Would you rather live in the Soviet system or the American?

[Libhiriya]

Equally dying of starvation that is.

Lol. Cos the Soviets totally made famine a policy right? Russia hadn't had hundreds of famines before Lenin came to power right? the Soviets didn't end famine right?

Ignorance is bliss.

[Untaroicht]

Equally dying of starvation that is.

Lol. Cos the Soviets totally made famine a policy right? Russia hadn't had hundreds of famines before Lenin came to power right? the Soviets didn't end famine right?

Ignorance is bliss.

Nothing on the scale of the fucking Holodomor alone.

You're comparing a stickey-note papercut to a anti-tank heavy sniper round to the skull

[Antarticaria]

Equally dying of starvation that is.

Lol. Cos the Soviets totally made famine a policy right? Russia hadn't had hundreds of famines before Lenin came to power right? the Soviets didn't end famine right?

Ignorance is bliss.

Those are natural and happened to poor agricultural chances.
and yes Ignorance is bliss especially when one neglects Stalins horrors. A mock soviet system would potentially allow someone with the same mentality to enter power. True or false?

[United Marxist Nations]

Lol. Cos the Soviets totally made famine a policy right? Russia hadn't had hundreds of famines before Lenin came to power right? the Soviets didn't end famine right?

Ignorance is bliss.

Those are natural and happened to poor agricultural chances.
and yes Ignorance is bliss especially when one neglects Stalins horrors. A mock soviet system would potentially allow someone with the same mentality to enter power. True or false?

And the famine in the USSR was due to blight (wiped out 20% of the crops), and worsened by the lack of notice from the local authorities. The USSR sent a lot of aid into Ukraine during the famine.

[Libhiriya]

How dare those Soviets! they inherited a perfect system/country from the Tsar and turned it into a shithole.

Oh wait the opposite happened.

Pick up a book that isn't written by Robert Conquest.

[Geneserath]

and yes Ignorance is bliss especially when one neglects Stalins horrors. A mock soviet system would potentially allow someone with the same mentality to enter power. True or false?

False,
of
course!

[Untaroicht]

Those are natural and happened to poor agricultural chances.
and yes Ignorance is bliss especially when one neglects Stalins horrors. A mock soviet system would potentially allow someone with the same mentality to enter power. True or false?

And the famine in the USSR was due to blight (wiped out 20% of the crops), and worsened by the lack of notice from the local authorities. The USSR sent a lot of aid into Ukraine during the famine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_ ... resistance

(granted, they weren't always the nicest bunch of pacifist cuddle-bunnies around, but they were political dissidents who were purged)

(Unless you count caviar shipped to leading party officials, or ukrainian-produced butter sent to "aid" the starving americans and british during the 20's)

[United Marxist Nations]

And the famine in the USSR was due to blight (wiped out 20% of the crops), and worsened by the lack of notice from the local authorities. The USSR sent a lot of aid into Ukraine during the famine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_ ... resistance

(granted, they weren't always the nicest bunch of pacifist cuddle-bunnies around, but they were political dissidents who were purged)

(Unless you count caviar shipped to leading party officials)

That's way out of the time-frame of the famine; those were Nazi-collaborators in the Banderist Army.

Also, aid:
The first word of famine to reach the Soviet government in mid-January 1933, and the first shipment of food aid from the Soviet government arrived in the Ukraine on 7 Feb. 1933[3]. Food continued to arrive by the millions of pounds. Furthermore, on 20 March 1933, Stalin himself intervened, lowering the amount of grain to be used elsewhere by 14,000 tons; he further decreed that those 14,000 tons would be distributed to provide help to citizens in Kiev.

The second wave of famine hit in May 1933, and the Soviet government reacted by allocating 576,000 tons[4], later to be increased to 1.1 million tons[4], to be distributed as aid to the suffering Ukrainians. However, this aid was given to local government to be distributed accordingly, and, judging by the fact that some of these local government officials were heavily reprimanded for “sabotage” of the Soviet government’s efforts[5], it is likely that these local governments bear much of the burden that is usually placed entirely upon Stalin.

