Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ

[Northern Davincia]

I mean, Messianic and Christian are literally synonyms.

yes, but it really annoys me when they try to claim to be as Jewish as... well, Jews.

Aren't they ethnically Jewish?

[Prydania]

yes, but it really annoys me when they try to claim to be as Jewish as... well, Jews.

Aren't they ethnically Jewish?

Well now we’re getting into who is and isn’t a Jew. Which is a question Judaism and Jewish communities wrestle with all the time. I should know from experience.

In the case of Messianic “Jews for Jesus”? The argument is that the foundation of their faith is essentially Christian- after all Christianity holds that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied by Jewish prophets. So if you believe in the holiness of those prophets and also believe that Joshua ben Joseph of Nazereth is the Messiah? That’s essentially Christianity is it not? The only difference between Messianic Jews and Christians is that the former play up the Jewish flavour, compared to other Christian denominations that have downplayed it over the past ~2000 years.

Now the discussion is “does that retention of Jewish flavour make them Jews? Is that willingness to hang onto ethnic traditions enough to qualify them as Jews?”
It’s a tricky question- again, Jewish communities have debated this for thousands of years. And you’re not likely going to get an answer everyone here will agree with.

My opinion? Monotheism is central to Jewish theology. And while you may say that Messianc Judaism is still monotheistic? It still worships someone who wasn’t the Messiah as the Messiah and elevates that person to divine status. Which, in terms of Jewish theology, is profane.

So no. I would say they’re not religiously Jewish. Ethnically Jewish I’m more hesistant, but I’m leaning no there too.

[Ethel mermania]

Aren't they ethnically Jewish?

Well now we’re getting into who is and isn’t a Jew. Which is a question Judaism and Jewish communities wrestle with all the time. I should know from experience.

In the case of Messianic “Jews for Jesus”? The argument is that the foundation of their faith is essentially Christian- after all Christianity holds that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied by Jewish prophets. So if you believe in the holiness of those prophets and also believe that Joshua ben Joseph of Nazereth is the Messiah? That’s essentially Christianity is it not? The only difference between Messianic Jews and Christians is that the former play up the Jewish flavour, compared to other Christian denominations that have downplayed it over the past ~2000 years.

Now the discussion is “does that retention of Jewish flavour make them Jews? Is that willingness to hang onto ethnic traditions enough to qualify them as Jews?”
It’s a tricky question- again, Jewish communities have debated this for thousands of years. And you’re not likely going to get an answer everyone here will agree with.

My opinion? Monotheism is central to Jewish theology. And while you may say that Messianc Judaism is still monotheistic? It still worships someone who wasn’t the Messiah as the Messiah and elevates that person to divine status. Which, in terms of Jewish theology, is profane.

So no. I would say they’re not religiously Jewish. Ethnically Jewish I’m more hesistant, but I’m leaning no there too.

Religiously they are Christian's. The Christians may consider them judiasers, but they are Christian.

If there mother is Jewish, by traditional measures, they are Jewish. If not, and they convert into their xtianity, no.

[Northern Davincia]

Well now we’re getting into who is and isn’t a Jew. Which is a question Judaism and Jewish communities wrestle with all the time. I should know from experience.

In the case of Messianic “Jews for Jesus”? The argument is that the foundation of their faith is essentially Christian- after all Christianity holds that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied by Jewish prophets. So if you believe in the holiness of those prophets and also believe that Joshua ben Joseph of Nazereth is the Messiah? That’s essentially Christianity is it not? The only difference between Messianic Jews and Christians is that the former play up the Jewish flavour, compared to other Christian denominations that have downplayed it over the past ~2000 years.

Now the discussion is “does that retention of Jewish flavour make them Jews? Is that willingness to hang onto ethnic traditions enough to qualify them as Jews?”
It’s a tricky question- again, Jewish communities have debated this for thousands of years. And you’re not likely going to get an answer everyone here will agree with.

My opinion? Monotheism is central to Jewish theology. And while you may say that Messianc Judaism is still monotheistic? It still worships someone who wasn’t the Messiah as the Messiah and elevates that person to divine status. Which, in terms of Jewish theology, is profane.

So no. I would say they’re not religiously Jewish. Ethnically Jewish I’m more hesistant, but I’m leaning no there too.

