Would you rather live in the Soviet system or the American?

[Infected Mushroom]

I would never ever think about living in the Soviet system. The Soviet system was an utter failure that never has worked and has resulted in perpetual debt and eventual failure. Their GDP, at its peak was only 60% of America's. People lack the basic human rights of free expression and free association. There are constant human rights abuses across the country. The nation also has the notorious gulags, which inhumanely detains people who even slightly disagree with the state for decades. The gulags have been well known to be the root cause of numerous chronic health complications, and some statisticians have linked these gulags to the deaths of dozens of people. Many people in the USSR also starved, and the state controlled economy leads to starvation and famine under many cases. Meanwhile in America, a somewhat Free-Market system, relatively low taxes and Capitalism has led to prosperity. Under Presidents such as JFK and Reagan, the economy prospered, and people were able to enjoy the fruits of their labor, resulting in a hardworking, diligent population. People who worked almost always had bountiful quantities food on their table, people got better education, better healthcare, and better overall services. With stark disparities between a free, prosperous America and a despotic, stagnating USSR, it only makes sense for me to live under America's system.

On a side note, many people fled the USSR to America.

well once the system settled down, you wouldn't end up in the gulags unless you said something you weren't supposed to right?

And besides, no bloody job interviews, endless job hunts, and constant fears of not making ends meet. The state provides it all AND you have a chance to succeed without being a financial opportunist...

Also, everything is free (education, healthcare etc).

[Republic of Coldwater]

I would never ever think about living in the Soviet system. The Soviet system was an utter failure that never has worked and has resulted in perpetual debt and eventual failure. Their GDP, at its peak was only 60% of America's. People lack the basic human rights of free expression and free association. There are constant human rights abuses across the country. The nation also has the notorious gulags, which inhumanely detains people who even slightly disagree with the state for decades. The gulags have been well known to be the root cause of numerous chronic health complications, and some statisticians have linked these gulags to the deaths of dozens of people. Many people in the USSR also starved, and the state controlled economy leads to starvation and famine under many cases. Meanwhile in America, a somewhat Free-Market system, relatively low taxes and Capitalism has led to prosperity. Under Presidents such as JFK and Reagan, the economy prospered, and people were able to enjoy the fruits of their labor, resulting in a hardworking, diligent population. People who worked almost always had bountiful quantities food on their table, people got better education, better healthcare, and better overall services. With stark disparities between a free, prosperous America and a despotic, stagnating USSR, it only makes sense for me to live under America's system.

On a side note, many people fled the USSR to America.

well once the system settled down, you wouldn't end up in the gulags unless you said something you weren't supposed to right?

And besides, no bloody job interviews, endless job hunts, and constant fears of not making ends meet. The state provides it all AND you have a chance to succeed without being a financial opportunist...

Also, everything is free (education, healthcare etc).

No crime warrants for such inhumane treatment, as it would only intensify hate instead of teaching the person a lesson. And what is wrong with me saying things that are not what the state wants me to say? It is harmless, and it is always done in Western countries, yet there hasn't been civil unrest. I want to be able to voice my opinion, and you are also voicing your opinion right here on NationStates. I don't think you want to be prohibited from voicing your opinion.

Except the jobs don't pay well and don't give you much incentive to work. And you don't necessarily make ends meet as there have been times in Soviet history where bad state management of the economy resulted in massive famines, and you can work all ya want (without incentive), and you still don't get enough because of state rationing. In America, many people aren't financial opportunists, and they succeed. I'm sure that many workers aren't, and yet they still earn decent amounts of cash. You also lack any incentive for hard work as you are never able to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

And the quality of the HealthCare and Education? Nowhere near the quality in America. You also technically pay for it by being an unproductive slave of the state, so it really isn't free.

[Infected Mushroom]

well once the system settled down, you wouldn't end up in the gulags unless you said something you weren't supposed to right?

And besides, no bloody job interviews, endless job hunts, and constant fears of not making ends meet. The state provides it all AND you have a chance to succeed without being a financial opportunist...

Also, everything is free (education, healthcare etc).

