust survivors had no choice about the tattoo so I’d consider them exempt. Granted I’ve only seen very extreme groups bar people who have tattoos from burial.

[Thermodolia]

He was a rabbi. Rabbis tend to only preach to Jews. You usually don't see very many rabbis in a Christian church.

'Rabbi"

I’m with Menassa on this. Jesus was not in anyway a rabbi.

[Menassa]

'Rabbi"

I’m with Menassa on this. Jesus was not in anyway a rabbi.

Really depends on your definition.

It's a common myth, you can be buried in a Jewish cemetery if you have tattoos. I don't think Jewish cemeteries would turn away Holocaust survivors...

Yes but Holocaust survivors had no choice about the tattoo so I’d consider them exempt. Granted I’ve only seen very extreme groups bar people who have tattoos from burial.

I don't think any Jew has been barred from a proper burial because they have a tattoo.

[Ethel mermania]

I’m with Menassa on this. Jesus was not in anyway a rabbi.

Really depends on your definition.

Yes but Holocaust survivors had no choice about the tattoo so I’d consider them exempt. Granted I’ve only seen very extreme groups bar people who have tattoos from burial.

I don't think any Jew has been barred from a proper burial because they have a tattoo.

I remember being told otherwise growing up, and the holocaust survivors were the reason it was changed, but the looking around I did had nothing to verify my memory.

[Ethel mermania]

On the topic of kosher meat.product, the local jew paper had an op-ed.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/chews-t ... ng-kosher/

[Jolthig]

What is your take on Messianic Judaism? I'm having a discussion with some possible Messianic Jews on another forum

[Menassa]

What is your take on Messianic Judaism? I'm having a discussion with some possible Messianic Jews on another forum

Terrible, take a lap.

[Rhodevus]

What is your take on Messianic Judaism? I'm having a discussion with some possible Messianic Jews on another forum

Messianic Jews are Christians. Simple as that. I have nothing against people of a different religion. If Jewish traditions mixed with Christian religion is what Messianic Jews like, then have fun with it. Who am I to tell you that your beliefs are wrong? What I hate is when they say that they are Jewish or they try to convert Jews.

[Menassa]

What is your take on Messianic Judaism? I'm having a discussion with some possible Messianic Jews on another forum

Messianic Jews are Christians. Simple as that. I have nothing against people of a different religion. If Jewish traditions mixed with Christian religion is what Messianic Jews like, then have fun with it. Who am I to tell you that your beliefs are wrong? What I hate is when they say that they are Jewish or they try to convert Jews.

I mean, Messianic and Christian are literally synonyms.

[Rhodevus]

Messianic Jews are Christians. Simple as that. I have nothing against people of a different religion. If Jewish traditions mixed with Christian religion is what Messianic Jews like, then have fun with it. Who am I to tell you that your beliefs are wrong? What I hate is when they say that they are Jewish or they try to convert Jews.

I mean, Messianic and Christian are literally synonyms.

yes, but it really annoys me when they try to claim to be as Jewish as... well, Jews.

[Menassa]

I mean, Messianic and Christian are literally synonyms.

yes, but it really annoys me when they try to claim to be as Jewish as... well, Jews.

They're often identical to southern baptist Christians, I'm pretty sure that's where they started anyway. About as 'Jewish' as Golden Calf worshipers.

[Rhodevus]

yes, but it really annoys me when they try to claim to be as Jewish as... well, Jews.

They're often identical to southern baptist Christians, I'm pretty sure that's where they started anyway. About as 'Jewish' as Golden Calf worshipers.

Not very many southern baptists where I am, but I get it.