Would you rather live in the Soviet system or the American?

[Conscentia]

American - it'd allow me to easily leave to go to a country that knows what it's doing.

[Constantinopolis]

My mother in law was a Russian Warsaw Pact interpreter who defected to the west.

A significant percentage of NSG's posting base was born after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and therefore doesn't really have a proper basis for comparison. But anyone who thinks they'd have been better off living under the Soviet Union than living in a western industrialised society contemporary to the Soviet Union - including the United States - should talk to my mother in law; they'd likely find it a sobering experience.

Is that anecdotal evidence? Of course it is; but one of the central aspects of life in the Soviet bloc was the sheer grinding mundanity of everyday life, and the equal distribution of low-grade misery across social hierarchies.

One of the few exceptions to the above rule might have been entry-level members of major ballet companies, who were probably better off in the Soviet system compared to their western counterparts; but I doubt they're a very big demographic.

A significant percentage of NSG's posting base consists of young people living in the United States who are probably having trouble finding any good job (or even a stable job), who most likely have to deal with enormous student debt, who don't have health insurance or worry about losing their insurance in the future, and who are probably wondering how they're ever going to be able to afford their own home.

You can see why a system that gives you a guaranteed job, an apartment, and free education and healthcare might seem more attractive than what they've currently got. Even if they have to put up with grinding mundanity and lower standards of living than what they might get in the US. Economic security with low living standards can be better than an insecure life where you may or may not get higher living standards (especially if you think your chances of getting those high living standards are quite low).

By comparison, a Cold War-era defector from the Warsaw Pact would have a much better experience in the American system than your average present-day young person. The defector would have no problem finding a job with good health insurance, and didn't have to worry about student debt (because he/she already got a free education back home).

[Constantinopolis]

On a related note, we should remember that the American economic system during the Cold War era was far better than the American economic system today. Taxes on the rich were much higher and funded a much wider array of government services. Welfare payments and Social Security payments were actually high enough to live on. The minimum wage was higher (adjusted for inflation, of course). Healthcare and university education, although not free, were vastly cheaper than they are today. Good, stable jobs were much easier to find, and it was common for a person to spend their entire working career with the same employer, instead of being perpetually on the job hunt and jumping from one crappy job to another like so many people today (especially young people).

In other words, the degree of economic security provided by the Cold War-era American system was much higher than today, so the difference between the American and Soviet systems in this regard was smaller, so you can see why people were not particularly impressed by the Soviet system's offer of security and stability back then.

But today? Today the security and stability of the Soviet system looks pretty damn impressive.

[Immoren]

I choose The Rapture *nods*...
...Wait a moment...

[Novus America]

My mother in law was a Russian Warsaw Pact interpreter who defected to the west.

A significant percentage of NSG's posting base was born after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and therefore doesn't really have a proper basis for comparison. But anyone who thinks they'd have been better off living under the Soviet Union than living in a western industrialised society contemporary to the Soviet Union - including the United States - should talk to my mother in law; they'd likely find it a sobering experience.

Is that anecdotal evidence? Of course it is; but one of the central aspects of life in the Soviet bloc was the sheer grinding mundanity of everyday life, and the equal distribution of low-grade misery across social hierarchies.

One of the few exceptions to the above rule might have been entry-level members of major ballet companies, who were probably better off in the Soviet system compared to their western counterparts; but I doubt they're a very big demographic.

A significant percentage of NSG's posting base consists of young people living in the United States who are probably having trouble finding any good job (or even a stable job), who most likely have to deal with enormous student debt, who don't have health insurance or worry about losing their insurance in the future, and who are probably wondering how they're ever going to be able to afford their own home.

You can see why a system that gives you a guaranteed job, an apartment, and free education and healthcare might seem more attractive than what they've currently got. Even if they have to put up with grinding mundanity and lower standards of living than what they might get in the US. Economic security with low living standards can be better than an insecure life where you may or may not get higher living standards (especially if you think your chances of getting those high living standards are quite low).

By comparison, a Cold War-era defector from the Warsaw Pact would have a much better experience in the American system than your average present-day young person. The defector would have no problem finding a job with good health insurance, and didn't have to worry about student debt (because he/she already got a free education back home).

