GUN TALK (Favorite guns discussion thread)

[Yagon]

Suppose one where in a dusty/dirty environment where maintaining proper cleaning of a weapon were difficult.

Would a revolver be more reliable in such instances than a semi-automatic?

[Pax Nerdvana]

Suppose one where in a dusty/dirty environment where maintaining proper cleaning of a weapon were difficult.

Would a revolver be more reliable in such instances than a semi-automatic?

I would say a revolver would probably be a little more reliable, due to the fact that semi-autos tend to have delicate mechanisms that get gummed up.

[Yagon]

Suppose one where in a dusty/dirty environment where maintaining proper cleaning of a weapon were difficult.

Would a revolver be more reliable in such instances than a semi-automatic?

I would say a revolver would probably be a little more reliable, due to the fact that semi-autos tend to have delicate mechanisms that get gummed up.

I was thinking something similar. Although the revolver has moving parts/springs, etc, they may be overall simpler than the slide, etc, in a semi-auto. I suppose it would take more information to know if that reliability trade-off were greater than the utility loss of fewer rounds, slower to reload, etc.

[Gig em Aggies]

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/783 ... B7392FDC00

^ this would be better then any revolver

[Yagon]

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/7832/9385821_1.jpg?v=8CCABB7392FDC00

^ this would be better then any revolver

I apologies, I don't know what it is. Its ammunition appears to just be solid projectiles, no casing or propellant? Some kind of spring loaded weapon?

[Gig em Aggies]

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/7832/9385821_1.jpg?v=8CCABB7392FDC00

^ this would be better then any revolver

I apologies, I don't know what it is. Its ammunition appears to just be solid projectiles, no casing or propellant? Some kind of spring loaded weapon?

It's called a gyro jet ---> http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/MBA_Gyrojet

[Grinning Dragon]

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/7832/9385821_1.jpg?v=8CCABB7392FDC00

^ this would be better then any revolver

I apologies, I don't know what it is. Its ammunition appears to just be solid projectiles, no casing or propellant? Some kind of spring loaded weapon?

Tis a gyrojet pistol.
BAH- Ninja'd

[Telconi]

I would say a revolver would probably be a little more reliable, due to the fact that semi-autos tend to have delicate mechanisms that get gummed up.

I was thinking something similar. Although the revolver has moving parts/springs, etc, they may be overall simpler than the slide, etc, in a semi-auto. I suppose it would take more information to know if that reliability trade-off were greater than the utility loss of fewer rounds, slower to reload, etc.

If you've ever dissassembled a DA revolver and a modern auto, you'd realize that the revolver of today is more of a clockwork nightmare than an auto. Long story short, a semi auto (especially a striker fired) has only one fine mechanical function. And two gross mechanical functions. The fine function is the trigger mechanism. Which isny really all that complex in a striker fired pistol. The two gross functions are the locking recoil system, and the magazine system, both of which are very resistant to fowling, because theres no really small moving parts.

A modern revolver on the other hand, has two fine functions, which go hand in hand. And a single gross function. The two fine functions are the trigger mechanism, (more complex than our striker pistol on account of being DA/SA and hammer fired.) And secondly is the timing system. This is the system that rotates the cylinder and correctly lines it up with the barrel and hammer. This system is linked to the trigger pack, because in a DA revolver the trigger can perform both functions. The gross mechanism is the cylinder release and crane for reloading.

What this translates to as far as field expediency is two things

First off, the semi-auto is more likely to have foreign matter enter it's workings, but will resist foreign particles better. If it does jam due to foreign particles, its usually not catastrophic. And can be rectified by a simple field strip, and a quick shake 90+% of the time. This can be done in most modern semis without tools, or with readily available tools like a spent cartridge casing.

The revolver, is the opposite. Far less likely for foreign particles to enter the action of the weapon, but if they do it is far less resistant to it. Far more often than not, a foreign particle entering the revolver is going to cause either a catastrophic timing failure (which while unlikely, can destroy the gun, your hand, or even you). Or, it will seize completely, and be useless without tools and a decently knowledgable gunsmith on hand.

If I were in a dirty or dusty environment, far from an armory, and had only my knowledge and makeshift tools for weapon maintainance, I would certainly pick a semi-auto striker fired gun. Something akin to the Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, or Springfield XD series, to name the "big three" in that category.

