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Could the Northeast USA be an independent country?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Would you like the idea of an independent Northeast?

Yes.
56
35%
No.
82
52%
I'm not sure.
20
13%
 
Total votes : 158

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Atlanticatia
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Could the Northeast USA be an independent country?

Postby Atlanticatia » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:34 am

So, after seeing the "1 in 4 Americans open to secession" thread, and with many Northeasterners/New Englanders saying it'd be interesting to see what it'd be like if the Northeast was separate from the US. I've been thinking about this recently: could the Northeastern United States go it alone? Should it be its own country?
I'm not saying that I'd even advocate for this, but it's interesting to think about and discuss.

(Disclaimer: IMO it'd be pointless to 'secede' but it is an interesting topic to examine.)

The Northeast is very different from the rest of the United States politically, demographically, and culturally. It is the economic center of the US and would be one of the wealthiest economies in the world. The people are much more liberal. We support multiculturalism.
As a Northeasterner - many of us often feel disconnected from Washington when we have trouble relating to the "gun culture", social conservatism, Evangelicalism in politics, etc. We aren't anti-intellectualism.

Using the most strict definition of the Northeast, let's say that it includes Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania.

- It'd have a population of about ~55.94 million.
- It'd have a GDP of about ~$3.422 trillion, and a GDP per capita of about $61,172.
- The current GDP of the US is $17.3 trillion, with a GDP per capita of about $54,746.
- Without the Northeast, the US' GDP would fall to $13.91 trillion, with a GDP per capita of $44,018. ($17,154 less than an independent Northeast!)
- It'd be the 5th largest economy in the world

The Northeast is far different from the rest of the US. The culture is completely different, the emphasis on urban areas is different, etc. I mean, I'd say we're far closer (politically and culturally) to Canada than to Texas or Alabama.
I imagine that an independent Northeast would be a much fairer society, with an emphasis on social liberalism and multiculturalism. We'd be a secular country, with respect for irreligious people.
We'd probably have comprehensive environmental protection measures like a carbon tax or a cap and trade scheme. We already get significant amounts of our power from renewable sources.
We'd have universal health care. A woman's right to choose would never be taken away, and the rights of the LGBT community would be protected.
We'd follow states like NJ and Rhode Island and provide paid parental/family leave, paid sick leave, etc to all residents.
We'd respect our immigrants and multiculturalism, and actually reform the immigration system.
Our borders would be the US, Canada, and the Atlantic Ocean. No threats at all.
We'd have great schools - for example, Massachusetts, if it were its own country, it'd be ranked within the top 10 countries in the world for education (PISA). We'd have amazing universities (I mean, we have the whole Ivy League, SUNY system, etc).
Our poverty rate would be far lower than the current USA's.
Our obesity rate would be 20-25%.
Our crime rates would be far lower, with far less gun violence.
We don't have a racist culture.
We'd have some of the highest average incomes in the world.
I hate to say it, but the Northeast is almost "held back" in a way by parts of the rest of the country. There are very few areas in which we do not exceed the rest of the country in rankings and statistics. (except for maybe our cold winters)

Politics are one of the biggest things - we've voted Democrat consistently for the past 20 years. We are the most politically liberal areas of the country. Even our Republicans are moderate. (We lack a Tea Party base.)

So, the Northeast is considerably different - and dare I say better - than the rest of the US. (Yankee pride?)

NSG, what do you think? Could the Northeast go it alone as its own country? Should it?

I mean, I don't think we should secede necessarily but if we did, we could definitely thrive. I think that we are definitely more similar to countries like Canada, the UK, Australia, etc rather than states like Texas or Kansas. The biggest thing is that we're far more secular and socially liberal than the rest of the country. Most people here believe in LGBT rights, womens' rights, affirmative action programs, etc, but we're held back by more conservative parts of the country. Same goes for the role of government - we support a welfare state, redistribution of wealth, etc. Gun control is also a big thing. Apart from the rural states of VT and NH, gun ownership isn't really prevalent. We already have some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and some of the lowest rates of gun ownership.
Also I think that if we were independent, we wouldn't have a neoconservative foreign policy.

