Why can't free markets provide healthcare?

[Kravanica]

"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house." - Barack Obama

Which is a great reason for universal healthcare and why Republican leaders should modernize.

Republicans don't play into it.

Not right now, at least.

[Atlanticatia]

The problem with American politics is that it's down to a far right party vs a centrist party. The progressive caucus, the actually center left social democrat faction of the Dems, will have a hard time shifting the whole party leftwards.

[Othelos]

"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house." - Barack Obama

Which is a great reason for universal healthcare and why Republican leaders should modernize.

exactly.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

First, create a free market somewhere. Then we'll see if it can provide healthcare, or anything else for that matter.

btw do a little research on outcomes and costs before boosting for "the American way," especially in healthcare.

^ This

[Chestaan]

Because people assume healthcare is a right and wish to pay reduced or negligible amounts for it, regardless of market equilibrium.

Yep.

Yes people want to be able to afford necessary treatment, the bastards!

[Chestaan]

First, create a free market somewhere. Then we'll see if it can provide healthcare, or anything else for that matter.

btw do a little research on outcomes and costs before boosting for "the American way," especially in healthcare.

^ This

But St. Mises and the Great Prophet Hayek told me that the free market is perfectly efficient! Market failures are a Satanic lie!

[Death Metal]

"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house." - Barack Obama

And if the GOP would have allowed a system that didn't have a mandate, we wouldn't have one.

Besides, the law is based on Mitt Romney's law, which in turn was based on the 1990s proposals by the GOP as an alternative to the Clinton system. Guess which one had a mandate and which didn't? (Hint: The GOP one). And the GOP's steadfast refusal to budge on the mandate is why the healthcare system wasn't fixed in the 50s.

Your marks:
0/10 for originality
3/10 for overall use of misleading propaganda
0/10 for contributing to the thread (it would have been 2, but you failed to advocate a mixed-market system)

[Chestaan]

"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house." - Barack Obama

And if the GOP would have allowed a system that didn't have a mandate, we wouldn't have one.

Besides, the law is based on Mitt Romney's law, which in turn was based on the 1990s proposals by the GOP as an alternative to the Clinton system. Guess which one had a mandate and which didn't? (Hint: The GOP one). And the GOP's steadfast refusal to budge on the mandate is why the healthcare system wasn't fixed in the 50s.

Your marks:
0/10 for originality
3/10 for overall use of misleading propaganda
0/10 for contributing to the thread (it would have been 2, but you failed to advocate a mixed-market system)

I'm also pretty sure I've seen that quote attributed to Hillary Clinton before.

[Salandriagado]

The number one profit area for the USPS is ... junk mail.

I'm not sure what point you think you're making and how that counters the idea that public and private entities can find a niche in the same business area.

Or hell, if you want a more directly relevant example: BUPA would like a word.

[Kravanica]

"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house." - Barack Obama

And if the GOP would have allowed a system that didn't have a mandate, we wouldn't have one.

Besides, the law is based on Mitt Romney's law, which in turn was based on the 1990s proposals by the GOP as an alternative to the Clinton system. Guess which one had a mandate and which didn't? (Hint: The GOP one). And the GOP's steadfast refusal to budge on the mandate is why the healthcare system wasn't fixed in the 50s.

Your marks:
0/10 for originality
3/10 for overall use of misleading propaganda
0/10 for contributing to the thread (it would have been 2, but you failed to advocate a mixed-market system)

That's great, but screaming "B-b-but the GOP!" isn't much of a response. I find it hilarious that when I point out Obama's pure and utter hypocrisy liberals like you spin right around and start attacking the GOP.

This law was passed when the Democrats had control of both houses of Congress so you lot really don't have much of a case.

Your marks:
0/10 for general douchebaggery
-1/10 for the whole conspiracy theorist general propaganda claim
0/10 for such uncouth debating skills

[Murkwood]

"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house." - Barack Obama

And if the GOP would have allowed a system that didn't have a mandate, we wouldn't have one.

Besides, the law is based on Mitt Romney's law, which in turn was based on the 1990s proposals by the GOP as an alternative to the Clinton system. Guess which one had a mandate and which didn't? (Hint: The GOP one). And the GOP's steadfast refusal to budge on the mandate is why the healthcare system wasn't fixed in the 50s.

Your marks:
0/10 for originality
3/10 for overall use of misleading propaganda
0/10 for contributing to the thread (it would have been 2, but you failed to advocate a mixed-market system)

For the last time, Romneycare is different from Obamacare. Vastly different.

0/10 for being a dick to people who have differing opinions.

[Republic of Coldwater]

^ This

But St. Mises and the Great Prophet Hayek told me that the free market is perfectly efficient! Market failures are a Satanic lie!

However a state controlled market will also have a state collapse, take state collapses taking place in China and the USSR, causing widespread hunger and economic stagnation, whilst market failures are really recessions, and from every recession, the market becomes more resilient, if there isn't some central bank artificially lowering interest rates or practicing fractional banking, the market will not fail to a point where the economy really fucks up, which happened under state control.