No crime warrants for such inhumane treatment, as it would only intensify hate instead of teaching the person a lesson. And what is wrong with me saying things that are not what the state wants me to say? It is harmless, and it is always done in Western countries, yet there hasn't been civil unrest. I want to be able to voice my opinion, and you are also voicing your opinion right here on NationStates. I don't think you want to be prohibited from voicing your opinion.

Except the jobs don't pay well and don't give you much incentive to work. And you don't necessarily make ends meet as there have been times in Soviet history where bad state management of the economy resulted in massive famines, and you can work all ya want (without incentive), and you still don't get enough because of state rationing. In America, many people aren't financial opportunists, and they succeed. I'm sure that many workers aren't, and yet they still earn decent amounts of cash. You also lack any incentive for hard work as you are never able to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

And the quality of the HealthCare and Education? Nowhere near the quality in America. You also technically pay for it by being an unproductive slave of the state, so it really isn't free.

I'm willing to take stability and a smaller paycheck if it gets rid of the uncertainties and ultra-competitiveness of capitalism myself.

Also, if it means I can't voice certain opinions and should have to keep a certain low profile from time to time, that's ok too.

And yes forced labor is wrong, but I think I'm clever enough to avoid being sent there. It would be great if they could keep the free healthcare and free education and stuff while getting rid of that gulag stuff. The quality of some of these services might not be the best but they are free. FREE man. No need for personal economic planning, that just rocks.

Honestly, having to be silent on issues of politics and to occasionally have to put in the good word for the Party doesn't bother me...

[Constantinopolis]

well once the system settled down, you wouldn't end up in the gulags unless you said something you weren't supposed to right?

Actually, not even then. In the post-Stalin era, you had to be an open and well-known opponent of the government, and repeatedly refuse to shut up after being warned by the authorities, before you'd actually end up in prison.

So, as you correctly pointed out, the Soviet system was good for introverted, shy, quiet people. Meanwhile the extroverted, self-promoting, loud people are the ones that could find it stifling.

I'm a pretty quiet introvert myself in real life, and I completely agree with you that I would love to live in a system where I had a guaranteed job and where I would be judged by my loyalty and efficiency in carrying out tasks, not by how well I can pretend to be something I'm not (energetic, ambitious, extroverted). I would love to live in a system where people are given a simple but comfortable life and are expected to be happy with what they have - as opposed to a system where people are given nothing and are expected to be ambitious and greedy and claw their way to the top.

I want stability, economic security, and the basic necessities of life. That's why I'd prefer to live under the Soviet system. In fact, I'll go one step further: a system that gives everyone stability, economic security and the basic necessities of life is an ideal worth fighting for. And I am an enemy of all the greedy risk-loving fools who would seek to undermine such a society because it's cramping their style.

[Dalcaria]

I would frankly prefer the American system (amazingly) for the fact that it's the lesser or two bad systems (in my opinion). American is at fault for creating and perpetuating poverty to a horrid level, but Russia frankly (in many cases of what I saw) was as bad if not worse some times. Rather than redistributing wealth, they redistribute poverty, and wealth often went to government officials or fueling the Cold War. The same can be said with the US (sans redistribution of wealth), but I've seen that wealth is slightly more obtainable. This is based on the reality of both states and how they functioned, not the ideals. However, I would much rather live in a state like Norway, or Nazi Germany (economically speaking, not socially). The poor should be helped, at the expense of the wealthy I would even say, but it should not be so great that everyone ends up being poor, it should be done so that everyone can be brought up, something the Nazi system seemed to be doing.

[Kiribati-Tarawa]

Say what you want, at least in America, you can say it.

Pretty sure in the Post-Stalin era criticism wasn't punished.

That's hilarious

[Questers]

And yes forced labor is wrong, but I think I'm clever enough to avoid being sent there. It would be great if they could keep the free healthcare and free education and stuff while getting rid of that gulag stuff. The quality of some of these services might not be the best but they are free. FREE man. No need for personal economic planning, that just rocks.

They're not free. Not in any system.

Nothing is free. The only thing that is free is air. Everything is paid for - directly or indirectly.

[Terran Empire]

Wow.

[Kiribati-Tarawa]

And yes forced labor is wrong, but I think I'm clever enough to avoid being sent there. It would be great if they could keep the free healthcare and free education and stuff while getting rid of that gulag stuff. The quality of some of these services might not be the best but they are free. FREE man. No need for personal economic planning, that just rocks.