Religiously they are Christian's. The Christians may consider them judiasers, but they are Christian.

If there mother is Jewish, by traditional measures, they are Jewish. If not, and they convert into their xtianity, no.

Do we consider secular/atheistic Jews as Jews?

[Prydania]

Do we consider secular/atheistic Jews as Jews?

It depends. Some secular/atheistic Jews still hang onto certain religious traditions as a matter of cultural importance. Others want nothing to do with anything that even smells of religion, Jewish or otherwise.

I suspect there’s not clean answer to your question

[Northern Davincia]

Do we consider secular/atheistic Jews as Jews?

It depends. Some secular/atheistic Jews still hang onto certain religious traditions as a matter of cultural importance. Others want nothing to do with anything that even smells of religion, Jewish or otherwise.

I suspect there’s not clean answer to your question

The dual identity of Judaism has always been odd.

[Ethel mermania]

Religiously they are Christian's. The Christians may consider them judiasers, but they are Christian.

If there mother is Jewish, by traditional measures, they are Jewish. If not, and they convert into their xtianity, no.

Do we consider secular/atheistic Jews as Jews?

I had this arguement with messena a few years ago and lost.

If mom is a jew, and they renounce Judaism, they are still jews. If daughter of mom who renounced judiasm has a kid, that kid is a jew.

[Prydania]

It depends. Some secular/atheistic Jews still hang onto certain religious traditions as a matter of cultural importance. Others want nothing to do with anything that even smells of religion, Jewish or otherwise.

I suspect there’s not clean answer to your question

The dual identity of Judaism has always been odd.

It's almost like ethno-religious groups that have roots that pre-date the advent of "universalist" faiths don't fit into neat boxes

[Menassa]

yes, but it really annoys me when they try to claim to be as Jewish as... well, Jews.

Aren't they ethnically Jewish?

As individuals, perhaps, but not as an organization.

Aren't they ethnically Jewish?

Well now we’re getting into who is and isn’t a Jew. Which is a question Judaism and Jewish communities wrestle with all the time. I should know from experience.

In the case of Messianic “Jews for Jesus”? The argument is that the foundation of their faith is essentially Christian- after all Christianity holds that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied by Jewish prophets. So if you believe in the holiness of those prophets and also believe that Joshua ben Joseph of Nazereth is the Messiah? That’s essentially Christianity is it not? The only difference between Messianic Jews and Christians is that the former play up the Jewish flavour, compared to other Christian denominations that have downplayed it over the past ~2000 years.

Now the discussion is “does that retention of Jewish flavour make them Jews? Is that willingness to hang onto ethnic traditions enough to qualify them as Jews?”
It’s a tricky question- again, Jewish communities have debated this for thousands of years. And you’re not likely going to get an answer everyone here will agree with.

My opinion? Monotheism is central to Jewish theology. And while you may say that Messianc Judaism is still monotheistic? It still worships someone who wasn’t the Messiah as the Messiah and elevates that person to divine status. Which, in terms of Jewish theology, is profane.

So no. I would say they’re not religiously Jewish. Ethnically Jewish I’m more hesistant, but I’m leaning no there too.

It's more than just a belief that 'Jesus is the Messiah' Messianic Judaism purports everything Christianity, specifically protestant Christianity upholds and Judaism rejects. Original sin, the Trinity, the divorce between God and the Jewish people etc.

Religiously they are Christian's. The Christians may consider them judiasers, but they are Christian.

If there mother is Jewish, by traditional measures, they are Jewish. If not, and they convert into their xtianity, no.

Do we consider secular/atheistic Jews as Jews?

Individually perhaps, but as an organization atheism is hardly 'Jewish.'

[Prydania]

It's more than just a belief that 'Jesus is the Messiah' Messianic Judaism purports everything Christianity, specifically protestant Christianity upholds and Judaism rejects. Original sin, the Trinity, the divorce between God and the Jewish people etc.

That's to be expected, given the origin of the movement.

[Saiwania]

My decision is as follows: I think I will adopt mild antisemitism in my life. I find that there are more valid reasons to be against Jews than to be for Jews if you're from a Gentile background. This "righteous among nations" crapola is just Jewish attempts to lie to non-Jews that being "nice" towards them confers some special status.