[Republic of Coldwater]

The problem with American politics is that it's down to a far right party vs a centrist party. The progressive caucus, the actually center left social democrat faction of the Dems, will have a hard time shifting the whole party leftwards.

How is the GOP is Far Right? In the traditional sense of word Far-Right views are when people support extreme forms of racism, xenophobia, nativism, authoritarianism, nationalism and much more, and that includes supporting the abolishment of democracy and many American ideals that the Republicans (at least on paper) attempt to preserve. The GOP is really centre-right, while the Tea Party is Right Wing.

The Democrats are not centrist by any means, they have proposed expanding the welfare state, raising the minimum wage, higher taxes and more regulations. The Democrats are really centre-left, and the progressive caucus are at the heart of it.

[Kravanica]

And if the GOP would have allowed a system that didn't have a mandate, we wouldn't have one.

Besides, the law is based on Mitt Romney's law, which in turn was based on the 1990s proposals by the GOP as an alternative to the Clinton system. Guess which one had a mandate and which didn't? (Hint: The GOP one). And the GOP's steadfast refusal to budge on the mandate is why the healthcare system wasn't fixed in the 50s.

Your marks:
0/10 for originality
3/10 for overall use of misleading propaganda
0/10 for contributing to the thread (it would have been 2, but you failed to advocate a mixed-market system)

For the last time, Romneycare is different from Obamacare. Vastly different.

0/10 for being a dick to people who have differing opinions.

You do have to admire the deflecting skills of these liberals. If Obamacare sucks then it's not a Democrat failure. It's a Republican failure.

[Kravanica]

The problem with American politics is that it's down to a far right party vs a centrist party. The progressive caucus, the actually center left social democrat faction of the Dems, will have a hard time shifting the whole party leftwards.

How is the GOP is Far Right? In the traditional sense of word Far-Right views are when people support extreme forms of racism, xenophobia, nativism, authoritarianism, nationalism and much more, and that includes supporting the abolishment of democracy and many American ideals that the Republicans (at least on paper) attempt to preserve. The GOP is really centre-right, while the Tea Party is Right Wing.

The Democrats are not centrist by any means, they have proposed expanding the welfare state, raising the minimum wage, higher taxes and more regulations. The Democrats are really centre-left, and the progressive caucus are at the heart of it.

And cue that "All Republicans are racist" choir.

[Ashmoria]

For the last time, Romneycare is different from Obamacare. Vastly different.

0/10 for being a dick to people who have differing opinions.

You do have to admire the deflecting skills of these liberals. If Obamacare sucks then it's not a Democrat failure. It's a Republican failure.

sure but obamacare doesn't suck and the only way that its vastly different from romneycare is in its scope.

[CTALNH]

Brothers Brothers please stop bitching for stupid shit and smoke a joint.

[Kravanica]

You do have to admire the deflecting skills of these liberals. If Obamacare sucks then it's not a Democrat failure. It's a Republican failure.

sure but obamacare doesn't suck and the only way that its vastly different from romneycare is in its scope.

It does suck, but we can debate that elsewhere. The point I'm trying to make here is that Obama spoke out against an individual mandate for healthcare. Then he ended up including one in Obamacare and somehow the liberals here are trying to blame that on Republicans.

It's the world's worst Democrat backpedal.

[Neutraligon]

sure but obamacare doesn't suck and the only way that its vastly different from romneycare is in its scope.

It does suck, but we can debate that elsewhere. The point I'm trying to make here is that Obama spoke out against an individual mandate for healthcare. Then he ended up including one in Obamacare and somehow the liberals here are trying to blame that on Republicans.

It's the world's worst Democrat backpedal.

There is this thing called compromise. Considering in the past Republicans had insisted on the mandate, I am pretty sure including the mandate was an attempt to compromise.

[Ashmoria]

sure but obamacare doesn't suck and the only way that its vastly different from romneycare is in its scope.

It does suck, but we can debate that elsewhere. The point I'm trying to make here is that Obama spoke out against an individual mandate for healthcare. Then he ended up including one in Obamacare and somehow the liberals here are trying to blame that on Republicans.

It's the world's worst Democrat backpedal.

and is utterly irrelevant now. it turns out that you cant make this system work without a mandate.

we only have what we have through an amazing effort on the part of nancy Pelosi. in a more perfect world ted kennedy wouldn't have died and the house and senate would have gone to conference to work out a better plan. *shrug* the law is working far better than I expected it to.

[Kelinfort]

The Japanese system is the best compromise for America. Here's why:

-Hospitals are private, but non profit
-Physicians negotiate the price of each procedure with the government for each fiscal year, cutting down on cost.
-Private insurance still exists, but it coexists with government insurance for the poor and needy; about a 70-30 split.
-Government reimburses people for 70% of all expenses.

Go take a look at the amount Japan spends per capita on healthcare versus the United States.

[Kelinfort]

sure but obamacare doesn't suck and the only way that its vastly different from romneycare is in its scope.

It does suck, but we can debate that elsewhere. The point I'm trying to make here is that Obama spoke out against an individual mandate for healthcare. Then he ended up including one in Obamacare and somehow the liberals here are trying to blame that on Republicans.

