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Why can't free markets provide healthcare?

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Reaganiffic
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Why can't free markets provide healthcare?

Postby Reaganiffic » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:37 pm

Too often I hear the arguments from liberals that healthcare is somehow different than buying potatoes or an ipod, that the free market cannot work. I think these arguments are a load of rubbish.

Information asymmetry exists in all markets, you don't know where your potatoes come from or how much pollution making them costs. There are various concentrations in various industries, many of them successfully run by the free market. If you buy a parachute and you choose wrong you still die, but the free market runs the parachute industry with success. So why not free markets?

Could it be that liberals don't want to give the American way a chance before they go around making things more socialist? I sense some bias at work here.

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Rebellious Fishermen
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Postby Rebellious Fishermen » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:39 pm

I don't mind a public healthcare plan as long as the private healthcare sector is left alone.

Apparently that's not something anyone can accept with this all or nothing attitude.

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Republic of Coldwater
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Postby Republic of Coldwater » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:41 pm

They obviously can with competition and a wider array of customer choice. If we look at Hong Kong or Singapore, both of which have an unregulated healthcare private sector, competition within the sector has driven down prices and increased the quality of healthcare amongst the populace of the respective city-states. Lichtenstein also has free-market healthcare, and the quality is great whilst the price is low. America's problem is that there are regulations on the HealthCare Sectors and healthcare companies can't compete across state lines, which increases prices. If we can eliminate the regulations, we can mimic the effect that free market healthcare has had on Singapore, Hong Kong and Lichtenstein.

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Lalaki
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Postby Lalaki » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:41 pm

If you can't afford to own a house or buy an iPod, that won't affect you. You can still work, pay the bills, etc.

If you can't afford health care and get into an accident, there it is. Think of the millions of Americans without health coverage who are at risk for diseases beyond their control.

However, I believe in providing universal health care through a market system. Similar to Switzerland, if you will. Plus a public option.
Last edited by Lalaki on Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Grim Reaper
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Postby The Grim Reaper » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:41 pm

Because healthcare is a public good. Someone getting treated for Ebola with taxpayer money is a net benefit to society.


The iPod is not. The potato might be, if the consumer can't afford a nutritious diet otherwise.
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Republic of Coldwater
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Postby Republic of Coldwater » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:42 pm

Rebellious Fishermen wrote:I don't mind a public healthcare plan as long as the private healthcare sector is left alone.

Apparently that's not something anyone can accept with this all or nothing attitude.

I doubt that is possible as public healthcare will drive potential customers into the public healthcare and hurt the private healthcare sector, which will subsequently hurt the far more flexible private sector.

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Reaganiffic
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Postby Reaganiffic » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:43 pm

The Grim Reaper wrote:Because healthcare is a public good. Someone getting treated for Ebola with taxpayer money is a net benefit to society.


The iPod is not. The potato might be, if the consumer can't afford a nutritious diet otherwise.

So should we collectivize farms?

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United States of The One Percent
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Postby United States of The One Percent » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:43 pm

First, create a free market somewhere. Then we'll see if it can provide healthcare, or anything else for that matter.

btw do a little research on outcomes and costs before boosting for "the American way," especially in healthcare.
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Reaganiffic
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Postby Reaganiffic » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:44 pm

United States of The One Percent wrote:First, create a free market somewhere. Then we'll see if it can provide healthcare, or anything else for that matter.

btw do a little research on outcomes and costs before boosting for "the American way," especially in healthcare.

It may cost more but at least we don't have those terrible Canadian wait times. It's like saying that we should ban three-star Michelin restaurants because they are more expensive than McDonalds.

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Avenio
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Postby Avenio » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:45 pm

Lots of externalities and the inherent inability to square a profit motivation with providing effective and humane health services.

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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:46 pm

Reaganiffic wrote:
The Grim Reaper wrote:Because healthcare is a public good. Someone getting treated for Ebola with taxpayer money is a net benefit to society.


