Why can't free markets provide healthcare?

[Lalaki]

Who invented the iPhone: Apple

Who invented the Google Glass: Google

Who made the first few leaps forward in Personal Computers: Apple/Microsoft/IBM

The first Stealth Airplane, the first supersonic jet, the first double decker jet (Boeing 747) were all made by guess what? Private Sector Companies. The military doesn't develop weapons, they start competitions for private sector companies for a new airplane/gun/tank or whatever. The innovation is done by private sector companies

Even now, the Private Sector is already innovating like NASA, and Public Universities (take SpaceX and Spaceship Two as examples). Private Universities also make innovations just like public universities do.

It is a fact that innovation is largely done by the common folk, and not my some centralized governmental system.

OK. Free enterprise and economic liberty are two great things. But what does that have to do with providing basic services to all citizens?

[Geilinor]

It is a fact that innovation is largely done by the common folk, and not my some centralized governmental system.

Corporations aren't the common folk.

[Norstal]

Seriously, are you a parody? You keep listing Singapore as a bastion of lack of regulation and it's pretty much a perfect example of the opposite. Singapore is what happens when leaders don't treat regulation like it's evil and rather uses it as it needs to be used. Our government regulations are a mess for the same reason our taxes are a mess, because we don't accept that they are necessary and they should easy to meet and clear.

And your claims about American innovation are simply false. Public universities, NASA and the military are the biggest innovators in the United States. All of them are a part of the government. But if you can evidence that US private companies are better innovators than our government or than those that come from other countries, feel free to provide evidence. I wait with bated breath.

No I am not a parody. Singapore definitely has regulations, but when overall compared to America, it has less, it even lacks a minimum wage.

Source (Economic Freedom Index): http://www.heritage.org/index/country/singapore

Who invented the iPhone: Apple

See: Apple vs. Samsung and Samsung vs. Apple

The first Stealth Airplane, the first supersonic jet, the first double decker jet (Boeing 747) were all made by guess what? Private Sector Companies. The military doesn't develop weapons, they start competitions for private sector companies for a new airplane/gun/tank or whatever. The innovation is done by private sector companies

I like how you forget most of these innovations wouldn't be possible without government contracts.

Even now, the Private Sector is already innovating like NASA, and Public Universities (take SpaceX and Spaceship Two as examples). Private Universities also make innovations just like public universities do.

It is a fact that innovation is largely done by the common folk, and not my some centralized governmental system.

Sure. And money just appears out of nowhere.

[The Flood]

Because healthcare is a right, not a luxury for the wealthy.

Privatized healthcare systems are immoral.

[Norstal]

Who invented the iPhone: Apple

Who invented the Google Glass: Google

Who made the first few leaps forward in Personal Computers: Apple/Microsoft/IBM

The first Stealth Airplane, the first supersonic jet, the first double decker jet (Boeing 747) were all made by guess what? Private Sector Companies. The military doesn't develop weapons, they start competitions for private sector companies for a new airplane/gun/tank or whatever. The innovation is done by private sector companies

Even now, the Private Sector is already innovating like NASA, and Public Universities (take SpaceX and Spaceship Two as examples). Private Universities also make innovations just like public universities do.

It is a fact that innovation is largely done by the common folk, and not my some centralized governmental system.

OK. Free enterprise and economic liberty are two great things. But what does that have to do with providing basic services to all citizens?

Absolutely nothing. The fact that we can make military innovations while providing free military defense to all citizens proves him wrong.

[Death Metal]

OK. Free enterprise and economic liberty are two great things. But what does that have to do with providing basic services to all citizens?

Absolutely nothing. The fact that we can make military innovations while providing free military defense to all citizens proves him wrong.

First of all "Apple invented the iPhone"

Second of all, every single one of the so-called private sector innovations he lists... EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN ONE. Comes from technology developed either by government research centers like DARPA or funded by them. For example, Google Glasses, that's based almost entrely AR tech that DARPA had been working on for 15 fucking years before Google made them for public use.

Private sector can't invent shit on a stick without DARPA/NASA.

[Norstal]

Absolutely nothing. The fact that we can make military innovations while providing free military defense to all citizens proves him wrong.

First of all "Apple invented the iPhone"

Second of all, every single one of the so-called private sector innovations he lists... EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN ONE. Comes from technology developed either by government research centers like DARPA or funded by them. For example, Google Glasses, that's based almost entrely AR tech that DARPA had been working on for 15 fucking years before Google made them for public use.

Private sector can't invent shit on a stick without DARPA/NASA.

The first PC from Apple came as an inspiration from Xerox PARC, which in turn came from the interface of radar technology used in WWII if I remember correctly.

I don't really bother with posters like Coldwater though, since there's nothing that can dissuade them from believing, without facts, that the government does nothing.