Secession probably would be pointless, but hey, I wouldn't be upset if it happened. Maybe Canada could annex us or something. :lol2:
Last edited by Atlanticatia on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:37 am, edited 4 times in total.
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i'm a dual american-new zealander previously lived in the northeast US, now living in new zealand. university student.
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Greater Weselton
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Postby Greater Weselton » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:35 am

The Northeast would probably be like the Netherlands if they were independent.
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Hallowell
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Postby Hallowell » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:35 am

Where's Massachusetts?
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District XIV
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Postby District XIV » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:36 am

If they did, the Northwest USA should secede as well so we can become best friends :P

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Scepez
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Postby Scepez » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:36 am

Because a split of the US is exactly what we need right now :roll: .
???

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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:37 am

Let's not be independent. Especially over something silly like a cultural difference.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Atlanticatia
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Postby Atlanticatia » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:37 am

Hallowell wrote:Where's Massachusetts?


I forgot to write them down. I included them in all of the calculations but forgot to put them in the list. :p I just changed it.
Last edited by Atlanticatia on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Economic Left/Right: -5.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95

Pros: social democracy, LGBT+ rights, pro-choice, free education and health care, environmentalism, Nordic model, secularism, welfare state, multiculturalism
Cons: social conservatism, neoliberalism, hate speech, racism, sexism, 'right-to-work' laws, religious fundamentalism
i'm a dual american-new zealander previously lived in the northeast US, now living in new zealand. university student.
Social Democrat and Progressive.
Hanna Nilsen, Leader of the SDP. Equality, Prosperity, and Opportunity: The Social Democratic Party

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District XIV
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Postby District XIV » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:37 am

Scepez wrote:Because a split of the US is exactly what we need right now :roll: .

It's a could, not should. Read the title and OP next time.

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Atlanticatia
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Postby Atlanticatia » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:38 am

District XIV wrote:If they did, the Northwest USA should secede as well so we can become best friends :P


Cascadia and the Northeast US, eh? :p

If we were to ever be a different country, I'd feel bad leaving the West Coast behind. :lol2:
Last edited by Atlanticatia on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Economic Left/Right: -5.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95

Pros: social democracy, LGBT+ rights, pro-choice, free education and health care, environmentalism, Nordic model, secularism, welfare state, multiculturalism
Cons: social conservatism, neoliberalism, hate speech, racism, sexism, 'right-to-work' laws, religious fundamentalism
i'm a dual american-new zealander previously lived in the northeast US, now living in new zealand. university student.
Social Democrat and Progressive.
Hanna Nilsen, Leader of the SDP. Equality, Prosperity, and Opportunity: The Social Democratic Party

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Blazedtown
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Postby Blazedtown » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:39 am

No. just like every other state, its economy is a part of a larger whole. If they became independent, they would suffer horribly, as would the rest of the country.

Not to mention the resulting smug storm would make the Great Smug of 2006 that sucked San Francisco up its own asshole look like a spring rain.
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District XIV
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Postby District XIV » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:40 am

Blazedtown wrote:If they became independent, they would suffer horribly, as would the rest of the country.

Former Yugoslav Republics disagree.

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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:40 am

I'll believe you when they aren't plotting a fascist coup against FDR.
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District XIV
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Postby District XIV » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:40 am

Benuty wrote:I'll believe you when they aren't plotting a fascist coup against FDR.

>.>
<.<

You weren't supposed to mention that god damn it! ;P

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Atlanticatia
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Postby Atlanticatia » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:41 am

District XIV wrote:
Blazedtown wrote:If they became independent, they would suffer horribly, as would the rest of the country.

Former Yugoslav Republics disagree.


Also the fact that the Northeast US' GDP per capita is $17,154 higher than the rest of the US means that it'd probably be the rest of the country that suffers, not the Northeast.
Economic Left/Right: -5.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95

Pros: social democracy, LGBT+ rights, pro-choice, free education and health care, environmentalism, Nordic model, secularism, welfare state, multiculturalism
Cons: social conservatism, neoliberalism, hate speech, racism, sexism, 'right-to-work' laws, religious fundamentalism
i'm a dual american-new zealander previously lived in the northeast US, now living in new zealand. university student.
Social Democrat and Progressive.
Hanna Nilsen, Leader of the SDP. Equality, Prosperity, and Opportunity: The Social Democratic Party

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Scepez
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Postby Scepez » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:42 am

District XIV wrote:
Scepez wrote:Because a split of the US is exactly what we need right now :roll: .