They're not free. Not in any system.

Nothing is free. The only thing that is free is air. Everything is paid for - directly or indirectly.

Perhaps not, but I don't think anybody can contest that someone living in America in 1970 was less free than their counterpart in the Soviet Union.

[Cekarus]

Soviet.

[Connori Pilgrims]

I'm a pretty quiet introvert myself in real life, and I completely agree with you that I would love to live in a system where I had a guaranteed job and where I would be judged by my loyalty and efficiency in carrying out tasks, not by how well I can pretend to be something I'm not (energetic, ambitious, extroverted). I would love to live in a system where people are given a simple but comfortable life and are expected to be happy with what they have - as opposed to a system where people are given nothing and are expected to be ambitious and greedy and claw their way to the top.

I want stability, economic security, and the basic necessities of life. That's why I'd prefer to live under the Soviet system. In fact, I'll go one step further: a system that gives everyone stability, economic security and the basic necessities of life is an ideal worth fighting for. And I am an enemy of all the greedy risk-loving fools who would seek to undermine such a society because it's cramping their style.

What may be "stability, economic security, and the basic necessities of life" for you may not necessarily be the same for other people, let alone a majority of people. You probably did not mean it, but the there's usually an implicit generalization that one standard of "stability, economic security, etc. etc." is desirable and must be adhered to by force of the State, to the detriment of other alternative standards (and no I don't just mean capitalist standards - an example of an alternative are those of indigenous peoples and other grassroots movements whose standards and values don't necessarily match yours).

Homogenization by the State can be every bit as alienating as the worst forms of exploitative capitalism.

[Imperializt Russia]

where do you think the american system came from?

If you're referring to the native Americans, that genocide was brought about by the colonial European empires primarily. The late 1800s actions by the USA against them were horrible, but the system wasn't built on their skeletons.

One of the treaties with the French after the Seven Years War, which is what we taxed the Americans for - to defend them from the chuffing French - was to agree that British America would not significantly expand. It wouldn't try to annex French America and it wouldn't try to annex Native American territories.

The Americans decided they didn't like being defended, and annexed French America and Native American lands after the War of Independence.

Having been to Romania and spoken to many who were subjected to the Soviey system I will say without a doubt I'm glad I live in the American system.

According to surveys, most in the former USSR think the fall hurt them, while a much smaller percentage say it benefited them. (exceptions are Turkmenistan, Kazahkstan, and no information on the Baltics, but I'm going to guess they are anti-Soviet).

http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/forme ... eakup.aspx

IIRC the Baltics were quite well-treated in the Soviet Union, they were essentially trade centres. I'd imagine they were pro-Soviet Union.

Equally dying of starvation that is.

Lol. Cos the Soviets totally made famine a policy right? Russia hadn't had hundreds of famines before Lenin came to power right? the Soviets didn't end famine right?

Ignorance is bliss.

IIRC, famine was used as a tool. Not all the famines the Soviets faced were directed, far from it. But in some limited cases, notably Holodomor, famine was used as a weapon.

I would never ever think about living in the Soviet system. The Soviet system was an utter failure that never has worked and has resulted in perpetual debt and eventual failure. Their GDP, at its peak was only 60% of America's. People lack the basic human rights of free expression and free association. There are constant human rights abuses across the country. The nation also has the notorious gulags, which inhumanely detains people who even slightly disagree with the state for decades. The gulags have been well known to be the root cause of numerous chronic health complications, and some statisticians have linked these gulags to the deaths of dozens of people. Many people in the USSR also starved, and the state controlled economy leads to starvation and famine under many cases. Meanwhile in America, a somewhat Free-Market system, relatively low taxes and Capitalism has led to prosperity. Under Presidents such as JFK and Reagan, the economy prospered, and people were able to enjoy the fruits of their labor, resulting in a hardworking, diligent population. People who worked almost always had bountiful quantities food on their table, people got better education, better healthcare, and better overall services. With stark disparities between a free, prosperous America and a despotic, stagnating USSR, it only makes sense for me to live under America's system.

On a side note, many people fled the USSR to America.

Comparison of GDP between command and market economies doesn't work especially well.
When many goods aren't "sold" and things aren't "bought", the GDP has to be extrapolated weirdly.

