Would you rather live in the Soviet system or the American?

[Geneserath]

How were the end results bad? Do you think the Tsar would have been better? Take a look at the improvements the USSR made over its history.

You can bedazzle a pile of sh!t and it'll still be a pile of sh!t.
I have to admit my confusion at your beautification of the USSR, it's really not an appropriate point of reference for a Marxist state. You'll note that they skipped the whole 'capitalism as an inevitable phase of social progress' bit and went straight to trying to install socialism out of a feudalist society. That it ended in totalitarianism followed by decades of clumsy, perpetually self-embattled oligarchy should be no surprise to anyone.

[Gingeska]

As long as I was at the top, I don't think it would matter.

Probably America.

[Oceanic Vakiadia]

American system. No matter which leader the 'Soviets' had the end results were always bad especially for the "people" that the system claimed to unify with.

How were the end results bad? Do you think the Tsar would have been better? Take a look at the improvements the USSR made over its history.

Such improvements were accomplished alongside genocide. Not something to be proud of.

[Constantinopolis]

-snip-

"In the 1970's, Religious youth at colleges could sometimes be sent to psychiatric hospitals on grounds that only a person with a psychological disorder would still be religious after going through the whole anti-religious education."

(Source: Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 1: A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious Policies, St Martin's Press, New York (1987) pg 114-115 )

What does "sometimes" mean? It was an authoritarian regime, abuses of power happened. I was talking about general policy, not individual cases. And the general policy was that religion was tolerated within certain limits (and the limits changed depending on the period).

Also, you're quoting a book published by an American religious publishing house during the Reagan era.

[United Marxist Nations]

How were the end results bad? Do you think the Tsar would have been better? Take a look at the improvements the USSR made over its history.

Such improvements were accomplished alongside genocide. Not something to be proud of.

I never said the genocide was good, but the improvements were definitely for the best for most people.

[Oceanic Vakiadia]

Such improvements were accomplished alongside genocide. Not something to be proud of.

I never said the genocide was good, but the improvements were definitely for the best for most people.

You know, except the ones who were killed to get to that level.

[The Fascist American Empire]

Both were rather flawed, but in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics I would be thrown in prison for being a Christian, so... Regrettably, America.

Only when an example was needed. It wasn't as "Godless" as the West made it seem...

I'll take a Romanian prisoner's word. Thrown in jail just for preaching the Gospel.

[Constantinopolis]

No handout mentality, and no having to leach off government for everything.

The Soviet system did not give handouts. There was no income tax, since it was a planned economy. And since everyone had a job, there was no welfare or unemployment insurance either.

[Alyakia]

How were the end results bad? Do you think the Tsar would have been better? Take a look at the improvements the USSR made over its history.

Such improvements were accomplished alongside genocide. Not something to be proud of.

where do you think the american system came from?

[Oceanic Vakiadia]

Such improvements were accomplished alongside genocide. Not something to be proud of.

where do you think the american system came from?

If you're referring to the native Americans, that genocide was brought about by the colonial European empires primarily. The late 1800s actions by the USA against them were horrible, but the system wasn't built on their skeletons.

[Constantinopolis]

Only when an example was needed. It wasn't as "Godless" as the West made it seem...

I'll take a Romanian prisoner's word. Thrown in jail just for preaching the Gospel.

Being a Christian was always legal. Publicly trying to convert others, however, was sometimes banned, depending on the period.

[Liamsborough]

No, a basic level of assistance is necessary, and it should be private/public balanced, mostly. But for god's sake, NO welfare states!

[Geneserath]

where do you think the american system came from?

If you're referring to the native Americans, that genocide was brought about by the colonial European empires primarily. The late 1800s actions by the USA against them were horrible, but the system wasn't built on their skeletons.

TIL that the unconscious spread of disease = genocide.

[Geilinor]

where do you think the american system came from?

If you're referring to the native Americans, that genocide was brought about by the colonial European empires primarily. The late 1800s actions by the USA against them were horrible, but the system wasn't built on their skeletons.

It sort of was. The modern USA (coast-to-coast) wouldn't have happened without ethnic cleansing.

[Geilinor]

If you're referring to the native Americans, that genocide was brought about by the colonial European empires primarily. The late 1800s actions by the USA against them were horrible, but the system wasn't built on their skeletons.

TIL that the unconscious spread of disease = genocide.

It wasn't all due to disease. Some of it was our own doing, such as the Trail of Tears and forcing them out of the Midwest.

[Genivaria]

Say what you want, at least in America, you can say it.

Pretty sure in the Post-Stalin era criticism wasn't punished.

That reminds me of an old joke.