[Galloism]

Seriously, are you a parody? You keep listing Singapore as a bastion of lack of regulation and it's pretty much a perfect example of the opposite. Singapore is what happens when leaders don't treat regulation like it's evil and rather uses it as it needs to be used. Our government regulations are a mess for the same reason our taxes are a mess, because we don't accept that they are necessary and they should easy to meet and clear.

And your claims about American innovation are simply false. Public universities, NASA and the military are the biggest innovators in the United States. All of them are a part of the government. But if you can evidence that US private companies are better innovators than our government or than those that come from other countries, feel free to provide evidence. I wait with bated breath.

No I am not a parody. Singapore definitely has regulations, but when overall compared to America, it has less, it even lacks a minimum wage.

Source (Economic Freedom Index): http://www.heritage.org/index/country/singapore

Who invented the iPhone: Apple

Who invented the Google Glass: Google

Who made the first few leaps forward in Personal Computers: Apple/Microsoft/IBM

The first Stealth Airplane, the first supersonic jet, the first double decker jet (Boeing 747) were all made by guess what? Private Sector Companies. The military doesn't develop weapons, they start competitions for private sector companies for a new airplane/gun/tank or whatever. The innovation is done by private sector companies

Even now, the Private Sector is already innovating like NASA, and Public Universities (take SpaceX and Spaceship Two as examples). Private Universities also make innovations just like public universities do.

It is a fact that innovation is largely done by the common folk, and not my some centralized governmental system.

You know what I like about the economic freedom index? What criteria is used.

Namely:

"Singapore has traditionally been lauded for its lack of corruption, though transparency remains a concern. The government’s overwhelming success in court cases raises concerns about judicial independence. Lawsuits against opposition politicians and parties can bankrupt them. Contracts are secure, there is no expropriation, and commercial courts function well. Singapore has one of Asia’s best intellectual property rights regimes."

The government pursues private corruption via regulatory authority with great gusto. This intrusion of government regulation is seen as an increase to economic freedom.

Then:

"Launching a business takes three days and three procedures, and no minimum capital is required. There is no statutory minimum wage, but wage adjustments are guided by the National Wage Council. Inflation is under control despite the challenging external environment. The government funds generous housing and health care subsidy programs and influences other prices through regulation and state-linked enterprises."

This national wage council does lots of things - like trains workers and subsidizes wage increases to help raise the real wages of employees over time. Government intrusion in this regard has kept wages from falling much relative to inflation like the US.

http://www.mom.gov.sg/newsroom/Pages/Pr ... listid=503

This is an increase in economic freedom - via government intrusion.

[Occupied Deutschland]

...
Private sector can't invent shit on a stick without DARPA/NASA.

Riiiiiight, lets put our arms back inside the reality-coaster instead of letting them wave in obviously incorrect assertion-ville before they get ripped off by something.

[Death Metal]

...
Private sector can't invent shit on a stick without DARPA/NASA.

Riiiiiight, lets put our arms back inside the reality-coaster instead of letting them wave in obviously incorrect assertion-ville before they get ripped off by something.

Your snark detector's hyperbole chip isn't working.

[United Dependencies]

A number of reasons, some of which include the inelasticity of demand as well as the natural monopolies that hospitals tend to have.

The free market also does not adequately address the externalities presented by the market for healthcare.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Absolutely nothing. The fact that we can make military innovations while providing free military defense to all citizens proves him wrong.

First of all "Apple invented the iPhone"

Second of all, every single one of the so-called private sector innovations he lists... EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN ONE. Comes from technology developed either by government research centers like DARPA or funded by them. For example, Google Glasses, that's based almost entrely AR tech that DARPA had been working on for 15 fucking years before Google made them for public use.

Private sector can't invent shit on a stick without DARPA/NASA.

Stealth-Made by Lockheed

Boeing 747- Made by Boeing

PCs-Made by numerous tech companies

There is now a space industry, and it is growing, and they also innovate.

How about historical examples. How about Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla and the Wright Brothers, how about the compass and gunpowder in China, all of these were technically private sector inventions, and are not funded or inspired by the government.

[Chestaan]

Seriously, are you a parody? You keep listing Singapore as a bastion of lack of regulation and it's pretty much a perfect example of the opposite. Singapore is what happens when leaders don't treat regulation like it's evil and rather uses it as it needs to be used. Our government regulations are a mess for the same reason our taxes are a mess, because we don't accept that they are necessary and they should easy to meet and clear.

And your claims about American innovation are simply false. Public universities, NASA and the military are the biggest innovators in the United States. All of them are a part of the government. But if you can evidence that US private companies are better innovators than our government or than those that come from other countries, feel free to provide evidence. I wait with bated breath.

No I am not a parody. Singapore definitely has regulations, but when overall compared to America, it has less, it even lacks a minimum wage.