It's a could, not should. Read the title and OP next time.


Even if it's a could, it always comes down to if it should.
If people talked about the seccession of Quebec, if they asked if they could, they still need to figure out if they should.
???

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Blazedtown
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Postby Blazedtown » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:42 am

District XIV wrote:
Blazedtown wrote:If they became independent, they would suffer horribly, as would the rest of the country.

Former Yugoslav Republics disagree.


Are you sure you want to use the break up of Yugoslavia as a model for the dissolution of America?
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Greater Weselton
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Postby Greater Weselton » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:42 am

How much like the Soviet Union would an independent Northeast be like?
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District XIV
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Postby District XIV » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:43 am

Blazedtown wrote:
District XIV wrote:Former Yugoslav Republics disagree.


Are you sure you want to use the break up of Yugoslavia as a model for the dissolution of America?

Yes and no, because the break up of Yugoslavia was obviously more violent and had a much poorer outcome than a state (or bunch of states) seceding.

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District XIV
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Postby District XIV » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:43 am

Greater Weselton wrote:How much like the Soviet Union would an independent Northeast be like?

Nothing like it.

Seriously, stop asking these questions.

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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:44 am

Greater Weselton wrote:How much like the Soviet Union would an independent Northeast be like?

That's to assume a populist revolutionary took over said country leaving his successor government to then distort said countries original intent for revolution.
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Atlanticatia
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Postby Atlanticatia » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:44 am

Scepez wrote:
District XIV wrote:It's a could, not should. Read the title and OP next time.


Even if it's a could, it always comes down to if it should.
If people talked about the seccession of Quebec, if they asked if they could, they still need to figure out if they should.


Well, I think that the Northeast could secede, but it shouldn't. Compared to a place like Québec which is dependent (transfer payments, lower GDP per capita, etc) on the rest of Canada, the Northeast is a net contributor to federal taxes, has a higher GDP per capita, the economic center of the country, etc.
Economic Left/Right: -5.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95

Pros: social democracy, LGBT+ rights, pro-choice, free education and health care, environmentalism, Nordic model, secularism, welfare state, multiculturalism
Cons: social conservatism, neoliberalism, hate speech, racism, sexism, 'right-to-work' laws, religious fundamentalism
i'm a dual american-new zealander previously lived in the northeast US, now living in new zealand. university student.
Social Democrat and Progressive.
Hanna Nilsen, Leader of the SDP. Equality, Prosperity, and Opportunity: The Social Democratic Party

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Greater Weselton
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Postby Greater Weselton » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:44 am

District XIV wrote:
Greater Weselton wrote:How much like the Soviet Union would an independent Northeast be like?

Nothing like it.

Seriously, stop asking these questions.

I think it would be like the USSR due to abortion and the extreme welfare state.
I am not a Nazi in real life.
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Blazedtown
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Postby Blazedtown » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:45 am

District XIV wrote:
Blazedtown wrote:
Are you sure you want to use the break up of Yugoslavia as a model for the dissolution of America?

Yes and no, because the break up of Yugoslavia was obviously more violent and had a much poorer outcome than a state (or bunch of states) seceding.


And you think secession wouldn't be violent because? Treason is punishable by death and has the been the cause of civil war in the past.
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District XIV
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Postby District XIV » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:46 am

Benuty wrote:
Greater Weselton wrote:How much like the Soviet Union would an independent Northeast be like?

That's to assume a populist revolutionary took over said country leaving his successor government to then distort said countries original intent for revolution.

I can imagine it now...

Vermonter SSR
Massachusite SSR
etc.

;)

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The New Lowlands
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Postby The New Lowlands » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:46 am

Greater Weselton wrote:
District XIV wrote:Nothing like it.

Seriously, stop asking these questions.

I think it would be like the USSR due to abortion and the extreme welfare state.

wat

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