The iPod is not. The potato might be, if the consumer can't afford a nutritious diet otherwise.

So should we collectivize farms?


How the fuck did you get that out of what Grim said?

What are you even proposing in this thread?
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Reaganiffic
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Postby Reaganiffic » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:46 pm

Avenio wrote:Lots of externalities and the inherent inability to square a profit motivation with providing effective and humane health services.

Why can't we say the same thing for agriculture?

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Lalaki
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Postby Lalaki » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:46 pm

Reaganiffic wrote:
United States of The One Percent wrote:First, create a free market somewhere. Then we'll see if it can provide healthcare, or anything else for that matter.

btw do a little research on outcomes and costs before boosting for "the American way," especially in healthcare.

It may cost more but at least we don't have those terrible Canadian wait times. It's like saying that we should ban three-star Michelin restaurants because they are more expensive than McDonalds.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... _blog.html

Most countries with universal health care have shorter waiting periods than the United States. Canada happens to be an exception.
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Very supportive of gay rights, a public option in health care, paid leave, increasing tax credits, making two-year colleges debt free, and guaranteed child care. Electoral reform (putting a stop to gerrymandering and getting money out of politics) is crucial. I'm against the far left and right. Pro-liberal internationalism.

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Reaganiffic
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Postby Reaganiffic » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:47 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Reaganiffic wrote:So should we collectivize farms?


How the fuck did you get that out of what Grim said?

What are you even proposing in this thread?

Every argument that can be said for socializing healthcare can be said for any other product. We know that a command economy is bad, therefore arguments for socializing healthcare are wrong. It's that simple, and it's the truth.

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Republic of Coldwater
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Postby Republic of Coldwater » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:47 pm

Lalaki wrote:If you can't afford to own a house or buy an iPod, that won't affect you. You can still work, pay the bills, etc.

If you can't afford health care and get into an accident, there it is. Think of the millions of Americans without health coverage who are at risk for diseases beyond their control.

However, I believe in providing universal health care through a market system. Similar to Switzerland, if you will. Plus a public option.

If you can afford taxes that can pay for health insurance, protection and other necessities then you are more than able to afford private health insurance. The problem is that we have an income tax that costs more than the rest of your living costs. We take that out of the equation, and naturally more people will become insured.

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Postby Risottia » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:48 pm

Who said the private sector can't provide healthcare?
It can.

Only at higher costs, lower efficiency and to less people than the public sector, as anyone can see from the comparison between Europe, Canada and America.
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Lalaki
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Postby Lalaki » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:48 pm

Reaganiffic wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
How the fuck did you get that out of what Grim said?

What are you even proposing in this thread?

Every argument that can be said for socializing healthcare can be said for any other product. We know that a command economy is bad, therefore arguments for socializing healthcare are wrong. It's that simple, and it's the truth.


Don't take a generalized approach to everything. What works for some things don't work for others. Try looking at the third way.
Do you care about your democracy? Then get active in the political process! Volunteer for a campaign, join a government commission, organize for a political party, and run for office.

"If I seem too passionate, it's because I care. If I come on strong, it's because I feel strongly. And if I push too hard, it's because things aren't happening fast enough." -Leslie Knope, Parks and Recreation

Very supportive of gay rights, a public option in health care, paid leave, increasing tax credits, making two-year colleges debt free, and guaranteed child care. Electoral reform (putting a stop to gerrymandering and getting money out of politics) is crucial. I'm against the far left and right. Pro-liberal internationalism.

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Occupied Deutschland
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:49 pm

Because people assume healthcare is a right and wish to pay reduced or negligible amounts for it, regardless of market equilibrium.
Last edited by Occupied Deutschland on Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:49 pm

Reaganiffic wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
How the fuck did you get that out of what Grim said?

What are you even proposing in this thread?

