Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[United Marxist Nations]

Pew Research, a US firm, reports that 88% in Crimea want Kiev to accept the referendum's results.

I will not buy this record, it is scratched.

My hovercraft is full of eels.

Your point? You didn't actually give your issue with Pew Research polling.

[United Marxist Nations]

No, it isn't, the desires of the majority are what matter; popular sovereignty or none at all.

You've chosen none at all, though.

How so? The majority in Crimea are happy with the annexation, polling by Pew has shown that.

[Laerod]

I will not buy this record, it is scratched.

My hovercraft is full of eels.

Your point? You didn't actually give your issue with Pew Research polling.

Yeah, I did. Ages ago. I know ad nauseam repetition of bullshit is standard pro-Russian/anti-Western propaganda, but that doesn't mean I'll play along. And please stop citing your made up statistics.

[Imperializt Russia]

Acceptance by the the population has been neither proven nor would it be relevant. Even had the Russians invaded with the amount of troops they're limited to by the agreement, the agreement still prohibits them from invading.

Pew Research, a US firm, reports that 88% in Crimea want Kiev to accept the referendum's results.

Well...
88% of Crimeans do not explicitly wish that contested regions must remain allied to Kiev.
Only 54% of Crimeans (still a majority) wish that secession be possible for contested regions. 34% said they "didn't know", or chose not to answer, I assume.

It's quite interesting and probably very important to note that "Western" Ukrainians reported 93% and 4% respectively for federalism versus the right to secede.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/des ... e-country/

[Gravlen]

That's odd, how do you explain this?

Ah yes, the Presidents Human Rights council statement. The one which was up for a good 24 hours before being taken down and still didn't get indexed, or cached, or can not be found anywhere on the internet. Is that the statement the source is referring to?

It's still here.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Ah yes, the Presidents Human Rights council statement. The one which was up for a good 24 hours before being taken down and still didn't get indexed, or cached, or can not be found anywhere on the internet. Is that the statement the source is referring to?

It's still here.

Indeed, I was going to point this out but you beat me to it.

The HRA report was removed from the highlighted 'ticker-tape'-like byline of the Russian government's website, but remains up in the HRA section.

[Gravlen]

The rebels must have gotten their fake ballots from somewhere, maybe it was Tsar Vlad? As for your second statement, me saying Russia should hold an actual referendum with real observers (not ultra nationalists who oppose anything relating to NATO or the EU) has nothing to do with Russian troops turning away the few non biased observers that showed up. I was saying Russia should let the UN organize and hold a referendum in Crimea where people aren't held at gunpoint and actually let them have a free vote to see what they want. But we both know the Dear Leader won't allow such banderist things to happen.

The referendum may very well be fair: according to a Pew Research poll, 88% of Crimeans want Kiev to recognize the referendum. That, coupled with those opposing the referendum boycotting, could have easily led to the result.

Edit: source. Also, the turnout was in the 80%+, so that makes my theory quite possible.

Given that I think the results of the referendum weren't credible, based in part on the lack of transparancy, including the lack of credible observers, and the presence of (foreign) armed forces... why would I believe the turnout numbers when they're provided by the same people, who're still claiming that the referendum was free, fair and devoid of problems?

[Gravlen]

It's still here.

Indeed, I was going to point this out but you beat me to it.

The HRA report was removed from the highlighted 'ticker-tape'-like byline of the Russian government's website, but remains up in the HRA section.

All part of the greater conspiracy...

[Gravlen]

Would you actually listen if I told you? Would you genuinely change your mind if I pointed out to you what exactly was wrong with the referendum?

I'm willing to educate people on this but so far I'm underwhelmed by the willingness to learn. So don't see this as a dodge. See this as me genuinely asking if you're intellectually honest enough to handle a criticism of the referendum because for the past couple hours I have been debating someone that clearly is not.

There's that stupid historical tu quoque fallacy again.

There are obviously things wrong with the referendum, but that doesn't automatically mean it was undemocratic

Actually, yes, it does, when the main problem with the referendum was that it didn't adhere to basic democratic standards.

[Gravlen]

Kiev agreeing to it. Kiev did not approve of a referendum. Have the Ukrainian government agree to a referendum, have a proper debate/time period for campaigning, allow neutral outside watchdogs to ensure both sides keep shenanigans to a minimum. After that, the results will be the results.

You do not need government approval for a referendum.

According to the Crimean Constitution, you do.

[...]the Constitution of Crimea does not allow the Supreme Soviet of Crimea to call such a referendum. Only a consultative referendum on increased autonomy could be permissible under the Ukrainian Constitution.

http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD%282014%29002-e

[Dragomerian Islands]

You do not need government approval for a referendum.

According to the Crimean Constitution, you do.

[...]the Constitution of Crimea does not allow the Supreme Soviet of Crimea to call such a referendum. Only a consultative referendum on increased autonomy could be permissible under the Ukrainian Constitution.

http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD%282014%29002-e

That does not matter, as that violates their rights to self determination.

[Laerod]

According to the Crimean Constitution, you do.

[...]the Constitution of Crimea does not allow the Supreme Soviet of Crimea to call such a referendum. Only a consultative referendum on increased autonomy could be permissible under the Ukrainian Constitution.

http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD%282014%29002-e

That does not matter, as that violates their rights to self determination.

So did the Russians.

[Dragomerian Islands]

That does not matter, as that violates their rights to self determination.

So did the Russians.

No, they did not, as they voted to enter Russia. There was no invasion of Crimea. Also the Ukrainians deserve to have Russia intervene.