[Yagon]

I apologies, I don't know what it is. Its ammunition appears to just be solid projectiles, no casing or propellant? Some kind of spring loaded weapon?

It's called a gyro jet ---> http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/MBA_Gyrojet

Oh dear...ammo at $100+ per shot?

[Yagon]

If you've ever dissassembled a DA revolver and a modern auto, you'd realize that the revolver of today is more of a clockwork nightmare than an auto. Long story short, a semi auto (especially a striker fired) has only one fine mechanical function. And two gross mechanical functions. The fine function is the trigger mechanism. Which isny really all that complex in a striker fired pistol. The two gross functions are the locking recoil system, and the magazine system, both of which are very resistant to fowling, because theres no really small moving parts.

A modern revolver on the other hand, has two fine functions, which go hand in hand. And a single gross function. The two fine functions are the trigger mechanism, (more complex than our striker pistol on account of being DA/SA and hammer fired.) And secondly is the timing system. This is the system that rotates the cylinder and correctly lines it up with the barrel and hammer. This system is linked to the trigger pack, because in a DA revolver the trigger can perform both functions. The gross mechanism is the cylinder release and crane for reloading.

What this translates to as far as field expediency is two things

First off, the semi-auto is more likely to have foreign matter enter it's workings, but will resist foreign particles better. If it does jam due to foreign particles, its usually not catastrophic. And can be rectified by a simple field strip, and a quick shake 90+% of the time. This can be done in most modern semis without tools, or with readily available tools like a spent cartridge casing.

The revolver, is the opposite. Far less likely for foreign particles to enter the action of the weapon, but if they do it is far less resistant to it. Far more often than not, a foreign particle entering the revolver is going to cause either a catastrophic timing failure (which while unlikely, can destroy the gun, your hand, or even you). Or, it will seize completely, and be useless without tools and a decently knowledgable gunsmith on hand.

If I were in a dirty or dusty environment, far from an armory, and had only my knowledge and makeshift tools for weapon maintainance, I would certainly pick a semi-auto striker fired gun. Something akin to the Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, or Springfield XD series, to name the "big three" in that category.

Thank you, this is extremely useful. (Side question: Would a single action revolver offset any of this?)

Would the Canik (striker fired semi auto) be comparable to the three you describe?

[Telconi]

If you've ever dissassembled a DA revolver and a modern auto, you'd realize that the revolver of today is more of a clockwork nightmare than an auto. Long story short, a semi auto (especially a striker fired) has only one fine mechanical function. And two gross mechanical functions. The fine function is the trigger mechanism. Which isny really all that complex in a striker fired pistol. The two gross functions are the locking recoil system, and the magazine system, both of which are very resistant to fowling, because theres no really small moving parts.

A modern revolver on the other hand, has two fine functions, which go hand in hand. And a single gross function. The two fine functions are the trigger mechanism, (more complex than our striker pistol on account of being DA/SA and hammer fired.) And secondly is the timing system. This is the system that rotates the cylinder and correctly lines it up with the barrel and hammer. This system is linked to the trigger pack, because in a DA revolver the trigger can perform both functions. The gross mechanism is the cylinder release and crane for reloading.

What this translates to as far as field expediency is two things

First off, the semi-auto is more likely to have foreign matter enter it's workings, but will resist foreign particles better. If it does jam due to foreign particles, its usually not catastrophic. And can be rectified by a simple field strip, and a quick shake 90+% of the time. This can be done in most modern semis without tools, or with readily available tools like a spent cartridge casing.

The revolver, is the opposite. Far less likely for foreign particles to enter the action of the weapon, but if they do it is far less resistant to it. Far more often than not, a foreign particle entering the revolver is going to cause either a catastrophic timing failure (which while unlikely, can destroy the gun, your hand, or even you). Or, it will seize completely, and be useless without tools and a decently knowledgable gunsmith on hand.

If I were in a dirty or dusty environment, far from an armory, and had only my knowledge and makeshift tools for weapon maintainance, I would certainly pick a semi-auto striker fired gun. Something akin to the Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, or Springfield XD series, to name the "big three" in that category.

Thank you, this is extremely useful. (Side question: Would a single action revolver offset any of this?)