However, Jews should still exist and ideally, most of the world's Jewish population will migrate to Palestine in time. This should be encouraged in my view, because whether the Arabs like it or not; it is still their place of origin so as far as the world can determine. So because of this, that is the one place on Earth where it is most proper for Jews to be.

[Prydania]

My decision is as follows: I think I will adopt mild antisemitism in my life. I find that there are more valid reasons to be against Jews than to be for Jews if you're from a Gentile background.

Why? I've shared this a number of times in this thread, but I'm of mixed heritage. My mother has both British and Scandinavian backgrounds and converted to Judaism when she married my father. Who comes from a Jewish family from Poland. They married, had three great kids (if I may indulge in a bit of egotism), and continue to live a happy life together.
The way you talk it's like you think Jews are out to "get" Gentiles. My family is living proof you're full of crap.

This "righteous among nations" crapola is just Jewish attempts to lie to non-Jews that being "nice" towards them confers some special status.

We can't help it if you automatically assume the worst about every aspect of our faith.

However, Jews should still exist...

How generous.

...and ideally, most of the world's Jewish population will migrate to Palestine in time. This should be encouraged in my view, because whether the Arabs like it or not; it is still their place of origin so as far as the world can determine. So because of this, that is the one place on Earth where it is most proper for Jews to be.

I'm not going to let this thread become another "Israeli-Palestinian Conflict" battleground. No, no, no. Your game is obvious.

Instead I'll ask you this. Why, as a Jew, should I leave for Israel/Palestine/the Holy Land/whatever you want to call it? Why?
My mother's family has been in Canada since the War of 1812. My father's family? They immigrated out of Poland to Canada in the early 20th century. My grandather and father were both born in Canada, despite coming from Eastern European Jewish immigrant roots.

And then I came along, born and raised in small-town Ontario. In one of the only houses in town that had a menorah come the winter holidays.

So why, given my family's roots in Canada, should I have to leave and move to Palestine (a place where I have never even visited, much less lived in before) just to satisfy your own perverse sense of ethnic nationalism and unwarranted paranoia about my Jewish heritage?
Now I think you're going to say "well you're mixed race, if you assimilate you can just stay in Canada thanks to your mom's side of the family."
Of course this ignores two things. First, I don't need to assimilate. I was born and raised in Canada. If you bumped into me on the street and talked to me? You'd think I was just some Canadian guy.
Secondly, my father's family escaped pogroms in Russia-occupied Poland to make new lives in Canada. And that they did. They started a business, put their kids through college. Hell, my paternal grandfather was even knighted by the Governor General of Canada on behalf of the Queen for his contributions to Canadian medicine. Despite coming from an immigrant Jewish background? They worked hard to make new lives for themselves and contribute to the new country they called home.

And now you want to disregard all of that, and many, many, many more similar stories just because you'd feel less paranoid if Jewish people were off in Palestine.

Get bent.

[Rhodevus]

My decision is as follows: I think I will adopt mild antisemitism in my life. I find that there are more valid reasons to be against Jews than to be for Jews if you're from a Gentile background. This "righteous among nations" crapola is just Jewish attempts to lie to non-Jews that being "nice" towards them confers some special status.

However, Jews should still exist and ideally, most of the world's Jewish population will migrate to Palestine in time. This should be encouraged in my view, because whether the Arabs like it or not; it is still their place of origin so as far as the world can determine. So because of this, that is the one place on Earth where it is most proper for Jews to be.

My decision is as follows: I think I will adopt mid racism in my life. I find there are more valid reasons to be against ____ (insert ethnic/religious group here) than to be for ____ (insert ethnic/religious group here) if you're from a Gentile background. This "group of people being different than me" crapola is just ____ (insert ethnic/religious group here) attempts to lie to non-____ (insert ethnic/religious group here) that being "nice" towards them confers some special status.

wow. How brave of you. I am going to guess you have never heard of an award given to people from other countries before. You know, for valuable service in the protection of human life? I am also going to guess that you have never heard about people that were awarded the "righteous among the nations" title. It doesn't give them special status for being nice to Jews. It gives them special status for helping save the lives of persecuted people.