Of course they are also falsely assuming they would be college educated under the Soviet System. They clearly do not understand how the system worked. Under the Soviet System you were guaranteed A job, (I actually like this, it is much better than "welfare", but such a system could be employed in the US without drastically changing the economic system, just have the government fund guaranteed introductory wage jobs, and pay for it by cutting other forms of welfare. We did this in the past on a limited scale with the Civilian Conservation Corps, and it worked fairly well. Bring back the CCC, but I digress.)

While the Soviets guaranteed A job, you did NOT necessarily get to choose the job. Those NS college students, under the Soviet System would more likely be working hard manual labor jobs on a farm or in a factory. The majority of the Soviet people worked manual jobs. College was "free" but limited to only those who showed a high level of aptitude, and only to fill needed highly skilled jobs. Hence Soviet "universities" more closely resembled American "trade schools" in the offered education was narrowly tailored to a specific job. These NS college students are likely sociology majors in the like, but such majors barely existed in the Soviet college systems, so would only be available to a select few, if they were available at all.

And here is the irony. Plumbers, mechanics, truck driver's, electricians and the like get paid fairly well in the US, and can live very comfortable lives. But sociology and philosophy majors and the like do not get paid well, because there is little demand for those educated in those fields, and a grossly excessive supply. So those types like the Soviet systems forgetting that under the Soviet System they would be a manual worker. If you want a job, go to truck driving school, not a liberal arts college. In the US the number of jobs are set mostly by the market, in the USSR it was set by the government, but in the end you always need more truck drivers then you need sociologists.

[Kalifati Arab shqiptar]

I have lived in the both systems, most of you so called communists haven't experienced their tyranny and oppression, oh and if you ask, i lived in the worst Dictatorship in Europe, The People's Socialist Republic of Albania. So stop saying Soviet Union's system is better

And lots of other people from those systems disagree with you. Just because you're from there doesn't mean your opinion trumps all others.

you know nothing pseudo-communist

[Greater Weselton]

I would much rather live in the American system.

[Shnercropolis]

For myself, I think the Soviet system would be better. I've got technical skills, so I'd basically be guaranteed a technical job, and I honestly feel like the American system is horribly inefficient(although it might be that the Soviet system was no better. No harm in trying!).
Specifically, I'd like to be in the Russian SSR during the early days of Perestroika.

[4years]

For myself, I think the Soviet system would be better. I've got technical skills, so I'd basically be guaranteed a technical job, and I honestly feel like the American system is horribly inefficient(although it might be that the Soviet system was no better. No harm in trying!).
Specifically, I'd like to be in the Russian SSR during the early days of Perestroika.

You want to be in the USSR as it collapses around your ears?!? Are you out of your mind?

[Shnercropolis]

For myself, I think the Soviet system would be better. I've got technical skills, so I'd basically be guaranteed a technical job, and I honestly feel like the American system is horribly inefficient(although it might be that the Soviet system was no better. No harm in trying!).
Specifically, I'd like to be in the Russian SSR during the early days of Perestroika.

You want to be in the USSR as it collapses around your ears?!? Are you out of your mind?

notice how I said early days. I'd have a few years of peace of mind and some degree of freedom, and after that I could just hold out until the Federation comes along.

[Lompa]

The American system because it is still standing

[Wanderjar]

Do I want a modicum of freedom with the opportunity to enrich myself or do I want to be repressed and starving? Let me think. Obviously, the American system is by far the more palatable. And seeing as how I do in fact live in the US, I know for a fact that the problems exist within the US system are easily manageable.

Find one famine the USSR experienced following the end if the War famine of '48 (called that because it was caused by war damage).

The only reason the vast majority of Soviet citizens weren't starving was due to massive humanitarian aid provided by the United States and Canada in the form of grains. Life is unequivocally better in the US.

[Shnercropolis]

Find one famine the USSR experienced following the end if the War famine of '48 (called that because it was caused by war damage).

The only reason the vast majority of Soviet citizens weren't starving was due to massive humanitarian aid provided by the United States and Canada in the form of grains. Life is unequivocally better in the US.

source? That's a pretty outrageous claim.

[Wanderjar]

The only reason the vast majority of Soviet citizens weren't starving was due to massive humanitarian aid provided by the United States and Canada in the form of grains. Life is unequivocally better in the US.

source? That's a pretty outrageous claim.