Would the Canik (striker fired semi auto) be comparable to the three you describe?

Single action revolver is marginally better, but not by much in the reliability department.

Yes, the Canik fits the same bill as its more common cousins I named.

[Yagon]

Single action revolver is marginally better, but not by much in the reliability department.

Yes, the Canik fits the same bill as its more common cousins I named.

Thank you greatly. I'm reading up on Glocks, so far they seem to have a superlative reputation for reliability?

[Telconi]

Single action revolver is marginally better, but not by much in the reliability department.

Yes, the Canik fits the same bill as its more common cousins I named.

Thank you greatly. I'm reading up on Glocks, so far they seem to have a superlative reputation for reliability?

They do, and while I prefer Glock, I wouldnt say its categorically better than the M&P or XD pistols. Glocks reputation for reliabilty comes from it being the first major handgun in the category, and therefore being compared to older style automatics which are at a categorical disadvantage. And from the fact that Glock had a stellar PR and advertising department that did a great job of capitalizing upon the idea.

[Yagon]

Thank you greatly. I'm reading up on Glocks, so far they seem to have a superlative reputation for reliability?

They do, and while I prefer Glock, I wouldnt say its categorically better than the M&P or XD pistols. Glocks reputation for reliabilty comes from it being the first major handgun in the category, and therefore being compared to older style automatics which are at a categorical disadvantage. And from the fact that Glock had a stellar PR and advertising department that did a great job of capitalizing upon the idea.[/quote]

That makes sense. I think I might look at the Canik 9mm, then, since it looks like I could get two of them for not much more than one of the Glocks.

[Telconi]

Thank you greatly. I'm reading up on Glocks, so far they seem to have a superlative reputation for reliability?

They do, and while I prefer Glock, I wouldnt say its categorically better than the M&P or XD pistols. Glocks reputation for reliabilty comes from it being the first major handgun in the category, and therefore being compared to older style automatics which are at a categorical disadvantage. And from the fact that Glock had a stellar PR and advertising department that did a great job of capitalizing upon the idea.

That makes sense. I think I might look at the Canik 9mm, then, since it looks like I could get two of them for not much more than one of the Glocks.[/quote]

Only thing I'd reccomend is looking into the QC. Ive never seen a Canik in person, and poor manufacturing can undermine the reliability of an otherwise solid design.

[Yagon]

Only thing I'd reccomend is looking into the QC. Ive never seen a Canik in person, and poor manufacturing can undermine the reliability of an otherwise solid design.

Hmmm, that makes sense. As a relatively new weapon (that I know of), it may not have the track record that the big three you described have been around long enough to have.

[Telconi]

Only thing I'd reccomend is looking into the QC. Ive never seen a Canik in person, and poor manufacturing can undermine the reliability of an otherwise solid design.

Hmmm, that makes sense. As a relatively new weapon (that I know of), it may not have the track record that the big three you described have been around long enough to have.

Price can be an indicator. While it seems cool to get a Canik for half the price of the Glock, there's a reason it's half the price.

[Yagon]

Hmmm, that makes sense. As a relatively new weapon (that I know of), it may not have the track record that the big three you described have been around long enough to have.

Price can be an indicator. While it seems cool to get a Canik for half the price of the Glock, there's a reason it's half the price.

True, it seems not all of the price differential would be solely Glock's first of type and good PR, it would seem the higher price in a manufacturing context would mean more resources for quality control and design refinement.

It would be interesting to see if in 15-20 years the Caniks caught up with the Glocks (sort of as Hyundai caught up somewhat to Toyota), but that's outside the range of my purposes, since I intend to buy within the next month.

If I bought two of the Caniks, I could reason that when the first breaks down I'd have the second, but if they are more prone to break down the offset might not be enough. Plus I might be tempted to the junevile urge to fire one in each hand like in a John Woo movie, then I just have to feel silly.

It looks like there's an "L" version of the Glock with a 6 inch barrel, and since my needs don't require much concealed carry, I wonder how much the extra barrel length provides in utility.

More accuracy? Will the longer barrel result in the round having more time under influence of the expanding gas give me more muzzle velocity?

[Telconi]

Price can be an indicator. While it seems cool to get a Canik for half the price of the Glock, there's a reason it's half the price.