But, in good faith, I would like to here at least one reason why it is "more valid to be against Jews than to be for Jews". Is it because we didn't convert to Christianity? No, that's why multiple groups were persecuted in the middle ages. I like to think we've grown as a species since then.

Is it because we (let's go full stereotype for this one), have large foreheads and big noses, which makes us different? Maybe our look is evil/punishment? No, wait... blaming people for how they look or their intelligence was what people did to Africans to show how slavery was okay.

It is because we are all immigrants? No, that can't be. There are way for immigrants of other religions and cultures than just Jews. And many Jews aren't first generation immigrants.

Is it because we all have allegiance to more than the mother/father-land, where we live? For one, no. Many don't. And people all over the world have dual and triple citizenship, so that can't be the reason.

Is it because Jews believe that we are the chosen people? And you don't like that? No wait... we were chosen to be the spiritual people, meaning we have more rules placed on top of us (interpretations change. I'm going with the one I was taught in school). And Christians, Muslims, etc. all believe they are the chosen people, so what makes Jews any different?

ummm... I'm really grasping for straws here. I understand if you met a Jew who bullied you and you hate him for it. We're all people. Nobody is exactly the same. There are bullies and jerks and criminals from every religion and culture and ethnic group. Just because one is bad, doesn't mean the entire people are bad. What if everyone thought all Christians were evil just because they were Christian? What about Muslims? (oh, wait...)

But still, I would like to here a reason that can only apply to Jews as a whole that isn't a straw-man argument or an argument that can be placed onto literally any other religion/group and have the argument still stand.

[Grimmsland]

"Mild antisemitism" can help prevent the dreaded assimilation that so many worry about.. so what's the problem. He's not against Israel existing.. so why care? Meh.

[Grimmsland]

I bet if you had a choice of dealing with him versus some of my in-laws (protestant Jewdolitars, who want to love you to death) you'd choose him.

[Prydania]

I bet if you had a choice of dealing with him versus some of my in-laws (protestant Jewdolitars, who want to love you to death) you'd choose him.

I don’t know your in-laws or what they’re all about, but I prefer people who don’t have me for
arbitrary reasons then people who do.

"Mild antisemitism" can help prevent the dreaded assimilation that so many worry about.. so what's the problem. He's not against Israel existing.. so why care? Meh.

What “assimilation”? My father’s family has been “assimilated” and yet still Jewish since my grandfather’s generation.
I would rather not have people hate me for arbitrary reasons, even if it’s only “mild” hatred.

Get that dogwhistle bs out of here.

[Grimmsland]

I bet if you had a choice of dealing with him versus some of my in-laws (protestant Jewdolitars, who want to love you to death) you'd choose him.

I don’t know your in-laws or what they’re all about, but I prefer people who don’t have me for
arbitrary reasons then people who do.

"Mild antisemitism" can help prevent the dreaded assimilation that so many worry about.. so what's the problem. He's not against Israel existing.. so why care? Meh.

What “assimilation”? My father’s family has been “assimilated” and yet still Jewish since my grandfather’s generation.
I would rather not have people hate me for arbitrary reasons, even if it’s only “mild” hatred.

Get that dogwhistle bs out of here.

how is dislike "hate" ... ? Do you like everybody? Why is it okay to dislike some and not others? Disliking someone isn't even despising them, much less hating them. Hate is a very strong term and people throw that term around very liberally. They've either never experienced hate or they're projecting their feeling onto others. Same with "love" .. very strong term and people throw it around at any and everything essentially rendering it meaningless. Sentimentality is not love. Disliking is not hate.

[Thermodolia]

My decision is as follows: I think I will adopt mild antisemitism in my life. I find that there are more valid reasons to be against Jews than to be for Jews if you're from a Gentile background. This "righteous among nations" crapola is just Jewish attempts to lie to non-Jews that being "nice" towards them confers some special status.

However, Jews should still exist and ideally, most of the world's Jewish population will migrate to Palestine in time. This should be encouraged in my view, because whether the Arabs like it or not; it is still their place of origin so as far as the world can determine. So because of this, that is the one place on Earth where it is most proper for Jews to be.

