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Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

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Political Wisdom
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Postby Political Wisdom » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:00 am

Ukraine wants EU integration and NATO membership, and there is nothing wrong with that. However in order to achieve it, I believe Ukraine should be prepared to permanently release its control over the Donbass region. It cannot defeat Russian-backed separatists in military conflict because Russia is simply too strong. But the Ukraine government should also avoid Putin's plan of the Donbass remaining an autonomous region within Ukraine, because he would use his influence over this region to politically interfere with the country's ambitions to join NATO, and thus preventing its future territorial security.

It would be much better if Ukraine insists that the Donbass region should become a weak little country of its own, which Russia may or may not annex in future to its own economic cost, especially as it will continue to incur further sanctions from the West.

Ukraine nationalists may balk at this kind of action, or see it as a defeat, but I think the prospect of free sovereignty, European economic integration, and the security of NATO membership is something that is ultimately worth paying a high price for, and could actually be seen as a victory against Putin's dictatorship in a moral sense. After all, Ukraine would still remain a fairly large country and its number of remaining Russian speakers - which Putin claims to be 'protecting' - would be considerably less.

Let's not forget that Putin's number one political goal is not really to re-construct the Soviet Union - but more simply to hold on to the Russian presidency for life and to have influence over others. He's much more of a self-centered right-wing fascist dictator, than a left-wing empire-building communist. Continued isolation and a severely weakened Russian economy would probably eventually lead to his political demise.
Last edited by Political Wisdom on Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Slavonian kingdom
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Postby Slavonian kingdom » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:00 am

]
Laerod wrote:
Slavonian kingdom wrote:I feel sorry for the Russians. They have always been second class citizens in their own country for the last 150 years.

Second class to whom exactly?

To various insane dictators and ruling elites. From the Tsars to the Bolsheviks and so on. Everybody was behaving to then as if they were dogs or something like that.

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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:01 am

Lyttenburg wrote:Hey, lingustics-expert - can you differentiate a Kharkiv native from the Belgorod region native when they speak Russian? I've trouble - and I was in Kharkiv, and served together with guys from Belgorod.

So your argument is that you can't differentiate between "polite green men" and "self defense forces"?

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Lyttenburg
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Postby Lyttenburg » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:01 am

Lemanrussland wrote:The 12 point ceasefire plan that was negotiated in Belarus has been announced. There will be prisoner exchanges and a promise of federalization for the eastern territories.

The seperatists/Russian troops in southeast Ukraine began shelling the satellite towns of Mariupol in the hours before the ceasefire was called.

Almost everyone is expressing caution/measured optimism over the ceasefire, and the rebels have said the ceasefire is only an immediate measure to stop the bloodshed, they still intend to establish an independent pro-Russian state, by force if necessary. The ceasefire is to be monitored by the OSCE.


According to latest reports, forces of Novorossiya have actually entered Mariupol and re-captured several city districts.
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Slavonian kingdom
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Postby Slavonian kingdom » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:02 am

Lyttenburg wrote:
Slavonian kingdom wrote:I feel sorry for the Russians. They have always been second class citizens in their own country for the last 150 years.


Thank you, but I don't need you false pity, as neither me, nor anyone who I know consider themselves a "second class citizens in their own country for the last 150 years".

And why 150 years? Why not 500?

Well, it is ok, you don't know better than living under a dictatorship or crony capitalism.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:03 am

Slavonian kingdom wrote:
Lyttenburg wrote:
Thank you, but I don't need you false pity, as neither me, nor anyone who I know consider themselves a "second class citizens in their own country for the last 150 years".

And why 150 years? Why not 500?

Well, it is ok, you don't know better than living under a dictatorship or crony capitalism.

Right, well, that's not exactly the topic here, so let's drop it, shall we?
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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:04 am

United Marxist Nations wrote:The referendum may very well be fair: according to a Pew Research poll, 88% of Crimeans want Kiev to recognize the referendum. That, coupled with those opposing the referendum boycotting, could have easily led to the result.

Edit: source. Also, the turnout was in the 80%+, so that makes my theory quite possible.

No. Whether it actually manages to reflect public opinion has no impact on its legality. Not to mention there's severe doubts regarding the turnout raised by the President of Russia's Council on Civil Society and Human Rights.

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Slavonian kingdom
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Postby Slavonian kingdom » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:05 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Slavonian kingdom wrote:Well, it is ok, you don't know better than living under a dictatorship or crony capitalism.

Right, well, that's not exactly the topic here, so let's drop it, shall we?

Yes, you are right. Ukraine is the thread.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:06 am

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
The rebels must have gotten their fake ballots from somewhere, maybe it was Tsar Vlad? As for your second statement, me saying Russia should hold an actual referendum with real observers (not ultra nationalists who oppose anything relating to NATO or the EU) has nothing to do with Russian troops turning away the few non biased observers that showed up. I was saying Russia should let the UN organize and hold a referendum in Crimea where people aren't held at gunpoint and actually let them have a free vote to see what they want. But we both know the Dear Leader won't allow such banderist things to happen.