Source (Economic Freedom Index): http://www.heritage.org/index/country/singapore

Who invented the iPhone: Apple

Who invented the Google Glass: Google

Who made the first few leaps forward in Personal Computers: Apple/Microsoft/IBM

The first Stealth Airplane, the first supersonic jet, the first double decker jet (Boeing 747) were all made by guess what? Private Sector Companies. The military doesn't develop weapons, they start competitions for private sector companies for a new airplane/gun/tank or whatever. The innovation is done by private sector companies

Even now, the Private Sector is already innovating like NASA, and Public Universities (take SpaceX and Spaceship Two as examples). Private Universities also make innovations just like public universities do.

It is a fact that innovation is largely done by the common folk, and not my some centralized governmental system.

Who carries out the unprofitable primary research necessary for companies to make these innovations? Universities which are quite often publically funded

[Neutraligon]

No I am not a parody. Singapore definitely has regulations, but when overall compared to America, it has less, it even lacks a minimum wage.

Source (Economic Freedom Index): http://www.heritage.org/index/country/singapore

Who invented the iPhone: Apple

Who invented the Google Glass: Google

Who made the first few leaps forward in Personal Computers: Apple/Microsoft/IBM

The first Stealth Airplane, the first supersonic jet, the first double decker jet (Boeing 747) were all made by guess what? Private Sector Companies. The military doesn't develop weapons, they start competitions for private sector companies for a new airplane/gun/tank or whatever. The innovation is done by private sector companies

Even now, the Private Sector is already innovating like NASA, and Public Universities (take SpaceX and Spaceship Two as examples). Private Universities also make innovations just like public universities do.

It is a fact that innovation is largely done by the common folk, and not my some centralized governmental system.

Who carries out the unprofitable primary research necessary for companies to make these innovations? Universities which are quite often publically funded

or who have grants from departments like the department of defense, the FDA, etc.

THe first Stealth Airplane was funded by contract by DARPA
North American F-100 Super Sabre the first supersonic jet was funded and researched by the US airfore
The Boing 747 was in part funded by and studied under the airforce

So no you are wrong, they were all at least partially funded, or had studies started under government agencies.
Priate univversities depend on government grants
The private sector is based on the discoveries done by NASA

[Sociobiology]

No I am not a parody. Singapore definitely has regulations, but when overall compared to America, it has less, it even lacks a minimum wage.
it has higher taxes than the US, lower wages, higher income inequality, higher government spending on healthcare, and universal healthcare.
http://www.bit.ly/1pcRbgp


Who invented the iPhone: Apple

which was formed with help from government small business loans

Who invented the Google Glass: Google

google's algorithms (basically google) were created with funding from the US national science foundation.

Who made the first few leaps forward in Personal Computers: Apple/Microsoft/IBM

funded by NASA and DARPA, all using the microchip funded my NASA and eventually to use the Internet Invented under DARPA.

The first Stealth Airplane, the first supersonic jet, the first double decker jet (Boeing 747) were all made by guess what?

DARPA funding

The military doesn't develop weapons, they start competitions for private sector companies for a new airplane/gun/tank or whatever. The innovation is done by private sector companies

with public funding and based on public innovation.

Even now, the Private Sector is already innovating like NASA, and Public Universities (take SpaceX and Spaceship Two as examples). Private Universities also make innovations just like public universities do.

usually with initial public funding, because the private sector sucks at initial research funding, because it is speculative. Its not a coincidence that all the really expensive development in space travel was already done before Space X formed.

It is a fact that innovation is largely done by the common folk, and not my some centralized governmental system.

by common folk you mean people educated at public schools and publicly funded Universities and with their initial research paid for by government coffers. Private industry is great at late stage development but sucks at early stage invention and discovery.
Most of the important innovations of the last hundred years started with government funding.

[European Socialist Republic]

Who invented the iPhone: Apple

Ah yes, the iPhone. Except Apple didn't "invent" the iPhone (as in: it didn't invent the technologies necessary to build it). What Apple did was combining various already existing technologies. Some literature suggestion:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceupbin/ ... ion-might/
http://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2013 ... tor-myths/

[Alien Space Bats]

The first Stealth Airplane, the first supersonic jet, the first double decker jet (Boeing 747) were all made by guess what?

By private firms under government contract. The F-117 was built by Lockheed for the USAF; the Bell X1 was as well. The Boeing 747 was one of four designs that were submitted to the USAF in competition for the contract that would ultimately produce the Lockheed C-5A; after the contract was awarded to Lockheed, Boeing took their own design and went to market with it as a civilian carrier.

The military doesn't develop weapons, they start competitions for private sector companies for a new airplane/gun/tank or whatever. The innovation is done by private sector companies

Which hardly makes such innovation a good example of the dynamism of the free market, since such competitions involve meeting a series of design specifications set by the government. If you did that in the realm of health care, do you know what you'd have?