[Antarticaria]

Those are natural and happened to poor agricultural chances.
and yes Ignorance is bliss especially when one neglects Stalins horrors. A mock soviet system would potentially allow someone with the same mentality to enter power. True or false?

And the famine in the USSR was due to blight (wiped out 20% of the crops), and worsened by the lack of notice from the local authorities. The USSR sent a lot of aid into Ukraine during the famine.

http://www.holodomorct.org/history.html
also while on the topic of Stalin and the Soviet Union what have you say of the Purges and the mass filling of Prisons such as the Gulag due to supposed "Traitors" and others.
http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html
*Edit* I made sure to grab some .Orgs for yah.

[United Marxist Nations]

And the famine in the USSR was due to blight (wiped out 20% of the crops), and worsened by the lack of notice from the local authorities. The USSR sent a lot of aid into Ukraine during the famine.

http://www.holodomorct.org/history.html
also while on the topic of Stalin and the Soviet Union what have you say of the Purges and the mass filling of Prisons such as the Gulag due to supposed "Traitors" and others.
http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html

1) First link doesn't give any evidence, just restates the "genocide" line.
2) Second link is about "gendercide", not genocide, you should take a look at that hare-brained site before you post it.

[Alyakia]

Lol. Cos the Soviets totally made famine a policy right? Russia hadn't had hundreds of famines before Lenin came to power right? the Soviets didn't end famine right?

Ignorance is bliss.

Those are natural and happened to poor agricultural chances.
and yes Ignorance is bliss especially when one neglects Stalins horrors. A mock soviet system would potentially allow someone with the same mentality to enter power. True or false?

do you consider chile or south korea to be mock american systems? if so i have some wicked bad news for you.

[Untaroicht]

This does beg the question: if the people you claim you are helping honestly think that the Invading Wehrmacht is the lesser of the two evils at the end of the day...what does that say about you?

[Antarticaria]

Those are natural and happened to poor agricultural chances.
and yes Ignorance is bliss especially when one neglects Stalins horrors. A mock soviet system would potentially allow someone with the same mentality to enter power. True or false?

do you consider chile or south korea to be mock american systems? if so i have some wicked bad news for you.

Well aware. Am I not aloud to choose the lesser of two failures or "evils"?

[Alyakia]

This does beg the question: if the people you claim you are helping honestly think that the Invading Wehrmacht is the lesser of the two evils at the end of the day...what does that say about you?

and what does it say about the wehrmacht when they change their mind in fairly short order once they are actually occupied?

[Libhiriya]

This does beg the question: if the people you claim you are helping honestly think that the Invading Wehrmacht is the lesser of the two evils at the end of the day...what does that say about you?

Ukrainian nationalists supported the Wehrmact, average Soviet citizens were rounded up and executed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar

[Antarticaria]

http://www.holodomorct.org/history.html
also while on the topic of Stalin and the Soviet Union what have you say of the Purges and the mass filling of Prisons such as the Gulag due to supposed "Traitors" and others.
http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html

1) First link doesn't give any evidence, just restates the "genocide" line.
2) Second link is about "gendercide", not genocide, you should take a look at that hare-brained site before you post it.

1) http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genoci ... famine.htm, http://historyofrussia.org/stalin-genocide/
the second site of which I agree with the initial quote and its rather irritating that I have to bring it up again.
2) As if that excuses what happened.

[United Marxist Nations]

1) First link doesn't give any evidence, just restates the "genocide" line.
2) Second link is about "gendercide", not genocide, you should take a look at that hare-brained site before you post it.

1) http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genoci ... famine.htm, http://historyofrussia.org/stalin-genocide/
the second site of which I agree with the initial quote and its rather irritating that I have to bring it up again.
2) As if that excuses what happened.

1) None of which provide any evidence of genocide, but of economic malpractice and unintended consequences. The Soviet Union provided great amounts of aid to the Ukrainian SSR. It was an unintended consequence of a policy of rapid industrialization. In fact, the amount of grain taxed was actually lower in the year leading up to the famine than in the previous years.
2) I'm saying that the source isn't even talking about what you're talking about.