The Soviet Union was a country without a consumption culture. Of course its economy is going to look poor by comparison.
You act as though the one goal of the Soviet Union was to be wealthier than America. I don't think this would ever have been the case.

A command economy doesn't "cause" famine. It can aggravate other factors, like a famine that's already happening.

They're not free. Not in any system.

Nothing is free. The only thing that is free is air. Everything is paid for - directly or indirectly.

Perhaps not, but I don't think anybody can contest that someone living in America in 1970 was less free than their counterpart in the Soviet Union.

Blacks and students would beg to differ.

[Saiwania]

This is a good watch if not a bit dated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_DaMKUP3Og

Communists think that this is hilariously bad propaganda, but some people from the former USSR and Warsaw Pact countries assert that what it says is true in that they lacked basic freedoms they can now enjoy in the US.

[Risottia]

Say what you want, at least in America, you can say it.

In Soviet Union you were also perfectly able to say whatever you wanted.

Because the eventual vacation time in Siberia happened AFTER you had said it.

[Costa Fierro]

Neither system. The Soviet system wasn't that far removed from the system replaced. Essentially it still had a small elite with the majority of the wealth and power and the proletariat were in the factories and fields toiling their asses off for no real gains. Your average Soviet citizen pretty much lived on the bare minimum in terms of food rations and had basic accommodation. Free healthcare and education is fine if it was of good quality. The only people who received any of the benefits under the Soviet system were the elites and the privileged few that lived in Moscow.

The American system isn't really that better. Granted, the United States, on average, was much wealthier than the Soviets and your average American had a better quality of life but I wouldn't want to live in a state essentially run by the interests of a few with a looming nuclear apocalypse hanging over me or having to worry about healthcare or saving up for university. And in the inevitable event of getting drafted and sent to Vietnam, winding up a crippled mess when I came back, assuming I wasn't killed in the process of fighting some lightly armed peasants in the jungle.

[Estado Nacional]

This is a joke, right? Of course I'd rather live under the American system.

[Pagan Hungary]

Soviet, nothing is better than having terrible living standards and little liberty.

[Araraukar]

Both systems suck ass royally, but from my point of view, the Soviet system sucked a little less hard.

This may be due to having lived my childhood during the last decade or so of the Cold War, nextdoor neighbours with USSR, and knowing how unkind the system in USA is towards anyone that's not 1) rich, 2) beautiul, or 3) both.

[Ainin]

to be fairly honest, THEIR universal healthcare wasnt that great.

It wasn't that bad; in fact, IIRC, their life expectancy was higher than that of the US for a long time, and Cuba's still is.

Not according to the World Health Organisation.

United States - 79.8/77.4/82.2 (all/male/female)
Cuba - 79.4/77.4/81.4

[The Archregimancy]

My mother in law was a Russian Warsaw Pact interpreter who defected to the west.

A significant percentage of NSG's posting base was born after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and therefore doesn't really have a proper basis for comparison. But anyone who thinks they'd have been better off living under the Soviet Union than living in a western industrialised society contemporary to the Soviet Union - including the United States - should talk to my mother in law; they'd likely find it a sobering experience.

Is that anecdotal evidence? Of course it is; but one of the central aspects of life in the Soviet bloc was the sheer grinding mundanity of everyday life, and the equal distribution of low-grade misery across social hierarchies.

One of the few exceptions to the above rule might have been entry-level members of major ballet companies, who were probably better off in the Soviet system compared to their western counterparts; but I doubt they're a very big demographic.

[Bojikami]

I would prefer the soviet system. I say this as someone who had multiple family members living in the USSR.

[Kilobugya]

Say what you want, at least in America, you can say it.

Or not : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

[Indira]

American. For all it's problems, I have far more freedom in America than I ever would in the USSR. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about either

[Imperializt Russia]

Say what you want, at least in America, you can say it.

Or not : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

"Surveillance orders can be based in part on a person's First Amendment activities, such as the books they read, the websites they visit or the letters to the editor they have written ... Any person or organisation forced to turn over records is prohibited from disclosing the search to anyone."
~ACLU on the Patriot Act.

[Berdanvia]

MURICA MURICA MURICA!!!!!!!!!!