Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Jinwoy]

No-no-no! That won't do! It was you equaling Transdniestria, Abkhazia ans South Ossetia situations with what "current regime" in Russia is doing in its near abroad. Give your answer - so I we can use it as an actual part of this discussion.

Why? What's there to discuss?

By the way - what is the current regime in France? Or in the US of A? Should I start to call Germany "Merkel-Reich"?

Look it up on wikipedia if you don't know.

Rhetorical Question:
A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point. The question, a rhetorical device, is posed not to elicit a specific answer, but rather to encourage the listener to consider a message or viewpoint.

[Organized States]

Hmm... Odd. I'm not aware of anything in the Western sources other than from what I'm hearing around.

Perhaps the Ukraine is involved in a recovery operation for the pilot of the aircraft if it was indeed shot down?

I'm not sure about the time frame. The only thing I can find is from Novorossiya and Russian sources about a Su-27 being shot down near Merezhki. The latter page (a VK) claims almost a dozen other Ukrainian aircraft being taken down in the vicinity.

That's what I'm confused about, I'm hearing the last 24 hours, but your finds are dating from a few days ago. Perhaps some sort of propaganda or disinformation? Though I'm currently thinking that the Ukrainian Air Force is involved in some sort of recovery operation for the pilot (as they have in the past, not confirmed if their aircraft have been lost until they attempt some sort of SAR operation).

[Laerod]

Rhetorical Question:
A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point. The question, a rhetorical device, is posed not to elicit a specific answer, but rather to encourage the listener to consider a message or viewpoint.

Stupid questions get stupid answers, even if they're rhetorical.

[Jinwoy]

Rhetorical Question:
A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point. The question, a rhetorical device, is posed not to elicit a specific answer, but rather to encourage the listener to consider a message or viewpoint.

Stupid questions get stupid answers, even if they're rhetorical.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[Laerod]

Stupid questions get stupid answers, even if they're rhetorical.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Well, you could try to read up on the context of the conversation.

[Jinwoy]

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Well, you could try to read up on the context of the conversation.

No, it still doesn't make sense to ever answer a rhetorical question.

[Lyttenburg]

Oh, Russia can have special snowflakes. It just doesn't. Being Russia doesn't preclude it from having valid cases, its lack of valid cases thus far does.

Given that after Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts proclaimed their independence from Kiev they were imediately invaded by the new Ukrainian government, which resulted in (at least) 1 million of refugees, definetly uch more then official "2600 dead" and not yet calculated damage to the infrastrucure, I can say that , yes, Russian troops defended people of Crimea form the treatment that only a few orders better then genocide.

I don't actually need to show anything of the sort. Putin would need to show that a free and fair referendum took place, and there wasn't one, so that's not something he can do. You can't legally justify a break away on grounds of a referendum that fails to be free and fair, especially not if there's no concerted campaign of ethnic violence or ethnic cleansing or at least permission from the nation the region is breaking away from.

Now, I could go ahead and prove that the referendum was neither free nor fair (and boy is that fucking easy), but I have no intention of hunting through a bunch of pictures and links for you unless you can demonstrate to me that you'd be willing to accept factual evidence that contradicts your position and change your mind. Everything you've posted thus far tells me that you're thoroughly subscribed to either anti-Western or pro-Russian propaganda and would reject any concrete evidence I can provide out of hand.

No - it's you who are accusing Russia of conducting a non kosher referendum, that didn't express the feelings of the Crimeans. The question here is an easy one - do or do not Crimeans want to be a part of Russia? For a self-determination this is the only one relevant.

[Bulgar Rouge]

I'm not sure about the time frame. The only thing I can find is from Novorossiya and Russian sources about a Su-27 being shot down near Merezhki. The latter page (a VK) claims almost a dozen other Ukrainian aircraft being taken down in the vicinity.

That's what I'm confused about, I'm hearing the last 24 hours, but your finds are dating from a few days ago. Perhaps some sort of propaganda or disinformation? Though I'm currently thinking that the Ukrainian Air Force is involved in some sort of recovery operation for the pilot (as they have in the past, not confirmed if their aircraft have been lost until they attempt some sort of SAR operation).

To be honest, I have less doubt in such claims by the rebels than I do about statements regarding ground battles. Most of the aircraft shot down are quite old and wouldn't stand a chance against Russian-supplied SAM systems. Btw that list explicitly states that the aircraft was destroyed in the air, pilot dead.

[Lyttenburg]

Why? What's there to discuss?

But it was you who pulled that "Russia's current regime messes with near aborad" nonsense! Was Putin using his malign influece as early as 1992-93?