[Gravlen]

That does not matter, as that violates their rights to self determination.

So did the Russians.

And to a much larger degree, I would say.

[Laerod]

So did the Russians.

And to a much larger degree, I would say.

But that's because you adhere to fact-based reasoning rather than the "What's in it for Putin?" doctrine.

[United Marxist Nations]

My hovercraft is full of eels.

Your point? You didn't actually give your issue with Pew Research polling.

Yeah, I did. Ages ago. I know ad nauseam repetition of bullshit is standard pro-Russian/anti-Western propaganda, but that doesn't mean I'll play along. And please stop citing your made up statistics.

I was not able to watch the forum, since I was only on at intervals, you will have to restate them for me. What is your issue with Pew Research?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Yeah, I did. Ages ago. I know ad nauseam repetition of bullshit is standard pro-Russian/anti-Western propaganda, but that doesn't mean I'll play along. And please stop citing your made up statistics.

I was not able to watch the forum, since I was only on at intervals, you will have to restate them for me. What is your issue with Pew Research?

I thought everyone knew Pew was a pretty shit source.

[United Marxist Nations]

Pew Research, a US firm, reports that 88% in Crimea want Kiev to accept the referendum's results.

Well...
88% of Crimeans do not explicitly wish that contested regions must remain allied to Kiev.
Only 54% of Crimeans (still a majority) wish that secession be possible for contested regions. 34% said they "didn't know", or chose not to answer, I assume.

It's quite interesting and probably very important to note that "Western" Ukrainians reported 93% and 4% respectively for federalism versus the right to secede.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/des ... e-country/

But the same poll says that that 88% of Crimeans want the Crimean referendum recognized.

[United Marxist Nations]

I was not able to watch the forum, since I was only on at intervals, you will have to restate them for me. What is your issue with Pew Research?

I thought everyone knew Pew was a pretty shit source.

Actually, it's generally regarded as a non-partisan, reliable research company. The poll's findings mostly favor Kiev's side, but show the divide in Ukraine.

[Imperializt Russia]

Well...
88% of Crimeans do not explicitly wish that contested regions must remain allied to Kiev.
Only 54% of Crimeans (still a majority) wish that secession be possible for contested regions. 34% said they "didn't know", or chose not to answer, I assume.

It's quite interesting and probably very important to note that "Western" Ukrainians reported 93% and 4% respectively for federalism versus the right to secede.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/des ... e-country/

But the same poll says that that 88% of Crimeans want the Crimean referendum recognized.

Good lord, there are more pages.
Indeed to does say that.

I apologise, I assumed it was getting the 88% number from 88% not outright being pro-federalism - 54% in favour of allowing secession and 34% undecided.

[Laerod]

Yeah, I did. Ages ago. I know ad nauseam repetition of bullshit is standard pro-Russian/anti-Western propaganda, but that doesn't mean I'll play along. And please stop citing your made up statistics.

I was not able to watch the forum, since I was only on at intervals, you will have to restate them for me.

I have to do nothing of the sort. There's times where I'll slog through the forum finding my posts, but your most recent posts have been so devoid of any willingness to consider arguments to the contrary that you can go ahead and search the thread yourself.

What is your issue with Pew Research?

You never linked it, so I ended up searching for it myself. Apparently so did Imperializt Russia, who did your argument a disfavor and posted it. It's obvious what the issue with it is.

[United Marxist Nations]

I was not able to watch the forum, since I was only on at intervals, you will have to restate them for me.

I have to do nothing of the sort. There's times where I'll slog through the forum finding my posts, but your most recent posts have been so devoid of any willingness to consider arguments to the contrary that you can go ahead and search the thread yourself.

What is your issue with Pew Research?

You never linked it, so I ended up searching for it myself. Apparently so did Imperializt Russia, who did your argument a disfavor and posted it. It's obvious what the issue with it is.

Sorry, thought I posted it:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/des ... ssia-0-05/

[Imperializt Russia]

I was not able to watch the forum, since I was only on at intervals, you will have to restate them for me.

I have to do nothing of the sort. There's times where I'll slog through the forum finding my posts, but your most recent posts have been so devoid of any willingness to consider arguments to the contrary that you can go ahead and search the thread yourself.

What is your issue with Pew Research?

You never linked it, so I ended up searching for it myself. Apparently so did Imperializt Russia, who did your argument a disfavor and posted it. It's obvious what the issue with it is.

Unless you made the same mistake as I did and only read the first page (of five), what was it, since I seem to have missed it also.

[Laerod]

I have to do nothing of the sort. There's times where I'll slog through the forum finding my posts, but your most recent posts have been so devoid of any willingness to consider arguments to the contrary that you can go ahead and search the thread yourself.

You never linked it, so I ended up searching for it myself. Apparently so did Imperializt Russia, who did your argument a disfavor and posted it. It's obvious what the issue with it is.

Sorry, thought I posted it:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/des ... ssia-0-05/

Ah, so that's where it's from. Not particularly relevant since a poll isn't a free or fair referendum.

[Laerod]

I have to do nothing of the sort. There's times where I'll slog through the forum finding my posts, but your most recent posts have been so devoid of any willingness to consider arguments to the contrary that you can go ahead and search the thread yourself.

You never linked it, so I ended up searching for it myself. Apparently so did Imperializt Russia, who did your argument a disfavor and posted it. It's obvious what the issue with it is.

Unless you made the same mistake as I did and only read the first page (of five), what was it, since I seem to have missed it also.

Seems so. Odd thing about that 88% coincidence.