It's the world's worst Democrat backpedal.

"The Liberals".

The Democrats are a big tent party, you know.

[Kelinfort]

And if the GOP would have allowed a system that didn't have a mandate, we wouldn't have one.

Besides, the law is based on Mitt Romney's law, which in turn was based on the 1990s proposals by the GOP as an alternative to the Clinton system. Guess which one had a mandate and which didn't? (Hint: The GOP one). And the GOP's steadfast refusal to budge on the mandate is why the healthcare system wasn't fixed in the 50s.

Your marks:
0/10 for originality
3/10 for overall use of misleading propaganda
0/10 for contributing to the thread (it would have been 2, but you failed to advocate a mixed-market system)

That's great, but screaming "B-b-but the GOP!" isn't much of a response. I find it hilarious that when I point out Obama's pure and utter hypocrisy liberals like you spin right around and start attacking the GOP.

This law was passed when the Democrats had control of both houses of Congress so you lot really don't have much of a case.

Your marks:
0/10 for general douchebaggery
-1/10 for the whole conspiracy theorist general propaganda claim
0/10 for such uncouth debating skills

Except, you know, they did borrow off a similar plan endorsed by the GOP in 1993....now let's see if this sounds familiar...

Republican Sen. John Chafee of Rhode Island was the point man. The bill he introduced, Health Equity and Access Reform Today, (yes, that spells HEART) had a list of 20 co-sponsors that was a who’s who of Republican leadership. There was Minority Leader Bob Dole, R- Kan., Sens. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, Richard Lugar, R-Ind., and many others. There also were two Democratic co-sponsors.

Among other features, the Chafee bill included:

An individual mandate;

Creation of purchasing pools;

Standardized benefits;

Vouchers for the poor to buy insurance;

A ban on denying coverage based on a pre-existing condition.

Only thing missing is the expansion of Medicaid. Raving mad liberals all these gentlemen were.

[Chestaan]

But St. Mises and the Great Prophet Hayek told me that the free market is perfectly efficient! Market failures are a Satanic lie!

However a state controlled market will also have a state collapse, take state collapses taking place in China and the USSR, causing widespread hunger and economic stagnation, whilst market failures are really recessions, and from every recession, the market becomes more resilient, if there isn't some central bank artificially lowering interest rates or practicing fractional banking, the market will not fail to a point where the economy really fucks up, which happened under state control.

Who said anything about state controlled economies? Market failures are any situation where the free market leads to an outcome that is not pareto efficient. So we're talking about things like externalities such as pollution, barriers to entry which prevent competitors from entering the market amd others.

The last economic collapse was not due to governments intervening too much in the market, if anything it was because the government didn't regulate the market enough. Banks are lending too much? Increase the reserve ratio, problem solved.

I've seen a lot of people talk about fractional reserve banking as an issue, but I've never been shown what exactly the issue with it is. So if you would tell me what your gripe is with it then that would be great. Also, banks, not central banks, are the reason that fractional reserve banking is a thing.

[New Chalcedon]

And if the GOP would have allowed a system that didn't have a mandate, we wouldn't have one.

Besides, the law is based on Mitt Romney's law, which in turn was based on the 1990s proposals by the GOP as an alternative to the Clinton system. Guess which one had a mandate and which didn't? (Hint: The GOP one). And the GOP's steadfast refusal to budge on the mandate is why the healthcare system wasn't fixed in the 50s.

Your marks:
0/10 for originality
3/10 for overall use of misleading propaganda
0/10 for contributing to the thread (it would have been 2, but you failed to advocate a mixed-market system)

That's great, but screaming "B-b-but the GOP!" isn't much of a response. I find it hilarious that when I point out Obama's pure and utter hypocrisy liberals like you spin right around and start attacking the GOP.

This law was passed when the Democrats had control of both houses of Congress so you lot really don't have much of a case.

Your marks:
0/10 for general douchebaggery
-1/10 for the whole conspiracy theorist general propaganda claim
0/10 for such uncouth debating skills

The filibuster. Learn how it worked, then come back to us. But since I doubt you will, here's the short version: To get the bill past the Senate, Harry Reid needed 60 votes. At no point did the Democrats have more than 58 Senators, plus two independents - one of whom (Lieberman) stated that he would filibuster any bill more progressive than the one that passed.

Because the GOP campaigned against (and filibustered en masse) essentially the same bill they had proposed as an alternative to HillaryCare in the 1990s (not to mention the same one lauded and praised by Romney right up until the Democrats looked like they'd support it), that locked down any hope of support from that side of the aisle. Which meant that Reid needed every single Democratic and independent Senator to break the filibuster.

Also, it's a bit hard to claim "Conspiracy theory LOL" when Republicans spent the time between Election Day '08 and Inauguration Day plotting how to derail the Obama Administration. Not just "get as much of their stuff through as they could", which would have been entirely appropriate (they, too, were elected, after all), but "Make sure that the Obama Admin achieves absolutely nothing". Including stuff that they themselves championed until that time.