The referendum may very well be fair: according to a Pew Research poll, 88% of Crimeans want Kiev to recognize the referendum. That, coupled with those opposing the referendum boycotting, could have easily led to the result.

Edit: source. Also, the turnout was in the 80%+, so that makes my theory quite possible.


That's odd, how do you explain this?
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Dragomerian Islands
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Postby Dragomerian Islands » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:11 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:The referendum may very well be fair: according to a Pew Research poll, 88% of Crimeans want Kiev to recognize the referendum. That, coupled with those opposing the referendum boycotting, could have easily led to the result.

Edit: source. Also, the turnout was in the 80%+, so that makes my theory quite possible.


That's odd, how do you explain this?

Propaganda that is spreading mistruths.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:11 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:The referendum may very well be fair: according to a Pew Research poll, 88% of Crimeans want Kiev to recognize the referendum. That, coupled with those opposing the referendum boycotting, could have easily led to the result.

Edit: source. Also, the turnout was in the 80%+, so that makes my theory quite possible.


That's odd, how do you explain this?

As was said in the first two threads beforehand, those weren't the actual referendum results, those were surveys in a few neighborhoods in Crimea, IIRC.
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Postby Jinwoy » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:12 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:The referendum may very well be fair: according to a Pew Research poll, 88% of Crimeans want Kiev to recognize the referendum. That, coupled with those opposing the referendum boycotting, could have easily led to the result.

Edit: source. Also, the turnout was in the 80%+, so that makes my theory quite possible.


That's odd, how do you explain this?


Ah yes, the Presidents Human Rights council statement. The one which was up for a good 24 hours before being taken down and still didn't get indexed, or cached, or can not be found anywhere on the internet. Is that the statement the source is referring to?

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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:12 am

Laerod wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:The referendum may very well be fair: according to a Pew Research poll, 88% of Crimeans want Kiev to recognize the referendum. That, coupled with those opposing the referendum boycotting, could have easily led to the result.

Edit: source. Also, the turnout was in the 80%+, so that makes my theory quite possible.

No. Whether it actually manages to reflect public opinion has no impact on its legality. Not to mention there's severe doubts regarding the turnout raised by the President of Russia's Council on Civil Society and Human Rights.

Then what would have made the referendum legal? Many states that exist today were illegally created.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:15 am

Dragomerian Islands wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
That's odd, how do you explain this?

Propaganda that is spreading mistruths.


Ah yes, the ebul banderist propaganda machine is at work. Somehow posting things on a Russian government website, maybe they're using the same black magic that allowed an SU-25 to shoot down MH-17.

Jinwoy wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
That's odd, how do you explain this?


Ah yes, the Presidents Human Rights council statement. The one which was up for a good 24 hours before being taken down and still didn't get indexed, or cached, or can not be found anywhere on the internet. Is that the statement the source is referring to?


Indeed it is, it even has a screen cap of the text and a horridly translated version. Speaking of, if someone could better translate the Russian text better than Google that would be appreciated.
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Dragomerian Islands
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Postby Dragomerian Islands » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:17 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Dragomerian Islands wrote:Propaganda that is spreading mistruths.


Ah yes, the ebul banderist propaganda machine is at work. Somehow posting things on a Russian government website, maybe they're using the same black magic that allowed an SU-25 to shoot down MH-17.

Jinwoy wrote:
Ah yes, the Presidents Human Rights council statement. The one which was up for a good 24 hours before being taken down and still didn't get indexed, or cached, or can not be found anywhere on the internet. Is that the statement the source is referring to?


Indeed it is, it even has a screen cap of the text and a horridly translated version. Speaking of, if someone could better translate the Russian text better than Google that would be appreciated.

Where is your proof that that page even existed, besides that article. It would have been archived somewhere if it truly existed; however, no such archival exists.
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Lyttenburg
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Postby Lyttenburg » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:22 am

United Marxist Nations wrote:Then what would have made the referendum legal? Many states that exist today were illegally created.


Yeah! That Latin America's separatists fighting against Just and Lawful Governments of Portugal and Spain! Recaiving foreign aid! Unlawful and un-clear referendums without international supervision!

Also wouldn't part of the former British colonies be so kind to re-stage their refrendum-thingy? Just to prove to all high and low, that it was really an opinion of all American People.
Last edited by Lyttenburg on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I wholeheartedly support the Great Ukraine from Lviv to Ternopil!
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:26 am

Dragomerian Islands wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Ah yes, the ebul banderist propaganda machine is at work. Somehow posting things on a Russian government website, maybe they're using the same black magic that allowed an SU-25 to shoot down MH-17.



Indeed it is, it even has a screen cap of the text and a horridly translated version. Speaking of, if someone could better translate the Russian text better than Google that would be appreciated.

Where is your proof that that page even existed, besides that article. It would have been archived somewhere if it truly existed; however, no such archival exists.