Find it yourself.

[Shnercropolis]

source? That's a pretty outrageous claim.

Find it yourself.

I lay the burden of proof upon you, good sir.

[Wanderjar]

Find it yourself.

I lay the burden of proof upon you, good sir.

And I don't care enough to sway your opinion. If you disagree, feel free to look at it or ignore it. Doesn't matter in the least bit to me.

[Infected Mushroom]

well once the system settled down, you wouldn't end up in the gulags unless you said something you weren't supposed to right?

Actually, not even then. In the post-Stalin era, you had to be an open and well-known opponent of the government, and repeatedly refuse to shut up after being warned by the authorities, before you'd actually end up in prison.

So, as you correctly pointed out, the Soviet system was good for introverted, shy, quiet people. Meanwhile the extroverted, self-promoting, loud people are the ones that could find it stifling.

I'm a pretty quiet introvert myself in real life, and I completely agree with you that I would love to live in a system where I had a guaranteed job and where I would be judged by my loyalty and efficiency in carrying out tasks, not by how well I can pretend to be something I'm not (energetic, ambitious, extroverted). I would love to live in a system where people are given a simple but comfortable life and are expected to be happy with what they have - as opposed to a system where people are given nothing and are expected to be ambitious and greedy and claw their way to the top.

I want stability, economic security, and the basic necessities of life. That's why I'd prefer to live under the Soviet system. In fact, I'll go one step further: a system that gives everyone stability, economic security and the basic necessities of life is an ideal worth fighting for. And I am an enemy of all the greedy risk-loving fools who would seek to undermine such a society because it's cramping their style.

i empathize with this so much...

especially this part...

I'm a pretty quiet introvert myself in real life, and I completely agree with you that I would love to live in a system where I had a guaranteed job and where I would be judged by my loyalty and efficiency in carrying out tasks, not by how well I can pretend to be something I'm not (energetic, ambitious, extroverted). I would love to live in a system where people are given a simple but comfortable life and are expected to be happy with what they have - as opposed to a system where people are given nothing and are expected to be ambitious and greedy and claw their way to the top.

I have struggled with it all my life. Like Lord Varys, I'm an actor... unfortunately, just not a very good one. And it gets really draining...

[Shnercropolis]

I lay the burden of proof upon you, good sir.

And I don't care enough to sway your opinion. If you disagree, feel free to look at it or ignore it. Doesn't matter in the least bit to me.

Therefore your claim is false. Moving on.

[Wanderjar]

And I don't care enough to sway your opinion. If you disagree, feel free to look at it or ignore it. Doesn't matter in the least bit to me.

Therefore your claim is false. Moving on.

*Shrug* Not my fault you're ignorant.

[Shnercropolis]

Therefore your claim is false. Moving on.

*Shrug* Not my fault you're ignorant.

It is your fault, since you're refusing to educate me.

[Roski]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_trade_of_the_Soviet_Union#Trade_with_Western_industrialized_countries

[url]The Soviet Union has long been an importer of Third World agricultural products. These imports increased dramatically after 1980 because of poor Soviet harvests from 1979 into the early 1980s and the United States grain embargo against the Soviet Union in 1980 and 1981. From 1980 to 1985, food and agricultural goods, half of them grain, made up 50 percent of Soviet imports from the Third World. In the first nine months of 1986, the decrease in grain purchases accounted for most of the 22 percent drop in imports from the Third World.[1][/url]


The Grain came from the third world (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_trade_of_the_Soviet_Union#Composition_of_trade)

[Imperializt Russia]

Therefore your claim is false. Moving on.

*Shrug* Not my fault you're ignorant.

You've been here for eight years, you should know how "burden of proof" works.
>make claim
>source claim
This is what's known as "debate", another thing you should be familiar with.

[Kubra]

Therefore your claim is false. Moving on.

*Shrug* Not my fault you're ignorant.

tl;dr you don't have a source
We're internetizens we know the signs

[Lemanrussland]

The American System. At least if I don't like it, I can criticize it or just leave. I'm not being penned in by an anti-Fascist Protection Rampart, like I'm some kind of caged pet.

[Socialist Tera]

Soviet System, at least I wouldn't have the threat of antisemitism and I would be guaranteed a job, healthcare and education.