Nuremburg Trials: Flawed or International Success?

[United Marxist Nations]

snip

Did you miss the part where I said 'on the same scale as the Nazis'? I'm not denying that the Americans and British committed war crimes, but they certainly did not lead millions to extermination camps.

And they were also essentially fighting a completely different war. The War in the East and the War in the West were two completely different things. You have to remember that when the Nazis invaded the USSR, their enemy wasn't the USSR, their enemy was the people living in the USSR. It was a struggle of such massive scale that of course war crimes committed by the Allied armies on that front were larger than those an the other fronts. And even by that logic, the USSR didn't set up extermination camps for tens of millions of people.

And I know you're going to say "but teh gulag!", and it's bullshit:

[Oceanic Vakiadia]

Did you miss the part where I said 'on the same scale as the Nazis'? I'm not denying that the Americans and British committed war crimes, but they certainly did not lead millions to extermination camps.

And they were also essentially fighting a completely different war. The War in the East and the War in the West were two completely different things. You have to remember that when the Nazis invaded the USSR, their enemy wasn't the USSR, their enemy was the people living in the USSR. It was a struggle of such massive scale that of course war crimes committed by the Allied armies on that front were larger than those an the other fronts. And even by that logic, the USSR didn't set up extermination camps for tens of millions of people.

And I know you're going to say "but teh gulag!", and it's bullshit:

Different circumstances don't make one's hands any less bloody. And yes, the Nazis outclassed the USSR at sending people to die in camps. I'd still say roughly 1.6 million people from 1929 to 1953 is an amount that can't be ignored.

[United Marxist Nations]

And they were also essentially fighting a completely different war. The War in the East and the War in the West were two completely different things. You have to remember that when the Nazis invaded the USSR, their enemy wasn't the USSR, their enemy was the people living in the USSR. It was a struggle of such massive scale that of course war crimes committed by the Allied armies on that front were larger than those an the other fronts. And even by that logic, the USSR didn't set up extermination camps for tens of millions of people.

And I know you're going to say "but teh gulag!", and it's bullshit:

(Image)

Different circumstances don't make one's hands any less bloody. And yes, the Nazis outclassed the USSR at sending people to die in camps. I'd still say roughly 1.6 million people from 1929 to 1953 is an amount that can't be ignored.

1) Wiki says 1.2 million.
2) That's a rather small percentage of people in the camps, so to call them death camps is absurd.
3) The number of people at any one time isn't much higher (proportionally) than the number in prisons today.
4) Disease was pretty rampant in the camps.

So, given all that, the Gulag wasn't much worse than a regular prison system. I mean, how many have died in the US prison system in the last 24 years? I'd bet it's not much lower.

EDIT: I didn't say they didn't, I said that you have to take into account that 85% of the fighting took place there, so obviously there's going to be a larger number of people there committing war crimes, just because of the larger number of people.

[Saiwania]

The conditions in the Soviet gulags were at their worst during WWII. A lot of Soviet citizens were starving and the POWs that the USSR held were given much less priority and consequently died off or suffered hard years.

[United Marxist Nations]

The conditions in the Soviet gulags were at their worst during WWII. A lot of Soviet citizens were starving and the POWs that the USSR held were given much less priority and consequently died off or suffered hard years.

The Nazi POW's got better treatment than they gave USSR POW's, or USSR civilians for that matter. Remember that Germany referred to the war as "a war of extermination." And lots of Gulag prisoners were released in the war years, hell, lots were given guns and sent to fight. And what you said about the lots of Soviet citizens starving is true, the USSR had lost much of its farmland, and it's certainly going to give more food to its starving citizens than to the people trying to murder all of their citizens.

[Cedoria]

Does it matter that one of the judges presided over show-trials? Nuremburg practically was a show trial, they had all the evidence, and that made it pretty obvious that they were guilty as charged.

It's actually surprising to see how many of the Nazi War Criminals who were tried at Nuremburg were let go, for various reasons, such as their age, or their tearful claims of "just following orders" Some also gave the judges the names of other war criminals in exchange for their own acquittal.
Do I think Allied War Criminals should have been prosecuted? Yes, but History is written by the victors, I can guarantee you that, had the Nazis won, our War Criminals would have been prosecuted for bombing Dresden, even as those responsible for the Holocaust were ignored.