Q: Is it true that there is freedom of speech in the Soviet Union, just like in the USA?
A: In principle, yes. In the USA, you can stand in front of the White House in Washington, DC, and yell, "Down with Reagan!", and you will not be punished. Equally, you can also stand in Red Square in Moscow and yell, "Down with Reagan!", and you will not be punished.

[Imperium Sidhicum]

Another variant of that joke goes that both US and USSR constitutions guarantee freedom of speech, but USSR constitution doesn't guarantee freedom after speech.

---

In any case, I'd much rather live in a sovereign state with it's own system rather than having to pick between two rather shitty variants.

But if I have no other options, I'd actually pick the Soviet system. It's at least more familiar to me and people from my region, so I'd at least know what to expect. Better the devil you know...

[Banesbane]

Having been to Romania and spoken to many who were subjected to the Soviey system I will say without a doubt I'm glad I live in the American system.

[United Marxist Nations]

Having been to Romania and spoken to many who were subjected to the Soviey system I will say without a doubt I'm glad I live in the American system.

According to surveys, most in the former USSR think the fall hurt them, while a much smaller percentage say it benefited them. (exceptions are Turkmenistan, Kazahkstan, and no information on the Baltics, but I'm going to guess they are anti-Soviet).

http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/forme ... eakup.aspx

[Libhiriya]

During the actual Soviet Union, as someone with dark skin, the USSR would be better.

Today? as someone with dark skin, the USSR would be better.

[Kalifati Arab shqiptar]

I have lived in the both systems, most of you so called communists haven't experienced their tyranny and oppression, oh and if you ask, i lived in the worst Dictatorship in Europe, The People's Socialist Republic of Albania. So stop saying Soviet Union's system is better

[United Marxist Nations]

I have lived in the both systems, most of you so called communists haven't experienced their tyranny and oppression, oh and if you ask, i lived in the worst Dictatorship in Europe, The People's Socialist Republic of Albania. So stop saying Soviet Union's system is better

And lots of other people from those systems disagree with you. Just because you're from there doesn't mean your opinion trumps all others.

[Antarticaria]

American system. No matter which leader the 'Soviets' had the end results were always bad especially for the "people" that the system claimed to unify with.

How were the end results bad? Do you think the Tsar would have been better? Take a look at the improvements the USSR made over its history.

When millions of people in your own country die, more notably the working class that the ideology claimed to work for of course its bad.
and No the question wasnt between Tsar and Soviet system it was between Soviet System and American System.
But if you want a chart where it lays:
Tsar<Soviet<American System however this does not mean that I am saying
Socialism<Hybrid System because as a matter of fact I lean to a socialistic economic view however when it was abused and taken to such extremes that it literally ends in everyone equal... Equally dying of starvation that is.

[Geneserath]

TIL that the unconscious spread of disease = genocide.

It wasn't all due to disease. Some of it was our own doing, such as the Trail of Tears and forcing them out of the Midwest.

Of course they were, but in the grand scheme of things, the "exterminations" of Native Americans were the result of contact with diseases Eurasians had developed immunities to centuries prior. But if we're going to classify every ethnic migration and conquest as "genocide," just about every Bantu tribe south of Cameroon needs to issue apologies to the Khoisan, Russia should cede control over all its land east of the Ural mountains, and Turkey should be partitioned between Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds and the Turks returned to Central Asia. Yet we never seem to hear American progressives championing these causes.

I have lived in the both systems, most of you so called communists haven't experienced their tyranny and oppression, oh and if you ask, i lived in the worst Dictatorship in Europe, The People's Socialist Republic of Albania. So stop saying Soviet Union's system is better

It's kind of like when civilian hawks keep demanding war on their iPhone during breaktime on their Starbucks shift or in Congressional committees; neither party knows the first thing about the topics they're discussing. Even still I'm gonna propose Ceausescustan as an alternative proposal.

[United Marxist Nations]

How were the end results bad? Do you think the Tsar would have been better? Take a look at the improvements the USSR made over its history.

When millions of people in your own country die, more notably the working class that the ideology claimed to work for of course its bad.
and No the question wasnt between Tsar and Soviet system it was between Soviet System and American System.
But if you want a chart where it lays:
Tsar<Soviet<American System however this does not mean that I am saying
Socialism<Hybrid System because as a matter of fact I lean to a socialistic economic view however when it was abused and taken to such extremes that it literally ends in everyone equal... Equally dying of starvation that is.

Not "everyone died of starvation"; the famines took relatively few lives, and the rapid industrialization led to problems, but it was necessary at the time because the USSR was playing catch-up with the rest of the continent.