Every argument that can be said for socializing healthcare can be said for any other product. We know that a command economy is bad, therefore arguments for socializing healthcare are wrong. It's that simple, and it's the truth.


I'm not sure if I should point out that socializing healthcare doesn't mean socialism, or if that argument cannot apply to most other products.

Universal Healthcare is good.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Republic of Coldwater
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Postby Republic of Coldwater » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:49 pm

Lalaki wrote:
Reaganiffic wrote:It may cost more but at least we don't have those terrible Canadian wait times. It's like saying that we should ban three-star Michelin restaurants because they are more expensive than McDonalds.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... _blog.html

Most countries with universal health care have shorter waiting periods than the United States. Canada happens to be an exception.

How about countries such as Hong Kong and Singapore with true, not phony free market healthcare?

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The Grim Reaper
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Postby The Grim Reaper » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:50 pm

Reaganiffic wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
How the fuck did you get that out of what Grim said?

What are you even proposing in this thread?

Every argument that can be said for socializing healthcare can be said for any other product. We know that a command economy is bad, therefore arguments for socializing healthcare are wrong. It's that simple, and it's the truth.


Let's take this one step at a time.

Firstly, apply that argument to iPods, and then we talk about potatoes.
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Lalaki
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Postby Lalaki » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:50 pm

Republic of Coldwater wrote:
Lalaki wrote:If you can't afford to own a house or buy an iPod, that won't affect you. You can still work, pay the bills, etc.

If you can't afford health care and get into an accident, there it is. Think of the millions of Americans without health coverage who are at risk for diseases beyond their control.

However, I believe in providing universal health care through a market system. Similar to Switzerland, if you will. Plus a public option.

If you can afford taxes that can pay for health insurance, protection and other necessities then you are more than able to afford private health insurance. The problem is that we have an income tax that costs more than the rest of your living costs. We take that out of the equation, and naturally more people will become insured.


And what happens to the American lower class?

We need a compromise. Like I've said before, we should provide universal health care under a market system, with a public option included.
Do you care about your democracy? Then get active in the political process! Volunteer for a campaign, join a government commission, organize for a political party, and run for office.

"If I seem too passionate, it's because I care. If I come on strong, it's because I feel strongly. And if I push too hard, it's because things aren't happening fast enough." -Leslie Knope, Parks and Recreation

Very supportive of gay rights, a public option in health care, paid leave, increasing tax credits, making two-year colleges debt free, and guaranteed child care. Electoral reform (putting a stop to gerrymandering and getting money out of politics) is crucial. I'm against the far left and right. Pro-liberal internationalism.

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Reaganiffic
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Postby Reaganiffic » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:51 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Reaganiffic wrote:Every argument that can be said for socializing healthcare can be said for any other product. We know that a command economy is bad, therefore arguments for socializing healthcare are wrong. It's that simple, and it's the truth.


I'm not sure if I should point out that socializing healthcare doesn't mean socialism, or if that argument cannot apply to most other products.

Universal Healthcare is good.

Why can't those arguments be applied to other products? Other products have similar problems as healthcare but the free market still manages to work its magic.

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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:51 pm

Reaganiffic wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
How the fuck did you get that out of what Grim said?

What are you even proposing in this thread?

Every argument that can be said for socializing healthcare can be said for any other product. We know that a command economy is bad, therefore arguments for socializing healthcare are wrong. It's that simple, and it's the truth.


But we also know that public education is something the public tends to support almost ubiquitously. So why does the public struggle to consider healthcare in the same way?
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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:52 pm

Reaganiffic wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
I'm not sure if I should point out that socializing healthcare doesn't mean socialism, or if that argument cannot apply to most other products.

Universal Healthcare is good.

Why can't those arguments be applied to other products? Other products have similar problems as healthcare but the free market still manages to work its magic.


If you mean it's cheap, inefficient, profit-driven magic, then yes it does.

However, it's not disputable. The free market fails at ensuring that everyone can get healthcare, so the state must intervene.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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