[United Marxist Nations]

And they were also essentially fighting a completely different war. The War in the East and the War in the West were two completely different things. You have to remember that when the Nazis invaded the USSR, their enemy wasn't the USSR, their enemy was the people living in the USSR. It was a struggle of such massive scale that of course war crimes committed by the Allied armies on that front were larger than those an the other fronts. And even by that logic, the USSR didn't set up extermination camps for tens of millions of people.

And I know you're going to say "but teh gulag!", and it's bullshit:

It only goes up to 1953? North Korea still exists though

"Gulag" is not the name of labor camps, it is the name of a specific government organization.

[Trotskylvania]

It was a bunch of show trials and a bloody shame. The worst culprits of all, who had helped Germany invade Poland and had been much more brutal to civilian populations than the Germans during World War II and at the time occupied half of Europe, keeping the 'workers of all nations' in line with arbitrary executions and deportation to prison camps often worse than those the Germans had used, weren't put on trial for their crimes. So, the people who organised these trials punished the killer, but let the serial killer run free. That, and even within the group of German core officials a severe double standard was maintained. Many Germans who had done more than the ones on trial were whisked away to the United States and given a house, a car and a nice big income in exchange for their research.

Lies and slander.

First of all, the Nuremberg Trial's rules were not the rules of a kangaroo court, nor victor's justice. The court permitted an absolute defense for any of the accused: if it could be demonstrate that any Allied personnel committed the same act, then they would be exonerated. Many were able to use this defense successfully, and avoid punishment. The court reserved its punishment for those who committed acts of extreme barbarity that far exceeded the normal excesses of war time.

The Soviets, no matter how brutal they were to their own people, were not as disgustingly evil as the Nazis. The Nazis killed thirty million Soviet citizens over the course of the war, violating all of the laws of war. They massacred Soviet civilians by the millions. They deliberately starved millions more to death in a deliberate scheme of genocide. They murdered Soviet POWs by the millions.

A captured German soldier was ten times more likely to survive than a Soviet soldier captured by the Germans. That is all you need to know about the scale of Nazi barbarity in Russia. The scale of Stalin's crimes paled into insignificance, and the war turned dissidents and opponents of Stalin's regime into his supporters.

But your tack on this issue isn't surprising, given your outright racialism. It isn't suprising that you chose to ignore the Nazi's crimes and whitewash the mass murder of Slavic untermenschen.

"In my opinion, the American Army as it now exists could beat the Russians with the greatest of ease, because, while the Russians have good infantry, they are lacking in artillery, air, tanks, and in the knowledge of the use of the combined arms, whereas we excel in all three of these. If it should be necessary to fight the Russians, the sooner we do it the better.
(...)
If we have to fight them, now is the time. From now on we will get weaker and they stronger."
In parts of Eastern Europe, America and Britain are still hated for signing over all of those countries to the horrors of Soviet Socialism without a fight.

Patton was completely incorrect in his assessments. Operation Bagration was the largest and most successful combined arms operation of the war, involving more Soviet tanks, artillery and air power than the whole of the forces deployed by the US into the European Theater of Operations. Bagration broke the Wehrmacht's back, utterly bliterating Army Group Centre, and annihilating the core of Germany's elite mechanized forces. This was accomplished by the excellent strategic and tactical use of combined arms, as well as overwhelming firepower.

[United Marxist Nations]

It was a bunch of show trials and a bloody shame. The worst culprits of all, who had helped Germany invade Poland and had been much more brutal to civilian populations than the Germans during World War II and at the time occupied half of Europe, keeping the 'workers of all nations' in line with arbitrary executions and deportation to prison camps often worse than those the Germans had used, weren't put on trial for their crimes. So, the people who organised these trials punished the killer, but let the serial killer run free. That, and even within the group of German core officials a severe double standard was maintained. Many Germans who had done more than the ones on trial were whisked away to the United States and given a house, a car and a nice big income in exchange for their research.