My decision is as follows: I think I will adopt mid racism in my life. I find there are more valid reasons to be against ____ (insert ethnic/religious group here) than to be for ____ (insert ethnic/religious group here) if you're from a Gentile background. This "group of people being different than me" crapola is just ____ (insert ethnic/religious group here) attempts to lie to non-____ (insert ethnic/religious group here) that being "nice" towards them confers some special status.

wow. How brave of you. I am going to guess you have never heard of an award given to people from other countries before. You know, for valuable service in the protection of human life? I am also going to guess that you have never heard about people that were awarded the "righteous among the nations" title. It doesn't give them special status for being nice to Jews. It gives them special status for helping save the lives of persecuted people.

But, in good faith, I would like to here at least one reason why it is "more valid to be against Jews than to be for Jews". Is it because we didn't convert to Christianity? No, that's why multiple groups were persecuted in the middle ages. I like to think we've grown as a species since then.

Is it because we (let's go full stereotype for this one), have large foreheads and big noses, which makes us different? Maybe our look is evil/punishment? No, wait... blaming people for how they look or their intelligence was what people did to Africans to show how slavery was okay.

It is because we are all immigrants? No, that can't be. There are way for immigrants of other religions and cultures than just Jews. And many Jews aren't first generation immigrants.

Is it because we all have allegiance to more than the mother/father-land, where we live? For one, no. Many don't. And people all over the world have dual and triple citizenship, so that can't be the reason.

Is it because Jews believe that we are the chosen people? And you don't like that? No wait... we were chosen to be the spiritual people, meaning we have more rules placed on top of us (interpretations change. I'm going with the one I was taught in school). And Christians, Muslims, etc. all believe they are the chosen people, so what makes Jews any different?

ummm... I'm really grasping for straws here. I understand if you met a Jew who bullied you and you hate him for it. We're all people. Nobody is exactly the same. There are bullies and jerks and criminals from every religion and culture and ethnic group. Just because one is bad, doesn't mean the entire people are bad. What if everyone thought all Christians were evil just because they were Christian? What about Muslims? (oh, wait...)

But still, I would like to here a reason that can only apply to Jews as a whole that isn't a straw-man argument or an argument that can be placed onto literally any other religion/group and have the argument still stand.

Don’t waste your time or words on him. He’s a known white supremacist who’s said that he wants non-whites to leave the US.

[Reikoku]

What's the role of animal sacrifice in Judaism? As someone who was raised Baptist, I was always taught that it was just a way to remove sins until Jesus came and died on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice. But considering the massive theological differences between Protestantism and Judaism, I feel pretty certain that's not the case.

[Prydania]

I don’t know your in-laws or what they’re all about, but I prefer people who don’t have me for
arbitrary reasons then people who do.


What “assimilation”? My father’s family has been “assimilated” and yet still Jewish since my grandfather’s generation.
I would rather not have people hate me for arbitrary reasons, even if it’s only “mild” hatred.

Get that dogwhistle bs out of here.

how is dislike "hate" ... ? Do you like everybody? Why is it okay to dislike some and not others? Disliking someone isn't even despising them, much less hating them. Hate is a very strong term and people throw that term around very liberally. They've either never experienced hate or they're projecting their feeling onto others. Same with "love" .. very strong term and people throw it around at any and everything essentially rendering it meaningless. Sentimentality is not love. Disliking is not hate.

Well two things. The first is that antisemitism is understood to mean “hate” not “dislike.”
Secondly? While there are people I dislike? I don’t dislike them for reasons related to race or religion. I have enough respect to dislike them for more substantial reasons.
So yeah. If someone “dislikes” me because of my race or religion? They can get bent.

I’m also still chuckling at your inane “assimilation” bs.

What's the role of animal sacrifice in Judaism? As someone who was raised Baptist, I was always taught that it was just a way to remove sins until Jesus came and died on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice. But considering the massive theological differences between Protestantism and Judaism, I feel pretty certain that's not the case.

Judaism holds that animal sacrifice shouldn’t take place until the Temple is restored (if I remember my religious schooling correctly).
The role of offerings was to pray for peace or to thank G-d for good fortune.

[Menassa]

What's the role of animal sacrifice in Judaism? As someone who was raised Baptist, I was always taught that it was just a way to remove sins until Jesus came and died on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice. But considering the massive theological differences between Protestantism and Judaism, I feel pretty certain that's not the case.