EDIT: Moreover, the famine was throughout the USSR, not just in Ukraine, so it had nothing to do with trying to repress Ukrainians.

EDIT2: And the Aid was poorly distributed by local authorities, not the Central government, which just sent the aid.

[Antarticaria]

1) http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genoci ... famine.htm, http://historyofrussia.org/stalin-genocide/
the second site of which I agree with the initial quote and its rather irritating that I have to bring it up again.
2) As if that excuses what happened.

1) None of which provide any evidence of genocide, but of economic malpractice and unintended consequences. The Soviet Union provided great amounts of aid to the Ukrainian SSR. It was an unintended consequence of a policy of rapid industrialization. In fact, the amount of grain taxed was actually lower in the year leading up to the famine than in the previous years.
2) I'm saying that the source isn't even talking about what you're talking about.

I as well as any can tell when a argument will end in a stalemate as we both believe in our individual ideas.
What say you? Shall we agree to disagree?

[Timsvill]

This is a bit of a survey, I suppose, not really sure what conclusions I hope to draw from it; anyway, here goes.

As most of you know, I think the USSR had lots of problems (namely its lack of multicandidate elections hampering Proletarian ownership of the state); however, as I read about the Soviet economic system and consider my prospects for the future, I have come to the conclusion that I would do better under a Soviet system than under the American one. For example, in the current economy, I will have to worry about health insurance, paying a large portion of my income for housing, food, electricity, internet, etc. and, given the major I wish to pursue, my employment prospects don't look like they'd be very good, and I doubt that such expenses could be afforded ( or, at the very least, will leave me with nothing of my own.

However, under a Soviet-style system, healthcare is provided by the state, housing is heavily subsidized (along with university education), and one is guaranteed employment (and in the field I wish to pursue, that is a godsend); thus, in such a system, I would have considerably more economic freedom, contrary to what is often said.

So, what system would be best for you, NSG?

You'll have to forgive me if I bail on the thread for a couple hours, as I'm typing this up at lunch.

Important note: this is referring to the system after the completion of industrialization, so probably a system like the Khrushchev era ( only set in modern times, of course).

EDIT ONE: I changed the poll to allow re- voting.

In soviet russia, economy crash you.

[United Marxist Nations]

1) None of which provide any evidence of genocide, but of economic malpractice and unintended consequences. The Soviet Union provided great amounts of aid to the Ukrainian SSR. It was an unintended consequence of a policy of rapid industrialization. In fact, the amount of grain taxed was actually lower in the year leading up to the famine than in the previous years.
2) I'm saying that the source isn't even talking about what you're talking about.

I as well as any can tell when a argument will end in a stalemate as we both believe in our individual ideas.
What say you? Shall we agree to disagree?

If you don't want to, I shall claim victory.

My factbook has a little thing I wrote about the famine in Ukraine, you can look at that for more information.

[Lalaki]

By far, the American system. I prefer the Nordic Model, though.

[Arlenton]

This does beg the question: if the people you claim you are helping honestly think that the Invading Wehrmacht is the lesser of the two evils at the end of the day...what does that say about you?

I feel bad for the Eastern Europeans during the war, to be fought over by two of the most brutal nations in modern history must have really sucked.

But if i were in that position i would be rooting for the side that has running water.

[Antarticaria]

I as well as any can tell when a argument will end in a stalemate as we both believe in our individual ideas.
What say you? Shall we agree to disagree?

If you don't want to, I shall claim victory.

My factbook has a little thing I wrote about the famine in Ukraine, you can look at that for more information.

haha I am not claiming victory and such, but its not the '50s our ideologies can be friends

[United Marxist Nations]

If you don't want to, I shall claim victory.

My factbook has a little thing I wrote about the famine in Ukraine, you can look at that for more information.

haha I am not claiming victory and such, but its not the '50s our ideologies can be friends

They are directly opposed to one-another.

[Antarticaria]

haha I am not claiming victory and such, but its not the '50s our ideologies can be friends

They are directly opposed to one-another.

Vanilla and Chocolate. Then came the swirl.