Lies and slander.

First of all, the Nuremberg Trial's rules were not the rules of a kangaroo court, nor victor's justice. The court permitted an absolute defense for any of the accused: if it could be demonstrate that any Allied personnel committed the same act, then they would be exonerated. Many were able to use this defense successfully, and avoid punishment. The court reserved its punishment for those who committed acts of extreme barbarity that far exceeded the normal excesses of war time.

The Soviets, no matter how brutal they were to their own people, were not as disgustingly evil as the Nazis. The Nazis killed thirty million Soviet citizens over the course of the war, violating all of the laws of war. They massacred Soviet civilians by the millions. They deliberately starved millions more to death in a deliberate scheme of genocide. They murdered Soviet POWs by the millions.

A captured German soldier was ten times more likely to survive than a Soviet soldier captured by the Germans. That is all you need to know about the scale of Nazi barbarity in Russia. The scale of Stalin's crimes paled into insignificance, and the war turned dissidents and opponents of Stalin's regime into his supporters.

But your tack on this issue isn't surprising, given your outright racialism. It isn't suprising that you chose to ignore the Nazi's crimes and whitewash the mass murder of Slavic untermenschen.

"In my opinion, the American Army as it now exists could beat the Russians with the greatest of ease, because, while the Russians have good infantry, they are lacking in artillery, air, tanks, and in the knowledge of the use of the combined arms, whereas we excel in all three of these. If it should be necessary to fight the Russians, the sooner we do it the better.
(...)
If we have to fight them, now is the time. From now on we will get weaker and they stronger."
In parts of Eastern Europe, America and Britain are still hated for signing over all of those countries to the horrors of Soviet Socialism without a fight.

Patton was completely incorrect in his assessments. Operation Bagration was the largest and most successful combined arms operation of the war, involving more Soviet tanks, artillery and air power than the whole of the forces deployed by the US into the European Theater of Operations. Bagration broke the Wehrmacht's back, utterly bliterating Army Group Centre, and annihilating the core of Germany's elite mechanized forces. This was accomplished by the excellent strategic and tactical use of combined arms, as well as overwhelming firepower.

^This.

[United Marxist Nations]

"Gulag" is not the name of labor camps, it is the name of a specific government organization.

BE QUIET NOW OR YOU GO TO GULAG!

*Гла́вное управле́ние лагере́й и коло́ний

[Oceanic Vakiadia]

1) Wiki says 1.2 million.
2) That's a rather small percentage of people in the camps, so to call them death camps is absurd.
3) The number of people at any one time isn't much higher (proportionally) than the number in prisons today.
4) Disease was pretty rampant in the camps.

So, given all that, the Gulag wasn't much worse than a regular prison system. I mean, how many have died in the US prison system in the last 24 years? I'd bet it's not much lower.

EDIT: I didn't say they didn't, I said that you have to take into account that 85% of the fighting took place there, so obviously there's going to be a larger number of people there committing war crimes, just because of the larger number of people.

1. Wiki says 1.2 million for the period from 34-53, I specified 29-53. It also says estimates go as high as 10 million for the whole run from 1918-1953.
2. Yes, the Soviets never set up death camps like the Nazis did.
3. I don't see what that proves, but okay.
4. It was also present in the Nazi camps. Not sure what this proves either, that not every death in the camps was intentional? You could say the same for the Nazi camps.

Yes, I can agree with that. It doesn't make it any better, but it does provide context for why it was that way.

But in all seriousness, the National Socialist rule in Germany started a Second World War, killed 6 million Jews and saved the German Economy. But yes, they were fair. Very fair. Plz no h8 if naziz here

I wouldn't call losing a war and getting your country divided in two for nearly 50 years 'saving the economy', but okay.

[Geilinor]

No side in World War II was completely guiltless and all war crimes weren't prosecuted at Nuremburg, but the trials did succeed in punishing Nazi Germany for its actions.