True, it seems not all of the price differential would be solely Glock's first of type and good PR, it would seem the higher price in a manufacturing context would mean more resources for quality control and design refinement.

It would be interesting to see if in 15-20 years the Caniks caught up with the Glocks (sort of as Hyundai caught up somewhat to Toyota), but that's outside the range of my purposes, since I intend to buy within the next month.

If I bought two of the Caniks, I could reason that when the first breaks down I'd have the second, but if they are more prone to break down the offset might not be enough. Plus I might be tempted to the junevile urge to fire one in each hand like in a John Woo movie, then I just have to feel silly.

It looks like there's an "L" version of the Glock with a 6 inch barrel, and since my needs don't require much concealed carry, I wonder how much the extra barrel length provides in utility.

More accuracy? Will the longer barrel result in the round having more time under influence of the expanding gas give me more muzzle velocity?

The L, or the comp versions of the Glocks are Going to offer more practical accuracy, slightly improved velocity, and less felt recoil. They are, however, generally more expensive than the 'normal' Glocks. And you lose on carry comfort, even if not trying to conceal carrying a larger handgun can make holster use and the draw mechanics more akward.

[Yagon]

The L, or the comp versions of the Glocks are Going to offer more practical accuracy, slightly improved velocity, and less felt recoil. They are, however, generally more expensive than the 'normal' Glocks. And you lose on carry comfort, even if not trying to conceal carrying a larger handgun can make holster use and the draw mechanics more akward.

Is the accuracy improvement much? I am not an accomplished shooter, generally 6" groups at 50 ft slow fire with a handgun, so I may not have the skill to exploit the added weapon accuracy.

For recoil, I find it fairly manageable with a 9mm.

I hadn't considered draw mechanics (I did some very very basic draw training in an NRA pistol course twenty years ago, not sure how much I've retained).

[Telconi]

The L, or the comp versions of the Glocks are Going to offer more practical accuracy, slightly improved velocity, and less felt recoil. They are, however, generally more expensive than the 'normal' Glocks. And you lose on carry comfort, even if not trying to conceal carrying a larger handgun can make holster use and the draw mechanics more akward.

Is the accuracy improvement much? I am not an accomplished shooter, generally 6" groups at 50 ft slow fire with a handgun, so I may not have the skill to exploit the added weapon accuracy.

For recoil, I find it fairly manageable with a 9mm.

I hadn't considered draw mechanics (I did some very very basic draw training in an NRA pistol course twenty years ago, not sure how much I've retained).

The accuracy is going to come from having a higher sight radius. The gun is not more mechanically accurate. Its just better practically because the sight geometry makes a 1mm deviation from ideal less of a differecent at range than a 1mm deviation on a gun with a sight radius a couple inches shorter.

And as someone who regularly carries handguns with barrels ranging from 2 to 6 inches, the difference is noticable, and gets worse at higher lengths.

[Yagon]

The accuracy is going to come from having a higher sight radius. The gun is not more mechanically accurate. Its just better practically because the sight geometry makes a 1mm deviation from ideal less of a differecent at range than a 1mm deviation on a gun with a sight radius a couple inches shorter.

And as someone who regularly carries handguns with barrels ranging from 2 to 6 inches, the difference is noticable, and gets worse at higher lengths.

So, should avoid one of those giant 10" hunting revolvers, then....

[Telconi]

The accuracy is going to come from having a higher sight radius. The gun is not more mechanically accurate. Its just better practically because the sight geometry makes a 1mm deviation from ideal less of a differecent at range than a 1mm deviation on a gun with a sight radius a couple inches shorter.

And as someone who regularly carries handguns with barrels ranging from 2 to 6 inches, the difference is noticable, and gets worse at higher lengths.

So, should avoid one of those giant 10" hunting revolvers, then....

Unless you're looking to do some revolver hunting...

Look at what other people use for a given situation. Despite the potential accuracy increases, cops amd soldiers use generally full size handguns with 4-5ish inch barrels. In the Glock world that's generally the 17 in 9X19. If you're looking for an openly carried defensive pistol, do what the professionals do. You don't see cops with Glock 17L, or 34 pistols.

[Nation of Warfare]

I'd prefer Berretta over Glock.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I'd prefer Berretta over Glock.

I too enjoy poorly made Italian junk