American Exceptionalism and History Class

[The New Sea Territory]

There is nothing exceptional about America, besides it's incarceration rates.

[The New Sea Territory]

Oh, so I suppose you also don't mind if I teach that the USSR had some of the hightest GDP growth of all time, doubled the life-expectancy, eliminated illiteracy in 20 years, and conveniently leave out all the sacrifices it made to do so?

You can teach that. I just don't want the promotion of communism in schools.

The school system does not and never has supported communism, nor will it ever.

[Big Jim P]

I am a Patriot, and I will say this: To refuse to look at the dark parts of Americas past is an incredibly unpatriotic disservice to this nation and it's people.

[Scomagia]

Considering you call everything you don't like "fascist" or "nazi", no, no you aren't.

I love history.

You may well love history. Whether or not you understand it, however, is the point being made. Considering how you refer to things that you don't like as "fascist", I'd say you don't understand history well at all.

[Scomagia]

Oh good someone said it. I didn't want to unnecessarily hostile, but American exceptionalism really is horseshit.

I dunnow. Seems rather sensible to have gotten the hell away from Europe's fuckery ASAP.

Had that been able to happen in other regions of the globe, the amount of shittiness in history would've gone down rather heavily, most likely and there'd be a greater chance we'd have seen [insert former colony] exceptionalism rise from the ashes.

To answer the OP, I'm not a fan of these programs. However, there is a value in making sure students understand how to actually compare and contrast systems so they realize the value of 'traditional' Western freedoms as opposed to leaving them with laundry lists of where things went wrong because those freedoms weren't applied on racial or other false justification.

None of that indicates exceptionalism of any kind.

[Scomagia]

You can teach that. I just don't want the promotion of communism in schools.

The school system does not and never has supported communism, nor will it ever.

Neither should it support Capitalism.

[United Provinces of Atlantica]

This is ridiculous. There shouldn't be brainwashing or blind nationalism, this is the kind of thing that leads to Totalitarianism, particularly Fascism.

There is nothing exceptional about America, besides it's incarceration rates.

This.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I dunnow. Seems rather sensible to have gotten the hell away from Europe's fuckery ASAP.

Had that been able to happen in other regions of the globe, the amount of shittiness in history would've gone down rather heavily, most likely and there'd be a greater chance we'd have seen [insert former colony] exceptionalism rise from the ashes.

To answer the OP, I'm not a fan of these programs. However, there is a value in making sure students understand how to actually compare and contrast systems so they realize the value of 'traditional' Western freedoms as opposed to leaving them with laundry lists of where things went wrong because those freedoms weren't applied on racial or other false justification.

None of that indicates exceptionalism of any kind.

On the contrary, actually. It does so by definition. Judging by the number of colonies which successfully declared independence from their mother countries in the same timeframe, the US was quite exceptional.

Had it been more widespread around the world it may have been better, was what I was suggesting. Such would have seen more exceptionalism be possible in India or Africa or other colonial states dominated by the imperial powers were they able to successfully remove themselves from those states in similarly positive circumstances as the States managed to do so.

[The House of Xavier]

We have to be careful about anti-Americanism and anti-Traditionalism in our schools and society (those who want to take "Under God" out of our pledge, for example). Educating kids on patriotism and citizenship is a good idea. Those who love their country are the best citizens of said country, as they will work hard to make it even better.

To a very large extent I agree. America is exceptional. But it's also flawed. And we have to know our history so that we do not make the same mistakes again.

[United States of The One Percent]

Judging by the number of colonies which successfully declared independence from their mother countries in the same timeframe, the US was quite exceptional.

Sorta depends on what you take to be the timeframe. Haiti won independence from France in 1804, the nations of Latin America from Spain and Portugal between 1810 and 1825, Belgium from the Netherlands in 1840.

[The House of Xavier]

Judging by the number of colonies which successfully declared independence from their mother countries in the same timeframe, the US was quite exceptional.

Sorta depends on what you take to be the timeframe. Haiti won independence from France in 1804, the nations of Latin America from Spain and Portugal between 1810 and 1825, Belgium from the Netherlands in 1840.

And they all did so... so... well....

[United States of The One Percent]

We have to be careful about anti-Americanism and anti-Traditionalism in our schools and society (those who want to take "Under God" out of our pledge, for example). Educating kids on patriotism and citizenship is a good idea. Those who love their country are the best citizens of said country, as they will work hard to make it even better.

"Under God" was not part of the original Pledge. It was added in the 1950s by anti-Traditionalist and arguably anti-American McCarthyites. I would support restoring the original wording.