[United Marxist Nations]

1) Wiki says 1.2 million.
2) That's a rather small percentage of people in the camps, so to call them death camps is absurd.
3) The number of people at any one time isn't much higher (proportionally) than the number in prisons today.
4) Disease was pretty rampant in the camps.

So, given all that, the Gulag wasn't much worse than a regular prison system. I mean, how many have died in the US prison system in the last 24 years? I'd bet it's not much lower.

EDIT: I didn't say they didn't, I said that you have to take into account that 85% of the fighting took place there, so obviously there's going to be a larger number of people there committing war crimes, just because of the larger number of people.

1. Wiki says 1.2 million for the period from 34-53, I specified 29-53. It also says estimates go as high as 10 million for the whole run from 1918-1953.
2. Yes, the Soviets never set up death camps like the Nazis did.
3. I don't see what that proves, but okay.
4. It was also present in the Nazi camps. Not sure what this proves either, that not every death in the camps was intentional? You could say the same for the Nazi camps.

Yes, I can agree with that. It doesn't make it any better, but it does provide context for why it was that way.

1) My bad there.
3) That the Gulag was not some extraordinary thing, it was just a prison system.
4) That the number of deaths in the Gulag isn't at all surprising, and that people weren't deliberately being made to die. The Nazi camps did intend to cause death.

[Gauthier]

It was a bunch of show trials and a bloody shame. The worst culprits of all, who had helped Germany invade Poland and had been much more brutal to civilian populations than the Germans during World War II and at the time occupied half of Europe, keeping the 'workers of all nations' in line with arbitrary executions and deportation to prison camps often worse than those the Germans had used, weren't put on trial for their crimes. So, the people who organised these trials punished the killer, but let the serial killer run free. That, and even within the group of German core officials a severe double standard was maintained. Many Germans who had done more than the ones on trial were whisked away to the United States and given a house, a car and a nice big income in exchange for their research.

lel "Scientists raped and murdered more people than the soldiers and officers!" What next, you're going to blame Oppenheimer and his team for flying the Enola Gay over Japan themselves on top of forcing Korean women into military prostitution?

[Geilinor]

1. Wiki says 1.2 million for the period from 34-53, I specified 29-53. It also says estimates go as high as 10 million for the whole run from 1918-1953.
2. Yes, the Soviets never set up death camps like the Nazis did.
3. I don't see what that proves, but okay.
4. It was also present in the Nazi camps. Not sure what this proves either, that not every death in the camps was intentional? You could say the same for the Nazi camps.

Yes, I can agree with that. It doesn't make it any better, but it does provide context for why it was that way.

3) That the Gulag was not some extraordinary thing, it was just a prison system.

It was a system of forced labor camps and people could be imprisoned for no crime at all.

[United Marxist Nations]

3) That the Gulag was not some extraordinary thing, it was just a prison system.

It was a system of forced labor camps and people could be imprisoned for no crime at all.

I suppose you have proof of the emphasized? EDIT: Keep in mind that "crime" just means something that is illegal.

[Oceanic Vakiadia]

1) My bad there.
3) That the Gulag was not some extraordinary thing, it was just a prison system.
4) That the number of deaths in the Gulag isn't at all surprising, and that people weren't deliberately being made to die. The Nazi camps did intend to cause death.

3. True, but as far as prison systems go it was remarkably wide-reaching and brutal.
4. Also true, but when the conditions in the camps are so horrid (even outside of wartime) it is going to exacerbate the problem considerably. It would not be a stretch to say you could hold some people accountable for that.

[Saiwania]

Stalin had most of the Soviet POWs which were held by the Germans sent to Gulags after the war for being "traitors."

[Geilinor]

It was a system of forced labor camps and people could be imprisoned for no crime at all.