Do you really expect me to believe Forbes made a fake screencap of the text and an even worse translation :eyebrow: For some reason this doesn't seem like something a business magazine would cook up.
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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:26 am

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Laerod wrote:No. Whether it actually manages to reflect public opinion has no impact on its legality. Not to mention there's severe doubts regarding the turnout raised by the President of Russia's Council on Civil Society and Human Rights.

Then what would have made the referendum legal?

Would you actually listen if I told you? Would you genuinely change your mind if I pointed out to you what exactly was wrong with the referendum?

I'm willing to educate people on this but so far I'm underwhelmed by the willingness to learn. So don't see this as a dodge. See this as me genuinely asking if you're intellectually honest enough to handle a criticism of the referendum because for the past couple hours I have been debating someone that clearly is not.
Many states that exist today were illegally created.

There's that stupid historical tu quoque fallacy again.

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Dragomerian Islands
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Postby Dragomerian Islands » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:29 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Dragomerian Islands wrote:Where is your proof that that page even existed, besides that article. It would have been archived somewhere if it truly existed; however, no such archival exists.


Do you really expect me to believe Forbes made a fake screencap of the text and an even worse translation :eyebrow: For some reason this doesn't seem like something a business magazine would cook up.

Just about anyone proficient in photoshop can make a fake screenshot.

Also, do you rally think that a government would publish one result and then make another different result available for such people to post online?
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Postby Napkiraly » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:29 am

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Laerod wrote:No. Whether it actually manages to reflect public opinion has no impact on its legality. Not to mention there's severe doubts regarding the turnout raised by the President of Russia's Council on Civil Society and Human Rights.

Then what would have made the referendum legal? Many states that exist today were illegally created.

Kiev agreeing to it. Kiev did not approve of a referendum. Have the Ukrainian government agree to a referendum, have a proper debate/time period for campaigning, allow neutral outside watchdogs to ensure both sides keep shenanigans to a minimum. After that, the results will be the results.

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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:31 am

Laerod wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Then what would have made the referendum legal?

Would you actually listen if I told you? Would you genuinely change your mind if I pointed out to you what exactly was wrong with the referendum?

I'm willing to educate people on this but so far I'm underwhelmed by the willingness to learn. So don't see this as a dodge. See this as me genuinely asking if you're intellectually honest enough to handle a criticism of the referendum because for the past couple hours I have been debating someone that clearly is not.
Many states that exist today were illegally created.

There's that stupid historical tu quoque fallacy again.

There are obviously things wrong with the referendum, but that doesn't automatically mean it was undemocratic; given the stated turnout, boycotts, and public opinion, the result given is quite likely.

How is it tu quoque? I'm saying that just because a state is sovereign doesn't mean it has the right to not allow populations to leave by referendum. If most of the people in a part of a country want independence or to become part of another country, let them.
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Dragomerian Islands
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Postby Dragomerian Islands » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:31 am

Napkiraly wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Then what would have made the referendum legal? Many states that exist today were illegally created.

Kiev agreeing to it. Kiev did not approve of a referendum. Have the Ukrainian government agree to a referendum, have a proper debate/time period for campaigning, allow neutral outside watchdogs to ensure both sides keep shenanigans to a minimum. After that, the results will be the results.

You do not need government approval for a referendum.
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Postby Farnhamia » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:32 am

Dragomerian Islands wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Do you really expect me to believe Forbes made a fake screencap of the text and an even worse translation :eyebrow: For some reason this doesn't seem like something a business magazine would cook up.

Just about anyone proficient in photoshop can make a fake screenshot.

Also, do you rally think that a government would publish one result and then make another different result available for such people to post online?

I think the point is that the bad-looking result was published by mistake and hurriedly withdrawn, though not before someone at Forbes found it. Forbes is a fairly prestigious organization, why would they bother faking such a thing, considering the damage it could do to their reputation if it were discovered?
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:32 am

Dragomerian Islands wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Kiev agreeing to it. Kiev did not approve of a referendum. Have the Ukrainian government agree to a referendum, have a proper debate/time period for campaigning, allow neutral outside watchdogs to ensure both sides keep shenanigans to a minimum. After that, the results will be the results.

You do not need government approval for a referendum.

In a unitary state, which Ukraine is, you do.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:35 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Dragomerian Islands wrote:Just about anyone proficient in photoshop can make a fake screenshot.

Also, do you rally think that a government would publish one result and then make another different result available for such people to post online?

I think the point is that the bad-looking result was published by mistake and hurriedly withdrawn, though not before someone at Forbes found it. Forbes is a fairly prestigious organization, why would they bother faking such a thing, considering the damage it could do to their reputation if it were discovered?


Farn gets it :hug:

As for your question Drago I don't think a government would willingly publish that, and it's why it was taken down so fast. Based on what I know, any member of the Council can upload things to the website without needing express permission from anyone higher up. Therefore someone uploaded their findings, it didn't sit well with the government and it was taken down.
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