As for loving one's country, here's some food for thought for you:

The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus, etc. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgement or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw or a lump of dirt. They have the same sort of worth only as horses and dogs. Yet such as these even are commonly esteemed good citizens. Others--as most legislators, politicians, lawyers, ministers, and office-holders--serve the state chiefly with their heads; and, as the rarely make any moral distinctions, they are as likely to serve the devil, without intending it, as God. A very few--as heroes, patriots, martyrs, reformers in the great sense, and men--serve the state with their consciences also, and so necessarily resist it for the most part; and they are commonly treated as enemies by it.

To a very large extent I agree. America is exceptional. But it's also flawed. And we have to know our history so that we do not make the same mistakes again.

The mistakes we have been making since at least the declaration of war against Mexico in the 1840s and most recently made yesterday you mean? Good luck with that.

[United States of The One Percent]

Sorta depends on what you take to be the timeframe. Haiti won independence from France in 1804, the nations of Latin America from Spain and Portugal between 1810 and 1825, Belgium from the Netherlands in 1840.

And they all did so... so... well....

Pretty well considering the number of times they were invaded, bombed and oppressed by that great exceptional state to their immediate north I would have to say.

[The House of Xavier]

To a very large extent I agree. America is exceptional. But it's also flawed. And we have to know our history so that we do not make the same mistakes again.

The mistakes we have been making since at least the declaration of war against Mexico in the 1840s and most recently made yesterday you mean? Good luck with that.

The only mistake with the Mexican war is that we didn't take the whole goddamn thing.

Every nation is with sin. Every single one. So don't single out the US with its flaws, because it has done a lot of good as well.

[The House of Xavier]

And they all did so... so... well....

Pretty well considering the number of times they were invaded, bombed and oppressed by that great exceptional state to their immediate north I would have to say.

Ah, yes. The great invasion of Haiti of 1829. I forgot that happened. And then we island hopped to a continent: South America and invaded and bombed every country there in the 19th century with our Da Vinci flying acessomething vagina.

Honestly, every country there had immediate problems that resulted in further instability. Sometimes we intervened because that affected us directly. Sometimes we didn't.

[United States of The One Percent]

The only mistake with the Mexican war is that we didn't take the whole goddamn thing.

We couldn't; and Pershing got the U.S.'s ass kicked again in 1917 and had to go crying home to his mommy.

...don't single out the US with its flaws, because it has done a lot of good as well.

I single out my nation for its rank hypocrisy. When Russia took Crimea at least it didn't pretend it was doing Ukraine a favor or that international law was on its side.

[Alien Space Bats]

We have to be careful about anti-Americanism and anti-Traditionalism in our schools and society (those who want to take "Under God" out of our pledge, for example).

How can having the words "under God" in the Pledge be considered "traditional" when that phrase wasn't actually PART of the Pledge until 1954?

Hell, the Pledge itself wasn't WRITTEN until 1892, nor was it formally adopted AS the "Nation's" Pledge until 1942. Considering how much American history predates the Pledge itself, I'm not sure ANYTHING about it can be considered "traditional".

<ninja'ed, but still worth repeating>

[The House of Xavier]

The only mistake with the Mexican war is that we didn't take the whole goddamn thing.

We couldn't; and Pershing got the U.S.'s ass kicked again in 1917 and had to go crying home to his mommy.

Actually, we could have. That's what Polk originally wanted, his negotiator kinda went rogue.

As to Pershing... wait what? He found Villa, defeated his forces, and Villa ran away. I dunno of his mom was alive, so he probably didn't do that...

...don't single out the US with its flaws, because it has done a lot of good as well.

I single out my nation for its rank hypocrisy. When Russia took Crimea at least it didn't pretend it was doing Ukraine a favor or that international law was on its side.[/quote]

What are you talking about? Russia cited historical connections with Crimea, the Russian language and people there, and made numerous bullshit arguments. Were you even listening to what Russia and Putin were saying?

[Occupied Deutschland]

We have to be careful about anti-Americanism and anti-Traditionalism in our schools and society (those who want to take "Under God" out of our pledge, for example).

How can having the words "under God" in the Pledge be considered "traditional" when that phrase wasn't actually PART of the Pledge until 1954?

Hell, what about the pledge itself which wasn't around until the end of the 19th century and was written by a socialist?

There's something rotten in Denmark appeals to historical values of 'traditionalism' and 'Americanism'.

Edit: And it seems this was mentioned...multiple times previously.
Well then...Balls.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

How can having the words "under God" in the Pledge be considered "traditional" when that phrase wasn't actually PART of the Pledge until 1954?

Hell, what about the pledge itself which wasn't around until the end of the 19th century and was written by a socialist?

There's something rotten in Denmark appeals to historical values of 'traditionalism' and 'Americanism'.

You should see how often that is the appeal being made to justify terrible things.

[Ainin]

American history should be taught in an unbiased manner. Both the good and the bad should make it into the history books. American Exceptionalism is extremely silly.

Why? We are an exceptional country.