I suppose you have proof of the emphasized?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#Background

During 1920-50, the leaders of the Communist Party and Soviet state considered repression as a tool for securing the normal functioning of the Soviet state system, as well as preserving and strengthening positions of their social base, the working class (when the Bolsheviks took power, peasants represented 80% of the population).[30] GULAS system was introduced to isolate and eliminate class-alien, socially dangerous, disruptive, suspicious, and other disloyal, whose deeds and thoughts were not contributing to the strengthening of the dictatorship of the proletariat

Most Gulag inmates were not political prisoners, although significant numbers of political prisoners could be found in the camps at any one time.[21] Petty crimes and jokes about the Soviet government and officials were punishable by imprisonment.[22][23] About half of political prisoners in the Gulag camps were imprisoned without trial; official data suggest that there were over 2.6 million sentences to imprisonment on cases investigated by the secret police throughout 1921-1953.[24]

I know you'll consider punishing counter-revolutionaries and revisionists justified, but I don't.

[United Marxist Nations]

1) My bad there.
3) That the Gulag was not some extraordinary thing, it was just a prison system.
4) That the number of deaths in the Gulag isn't at all surprising, and that people weren't deliberately being made to die. The Nazi camps did intend to cause death.

3. True, but as far as prison systems go it was remarkably wide-reaching and brutal.
4. Also true, but when the conditions in the camps are so horrid (even outside of wartime) it is going to exacerbate the problem considerably. It would not be a stretch to say you could hold some people accountable for that.

4) True, and people were held accountable: Lavrienty Beria (head of the NKVD) was executed, partially for the excesses of the Gulag system (along with other "acts of terrorism").

[United Marxist Nations]

I suppose you have proof of the emphasized?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#Background

During 1920-50, the leaders of the Communist Party and Soviet state considered repression as a tool for securing the normal functioning of the Soviet state system, as well as preserving and strengthening positions of their social base, the working class (when the Bolsheviks took power, peasants represented 80% of the population).[30] GULAS system was introduced to isolate and eliminate class-alien, socially dangerous, disruptive, suspicious, and other disloyal, whose deeds and thoughts were not contributing to the strengthening of the dictatorship of the proletariat

Most Gulag inmates were not political prisoners, although significant numbers of political prisoners could be found in the camps at any one time.[21] Petty crimes and jokes about the Soviet government and officials were punishable by imprisonment.[22][23] About half of political prisoners in the Gulag camps were imprisoned without trial; official data suggest that there were over 2.6 million sentences to imprisonment on cases investigated by the secret police throughout 1921-1953.[24]

I know you'll consider punishing counter-revolutionaries and revisionists justified, but I don't.

Being a counter-revolutionary was a crime, so you can't say they were imprisoned for no crime at all.

[Geilinor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#Background



I know you'll consider punishing counter-revolutionaries and revisionists justified, but I don't.

Being a counter-revolutionary was a crime, so you can't say they were imprisoned for no crime at all.

Keep in mind that half were imprisoned without trial.

[Infected Mushroom]

Nuremburg Trials went against the rule of law and procedural fairness. The court had no authority (did not even exist) while the thing they are charging the leaders for took place; it materialized out of thin air after the facts and then assumed it had the power to try crimes before they themselves even existed and took jurisdiction.

They convicted and executed ''war criminals'' without precedent. Hundreds of years of precedents (arguably thousands) in which soldiers and commanders owed the highest duties to absolute obedience to the State in the conduct of war were tossed aside in the name of principles that weren't even established, had no precedents, and for which the court had no authority to represent.

They also only focused on Axis war crimes. Why weren't Soviets or Americans tried? It was victor's justice.

The Nuremburg Trials shouldn't have happened. It was an example of the Allies really losing a lot of credibility.

[Geilinor]

Nuremburg Trials went against the rule of law and procedural fairness. The court had no authority (did not even exist)

What do you mean, "did not exist"?

[United Marxist Nations]

Stalin had most of the Soviet POWs which were held by the Germans sent to Gulags after the war for being "traitors."

This is the result of mistranslation and confusion of two bureaus.

When returning POW's came back, they were sent to "filtration camps", which essentially checked their background and tried to find out how they were captured, to determine if they had broken Order No. 270. Of those who entered the filtration camps, only about 8 percent were sent to the Gulag (and even then, as members of penal battalions, not as ordinary prisoners). ~90% were cleared and sent on their way.
EDIT: Shit, got numbers mixed up: 9 Percent were sent to the Penal Battalions, 90% were cleared.