Fascinating question.

https://outreachjudaism.org/jesus-death-atone-for-sin/

Most of the sacrifices you'll read about in the Bible are actually for holy days or thanksgiving offerings. A very small portion was used to clear unintentional sin as sort of a lesson. If a sin were intentional, then only a contrite heart could absolve it, not the blood of any animal no matter the number. Additionally, every sacrifice required a contrite heart in order to be effective and of the ways of atonement, was the least.

Furthermore, we are only allowed to sacrifice in the place of God's choosing i.e. the Temple (Deuteronomy 12:5-8). Now, given that there is no temple, how shall we sacrifice? Hosea answers "So will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips" (14:2). Therefore, in today's day and age, prayer replaces the small amount of sacrifices that were required to cover unintentional sin.

What's the role of animal sacrifice in Judaism? As someone who was raised Baptist, I was always taught that it was just a way to remove sins until Jesus came and died on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice. But considering the massive theological differences between Protestantism and Judaism, I feel pretty certain that's not the case.

Judaism holds that animal sacrifice shouldn’t take place until the Temple is restored (if I remember my religious schooling correctly).
The role of offerings was to pray for peace or to thank G-d for good fortune.

Your first assertion is correct, as we are only commanded to sacrifice in the Temple (Deuteronomy 12:5-8) we must await its return, may it come speedily in our days amen.

[Auristania]

Well now we’re getting into who is and isn’t a Jew. Which is a question Judaism and Jewish communities wrestle with all the time. I should know from experience.

In the case of Messianic “Jews for Jesus”? The argument is that the foundation of their faith is essentially Christian- after all Christianity holds that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied by Jewish prophets. So if you believe in the holiness of those prophets and also believe that Joshua ben Joseph of Nazereth is the Messiah? That’s essentially Christianity is it not? The only difference between Messianic Jews and Christians is that the former play up the Jewish flavour, compared to other Christian denominations that have downplayed it over the past ~2000 years.

Now the discussion is “does that retention of Jewish flavour make them Jews? Is that willingness to hang onto ethnic traditions enough to qualify them as Jews?”
It’s a tricky question- again, Jewish communities have debated this for thousands of years. And you’re not likely going to get an answer everyone here will agree with.

My opinion? Monotheism is central to Jewish theology. And while you may say that Messianc Judaism is still monotheistic? It still worships someone who wasn’t the Messiah as the Messiah and elevates that person to divine status. Which, in terms of Jewish theology, is profane.

So no. I would say they’re not religiously Jewish. Ethnically Jewish I’m more hesistant, but I’m leaning no there too.

Religiously they are Christian's. The Christians may consider them judiasers, but they are Christian.

If there mother is Jewish, by traditional measures, they are Jewish. If not, and they convert into their xtianity, no.

Ethel, a couple of years back, you said if someone converts to Judaism and later converts to yet another religion, then they are still a Jew. I was surprised at this, but everyone agreed with you.

[Ethel mermania]

Religiously they are Christian's. The Christians may consider them judiasers, but they are Christian.

If there mother is Jewish, by traditional measures, they are Jewish. If not, and they convert into their xtianity, no.

Ethel, a couple of years back, you said if someone converts to Judaism and later converts to yet another religion, then they are still a Jew. I was surprised at this, but everyone agreed with you.

I learned it from menessa. I thought if you renounced judiasm, that's it your done, apparently not.

[Auristania]

Is this guy for real? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeeA_Abd5Nk
He cites Medieval rabbis saying the Holy Name YHWH really was pronounced Yehovah not Yahweh or anything.

Until I saw this video, my prefered pronunciation was based on the Aramaic word YHWH = he is, therefore it would either be the Hiph'il - HE causes to be or the Pi'el HE super-dooper IS

[Menassa]

Is this guy for real? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeeA_Abd5Nk
He cites Medieval rabbis saying the Holy Name YHWH really was pronounced Yehovah not Yahweh or anything.

Until I saw this video, my prefered pronunciation was based on the Aramaic word YHWH = he is, therefore it would either be the Hiph'il - HE causes to be or the Pi'el HE super-dooper IS

http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm