Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Tahar Joblis]

The fuck?

Which part?

I'm assuming you mean the last part. Most of the provisional Ukrainian government (and most people in Western Ukraine) don't want the lease of the Sevastopol Naval Base to Russia to continue once the original agreement expires. Russia, finding control of the Black Sea to be vital to its national security, finds such an ultimatum to be unacceptable. Thus, Russia wanted to make sure that, whatever option was chosen in the referendum, they still get their basing rights, because autonomous Crimea (which would still be part of Ukraine) had the ability to make that decision under the 1992 Constitution. Countries do things like that all the time; yeah, they probably shouldn't, but it's fairly normal procedure.

Do you know what was of far greater strategic importance on the world stage?

The Panama Canal. Which the US handed back over to Panama peacefully, as per plans to decolonize and deimperialize the great powers.

The US had strategically important military bases in the Philippines since the Spanish-American War... and handed over control of that to the Philippines. If they want, they can decide not to renew any leases, and the US won't invade them over it.

Responding to potential loss of military bases to a failure to provide good enough terms to the independent sovereign entity controlling the land those bases are on by invading is an act of war. And for two countries at peace with one another, wholly unacceptable.

[Tahar Joblis]

Normal? I repeat: The fuck?

Yeah, countries acting in violation of other countries' sovereignty in order to preserve the integrity of their own interests is fairly standard procedure in the international community.

No, it's casus belli. It is decidedly non-standard procedure that is considered cause for great alarm.

[United Marxist Nations]

Yeah, countries acting in violation of other countries' sovereignty in order to preserve the integrity of their own interests is fairly standard procedure in the international community.

Not really. And certainly not to the extent that Russia has. Not that getting laden with sanctions truly is in national interest.

Yes it is; China invades Japan's air and naval space over those islands all the time, the US operates Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and supplies the Republic of China (which is legally a part of the PRC) with military equipment, India helped Bengali rebels during the revolt in Bangladesh, etc.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Not really. And certainly not to the extent that Russia has. Not that getting laden with sanctions truly is in national interest.

Yes it is; China invades Japan's air and naval space over those islands all the time, the US operates Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and supplies the Republic of China (which is legally a part of the PRC) with military equipment, India helped Bengali rebels during the revolt in Bangladesh, etc.

Republic of China is True China, to say otherwise is heresy.

[Laerod]

Not really. And certainly not to the extent that Russia has. Not that getting laden with sanctions truly is in national interest.

Yes it is; China invades Japan's air and naval space over those islands all the time, the US operates Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and supplies the Republic of China (which is legally a part of the PRC) with military equipment, India helped Bengali rebels during the revolt in Bangladesh, etc.

I count less than a hundred countries. You have failed to demonstrate it's standard procedure.

[United Marxist Nations]

Yes it is; China invades Japan's air and naval space over those islands all the time, the US operates Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and supplies the Republic of China (which is legally a part of the PRC) with military equipment, India helped Bengali rebels during the revolt in Bangladesh, etc.

I count less than a hundred countries. You have failed to demonstrate it's standard procedure.

I said for Great Powers, not for all countries.

[United Marxist Nations]

Yes it is; China invades Japan's air and naval space over those islands all the time, the US operates Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and supplies the Republic of China (which is legally a part of the PRC) with military equipment, India helped Bengali rebels during the revolt in Bangladesh, etc.

Republic of China is True China, to say otherwise is heresy.

The international community disagrees. They can be Taiwan if they want, but they can't be China (and Mongolia, which they also claim as their territory).

[Laerod]

I count less than a hundred countries. You have failed to demonstrate it's standard procedure.

I said for Great Powers, not for all countries.

Don't lie.

Yeah, countries acting in violation of other countries' sovereignty in order to preserve the integrity of their own interests is fairly standard procedure in the international community.

[United Marxist Nations]

I said for Great Powers, not for all countries.

Don't lie.

Yeah, countries acting in violation of other countries' sovereignty in order to preserve the integrity of their own interests is fairly standard procedure in the international community.

Well damn, my bad; sometimes what I'm thinking and what I put down isn't always in-tune. That one is my bad.

[Organized States]

Yes it is; China invades Japan's air and naval space over those islands all the time, the US operates Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and supplies the Republic of China (which is legally a part of the PRC) with military equipment, India helped Bengali rebels during the revolt in Bangladesh, etc.

Republic of China is True China, to say otherwise is heresy.

So agreed. The Republic of Taiwan needs to be thing.

[72o]

Hoping the ceasefire won't lead to a lessening of economic sanctions against Russia. I want to see Russia bleed a little bit longer.

[Lyttenburg]

Hoping the ceasefire won't lead to a lessening of economic sanctions against Russia. I want to see Russia bleed a little bit longer.

Ah, 72o - our resident Russophobe, who has nothing else to contribute - only write hateful, bitter posts.

And I want for your country, wherever you are, to be completely exsanquinated!

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

Hoping the ceasefire won't lead to a lessening of economic sanctions against Russia. I want to see Russia bleed a little bit longer.

Why such malice? Russia was acting defensively and may have prevented a massacre in Donetsk and Lugansk.

[Costa Fierro]

Hoping the ceasefire won't lead to a lessening of economic sanctions against Russia. I want to see Russia bleed a little bit longer.

Why such malice? Russia was acting defensively and may have prevented a massacre in Donetsk and Lugansk.

There is nothing defensive about Russian actions. There is also nothing that threatens the overall security of Russia. All Moscow is doing is believing it has the God given right to intervene on the behalf of ethnic Russians in the former Soviet Union if they are "threatened" in any way.

Ethnocentrism is essentially paving the way for Russian belligerence.

[Geilinor]

Why such malice? Russia was acting defensively and may have prevented a massacre in Donetsk and Lugansk.

There is nothing defensive about Russian actions. There is also nothing that threatens the overall security of Russia. All Moscow is doing is believing it has the God given right to intervene on the behalf of ethnic Russians in the former Soviet Union if they are "threatened" in any way.

Ethnocentrism is essentially paving the way for Russian belligerence.

Just wait until the Baltics get passive-aggressive letters from Russia about ethnic Russians. I wouldn't be surprised.

[Imperializt Russia]

Actually, it rather gives a suggestion as to whether the referendum portrayed the will of the people.

It does, but that has to be viewed in the light of the deteriorating human rights situation in Crimea, including both the silencing of the free press in General and Ukrainian media in particular, as well as the torture and "disappearance" of - and murder of at least one - pro-ukrainian activists. We have seen that many Russians in Russia are afraid to state criticism of Putin and Russian authorities in opinion polls, and given the situation in Crimea I would expect the people being opposed to the Russian invasion to be less than eager to tell pollsters about things which could lead to harassment, arrests or worse.

You'll also have to keep in mind that expressing sparatist desires is unacceptable in Putin's Russia, and spreading separatist views is punishable by up to five years in jail.

It's like a more extreme version of how the Tea Party reveres "Sovereign Citizens", even though even they'd never allow such people to act as they do against the Obama administration.

[Organized States]

There is nothing defensive about Russian actions. There is also nothing that threatens the overall security of Russia. All Moscow is doing is believing it has the God given right to intervene on the behalf of ethnic Russians in the former Soviet Union if they are "threatened" in any way.

Ethnocentrism is essentially paving the way for Russian belligerence.

Just wait until the Baltics get passive-aggressive letters from Russia about ethnic Russians. I wouldn't be surprised.

They won't fuck around up there. NATO would get extremely twitchy.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Just wait until the Baltics get passive-aggressive letters from Russia about ethnic Russians. I wouldn't be surprised.

They won't fuck around up there. NATO would get extremely twitchy.

Well, they did kidnap an Estonian intelligence officer just this morning.

[Costa Fierro]

There is nothing defensive about Russian actions. There is also nothing that threatens the overall security of Russia. All Moscow is doing is believing it has the God given right to intervene on the behalf of ethnic Russians in the former Soviet Union if they are "threatened" in any way.

Ethnocentrism is essentially paving the way for Russian belligerence.

Just wait until the Baltics get passive-aggressive letters from Russia about ethnic Russians. I wouldn't be surprised.

Way ahead of you.

[Organized States]

They won't fuck around up there. NATO would get extremely twitchy.

Well, they did kidnap an Estonian intelligence officer just this morning.

Considering the NATO QRF will likely be based in Estonia, I don't think Russia wants to fuck around any further there.

[Gravlen]

Hoping the ceasefire won't lead to a lessening of economic sanctions against Russia. I want to see Russia bleed a little bit longer.

Why such malice? Russia was acting defensively and may have prevented a massacre in Donetsk and Lugansk.

Why are you lying? Russia was not in any way acting defensively, and there's absolutely no indication that the Ukrainian forces would have committed any massacres on the civilians there.

...unless you are suggesting that Russia prevented the rebels from massacring civilians in Donetsk and Luhansk. After all, the reports of extrajudicial killings and mass graves in the areas previously held by Russia/rebels could justify such a suggestion.

[Geilinor]

Just wait until the Baltics get passive-aggressive letters from Russia about ethnic Russians. I wouldn't be surprised.

Way ahead of you.

Fuck, it's worse.

[Lemanrussland]

They won't fuck around up there. NATO would get extremely twitchy.

Well, they did kidnap an Estonian intelligence officer just this morning.

That officer is from a video game!

[The Lone Alliance]

Hoping the ceasefire won't lead to a lessening of economic sanctions against Russia. I want to see Russia bleed a little bit longer.

Why such malice? Russia was acting defensively and may have prevented a massacre in Donetsk and Lugansk.

There were no massacres in Mariupol, Sloviansk, and Kramatorsk.
All were rebel held cities taken by the government.

If there were no massacres before why would there be ones now?

There were more evidence of massacres on the rebel side than on the Ukrainians.

Also Mariupol didn't fall, there goes any chance of conquering the rest of South Ukraine.

[Nickel Empire]

I hope the cease- fire they got on now will hold.