You'd have the Affordable Care Act, that's what (i.e., private insurance offered to the public in accordance with government specifications and [in many cases] mostly or wholly paid for with government dollars).

IOW, such examples do not advance your argument.

[Mavorpen]

The first Stealth Airplane, the first supersonic jet, the first double decker jet (Boeing 747) were all made by guess what?

By private firms under government contract. The F-117 was built by Lockheed for the USAF; the Bell X1 was as well. The Boeing 747 was one of four designs that were submitted to the USAF in competition for the contract that would ultimately produce the Lockheed C-5A; after the contract was awarded to Lockheed, Boeing took their own design and went to market with it as a civilian carrier.

The military doesn't develop weapons, they start competitions for private sector companies for a new airplane/gun/tank or whatever. The innovation is done by private sector companies

Which hardly makes such innovation a good example of the dynamism of the free market, since such competitions involve meeting a series of design specifications set by the government. If you did that in the realm of health care, do you know what you'd have?

You'd have the Affordable Care Act, that's what (i.e., private insurance offered to the public in accordance with government specifications and [in many cases] mostly or wholly paid for with government dollars).

IOW, such examples do not advance your argument.

I don't think Socio posted those things...

[Alien Space Bats]

You are SO right. Corrected, to expose the guilty.

[Omorov-Nier]

No I am not a parody. Singapore definitely has regulations, but when overall compared to America, it has less, it even lacks a minimum wage.

Source (Economic Freedom Index): http://www.heritage.org/index/country/singapore

Who invented the iPhone: Apple

See: Apple vs. Samsung and Samsung vs. Apple

Your point being? Samsung is also a private company.

The first Stealth Airplane, the first supersonic jet, the first double decker jet (Boeing 747) were all made by guess what? Private Sector Companies. The military doesn't develop weapons, they start competitions for private sector companies for a new airplane/gun/tank or whatever. The innovation is done by private sector companies

I like how you forget most of these innovations wouldn't be possible without government contracts.

I like how you forget that the government isn't the only one that needs these things, so they would show up eventually, without it, since there is demand for them.

Even now, the Private Sector is already innovating like NASA, and Public Universities (take SpaceX and Spaceship Two as examples). Private Universities also make innovations just like public universities do.

It is a fact that innovation is largely done by the common folk, and not my some centralized governmental system.

Sure. And money just appears out of nowhere.

No, it comes from loans. That's what they are there for dumbass.

[Farnhamia]

See: Apple vs. Samsung and Samsung vs. Apple

Your point being? Samsung is also a private company.

I like how you forget most of these innovations wouldn't be possible without government contracts.

I like how you forget that the government isn't the only one that needs these things, so they would show up eventually, without it, since there is demand for them.

Sure. And money just appears out of nowhere.

No, it comes from loans. That's what they are there for dumbass.

You've got a clean record so I'm going to let this one slide but name-calling is flaming and the only one who gets burnt by flaming is you. Knock it off.

[Kelinfort]

See: Apple vs. Samsung and Samsung vs. Apple

Your point being? Samsung is also a private company.

I like how you forget most of these innovations wouldn't be possible without government contracts.

I like how you forget that the government isn't the only one that needs these things, so they would show up eventually, without it, since there is demand for them.

Sure. And money just appears out of nowhere.

No, it comes from loans. That's what they are there for dumbass.

Much of the primary funding comes from universities, which in turn receive funding from the goverment. Many of these algorithms were created by the government and then used in technology.

The private sector didn't just innovate these by themselves.

[Omorov-Nier]

Your point being? Samsung is also a private company.


I like how you forget that the government isn't the only one that needs these things, so they would show up eventually, without it, since there is demand for them.



No, it comes from loans. That's what they are there for dumbass.

Much of the primary funding comes from universities, which in turn receive funding from the goverment. Many of these algorithms were created by the government and then used in technology.

The private sector didn't just innovate these by themselves.

The funding could have come from private banks and the algorithms would have eventually appeared, if there was demand for them.

Did you actually read my post?

[European Socialist Republic]

Much of the primary funding comes from universities, which in turn receive funding from the goverment. Many of these algorithms were created by the government and then used in technology.

The private sector didn't just innovate these by themselves.

The funding could have come from private banks and the algorithms would have eventually appeared, if there was demand for them.

Did you actually read my post?

Could, would. I'm seeing alot of speculation and no evidence.

[Omorov-Nier]

The funding could have come from private banks and the algorithms would have eventually appeared, if there was demand for them.

Did you actually read my post?

Could, would. I'm seeing alot of speculation and no evidence.

This entire thread is speculation with no evidence. Besides, anyone with basic economic knowledge knows what I said is true.