According to who?

[United States of The One Percent]

Ah, yes. The great invasion of Haiti of 1829. I forgot that happened. And then we island hopped to a continent: South America and invaded and bombed every country there in the 19th century with our Da Vinci flying acessomething vagina.

Honestly, every country there had immediate problems that resulted in further instability. Sometimes we intervened because that affected us directly. Sometimes we didn't.

Here's a list to refresh your memory. Speaking from study and personal contact, I'd have to say the Latin American view of U.S. involvement in the region is distinctly different from yours. Apologies for the all caps.

ARGENTINA 1890
CHILE 1891
HAITI 1891
NICARAGUA 1894
PANAMA 1895
NICARAGUA 1896
CUBA 1898-1902 (-?)
PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?)
NICARAGUA 1898
NICARAGUA 1899
PANAMA 1901-14
HONDURAS 1903
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04
CUBA 1906-09
NICARAGUA 1907
HONDURAS 1907
PANAMA 1908
NICARAGUA 1910
HONDURAS 1911
CUBA 1912
PANAMA 1912
HONDURAS 1912
NICARAGUA 1912-33
MEXICO 1913
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914
MEXICO 1914-18
HAITI 1914-34
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24
CUBA 1917-33
PANAMA 1918-20
HONDURAS 1919
GUATEMALA 1920
MEXICO 1923
HONDURAS 1923
PANAMA 1925
EL SALVADOR 1932
URUGUAY 1947
GUATEMALA 1954
PANAMA 1958
CUBA l961
CUBA  l962
PANAMA l964
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66
GUATEMALA l966-67
CHILE 1973
EL SALVADOR l981-92
NICARAGUA l981-90
GRENADA l983-84
HONDURAS l983-89
BOLIVIA 1986
PANAMA 1989 (-?)
HAITI 1994

[The House of Xavier]

Ah, yes. The great invasion of Haiti of 1829. I forgot that happened. And then we island hopped to a continent: South America and invaded and bombed every country there in the 19th century with our Da Vinci flying acessomething vagina.

Honestly, every country there had immediate problems that resulted in further instability. Sometimes we intervened because that affected us directly. Sometimes we didn't.

Here's a list to refresh your memory. Speaking from study and personal contact, I'd have to say the Latin American view of U.S. involvement in the region is distinctly different from yours. Apologies for the all caps.

ARGENTINA 1890
CHILE 1891
HAITI 1891
NICARAGUA 1894
PANAMA 1895
NICARAGUA 1896
CUBA 1898-1902 (-?)
PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?)
NICARAGUA 1898
NICARAGUA 1899
PANAMA 1901-14
HONDURAS 1903
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04
CUBA 1906-09
NICARAGUA 1907
HONDURAS 1907
PANAMA 1908
NICARAGUA 1910
HONDURAS 1911
CUBA 1912
PANAMA 1912
HONDURAS 1912
NICARAGUA 1912-33
MEXICO 1913
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914
MEXICO 1914-18
HAITI 1914-34
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24
CUBA 1917-33
PANAMA 1918-20
HONDURAS 1919
GUATEMALA 1920
MEXICO 1923
HONDURAS 1923
PANAMA 1925
EL SALVADOR 1932
URUGUAY 1947
GUATEMALA 1954
PANAMA 1958
CUBA l961
CUBA  l962
PANAMA l964
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66
GUATEMALA l966-67
CHILE 1973
EL SALVADOR l981-92
NICARAGUA l981-90
GRENADA l983-84
HONDURAS l983-89
BOLIVIA 1986
PANAMA 1989 (-?)
HAITI 1994

Look, I never said we didn't intervene in Latin America, though it's only natural that one regional power intervenes, ya know, in its own region. But many of our interventions were decades after those nations had revolutions. Yet, in most cases, they sort of spun and didn't work out well (usually after the 'hero' died).

And in many of those cases, the interventions were necessary and did some good for ourselves and for the people there.

[United States of The One Percent]

Ah, yes. The great invasion of Haiti of 1829. I forgot that happened. And then we island hopped to a continent: South America and invaded and bombed every country there in the 19th century with our Da Vinci flying acessomething vagina.

<snip>

Look, I never said we didn't intervene in Latin America...

No, you just ridiculed the idea and then denied that you did. You do yourself no credit with that kind of behavior.

[The House of Xavier]

Ah, yes. The great invasion of Haiti of 1829. I forgot that happened. And then we island hopped to a continent: South America and invaded and bombed every country there in the 19th century with our Da Vinci flying acessomething vagina.

<snip>

Look, I never said we didn't intervene in Latin America...

No, you just ridiculed the idea and then denied that you did. You do yourself no credit with that kind of behavior.

No, that's not what I did at all. I out masterdebated you. I accept your apology/surrender.