Look it up on wikipedia if you don't know.

When was the last time you called the government of France, Germany and the USA "regime"?

[Estruia]

Oh, Russia can have special snowflakes. It just doesn't. Being Russia doesn't preclude it from having valid cases, its lack of valid cases thus far does.

Given that after Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts proclaimed their independence from Kiev they were imediately invaded by the new Ukrainian government, which resulted in (at least) 1 million of refugees, definetly uch more then official "2600 dead" and not yet calculated damage to the infrastrucure, I can say that , yes, Russian troops defended people of Crimea form the treatment that only a few orders better then genocide.

Do you actually believe the outrageous things you say sometimes?

[Washington Resistance Army]

No - it's you who are accusing Russia of conducting a non kosher referendum, that didn't express the feelings of the Crimeans. The question here is an easy one - do or do not Crimeans want to be a part of Russia? For a self-determination this is the only one relevant.

Why doesn't Russia let the UN hold an open referendum in Crimea to see what people actually vote for? Because last time around it was full of problems, like how some areas had 120% voter turnout. After all those fake ballots were captured in Eastern Ukraine a few months ago I wouldn't be surprised if Russian troops just stuffed ballot boxes with yes votes.

[Lyttenburg]

Why doesn't Russia let the UN hold an open referendum in Crimea to see what people actually vote for? Because last time around it was full of problems, like how some areas had 120% voter turnout. After all those fake ballots were captured in Eastern Ukraine a few months ago I wouldn't be surprised if Russian troops just stuffed ballot boxes with yes votes.

Actually Crimea invited UN monitors to participate in the Referendum - it refused.

Also - have you proof that Russian soldiers actually stuffed the ballot box with yes votes?

Again, I'm asking this question since March, could someone prove that Crimeans wanted (and still want) to be part of the Ukraine, not Russia?

[Laerod]

Oh, Russia can have special snowflakes. It just doesn't. Being Russia doesn't preclude it from having valid cases, its lack of valid cases thus far does.

Given that after Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts proclaimed their independence from Kiev they were imediately invaded by the new Ukrainian government, which resulted in (at least) 1 million of refugees, definetly uch more then official "2600 dead" and not yet calculated damage to the infrastrucure, I can say that , yes, Russian troops defended people of Crimea form the treatment that only a few orders better then genocide.

Nope.

I don't actually need to show anything of the sort. Putin would need to show that a free and fair referendum took place, and there wasn't one, so that's not something he can do. You can't legally justify a break away on grounds of a referendum that fails to be free and fair, especially not if there's no concerted campaign of ethnic violence or ethnic cleansing or at least permission from the nation the region is breaking away from.

Now, I could go ahead and prove that the referendum was neither free nor fair (and boy is that fucking easy), but I have no intention of hunting through a bunch of pictures and links for you unless you can demonstrate to me that you'd be willing to accept factual evidence that contradicts your position and change your mind. Everything you've posted thus far tells me that you're thoroughly subscribed to either anti-Western or pro-Russian propaganda and would reject any concrete evidence I can provide out of hand.

No - it's you who are accusing Russia of conducting a non kosher referendum,

It may be me who's accusing Russia of conducting a sham referendum, but the onus was always on Putin to show that it wasn't.

that didn't express the feelings of the Crimeans.

Sham referendums are not a legal basis.

The question here is an easy one - do or do not Crimeans want to be a part of Russia? For a self-determination this is the only one relevant.

Sham referendums are not a legal basis.

[Lyttenburg]

Do you actually believe the outrageous things you say sometimes?

No, what is really outrageous is denying the looming humanitarian catasrophe in the East of the Ukraine and dispute that it was caused by the actins of the Ukrainian government.

[Laerod]

Why? What's there to discuss?

But it was you who pulled that "Russia's current regime messes with near aborad" nonsense! Was Putin using his malign influece as early as 1992-93?

For someone that claims to understand what I write you've failed spectacularly in doing so.

Look it up on wikipedia if you don't know.

When was the last time you called the government of France, Germany and the USA "regime"?

I typically don't as they're not authoritarian governments. Technically it would be accurate to refer to them as such as the denotation of the term is rather neutral and only really means the state of things. The connotation is negative, but that's why I reserve it for countries like Iran, Russia, or China.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Oh, Russia can have special snowflakes. It just doesn't. Being Russia doesn't preclude it from having valid cases, its lack of valid cases thus far does.

Given that after Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts proclaimed their independence from Kiev they were imediately invaded by the new Ukrainian government, which resulted in (at least) 1 million of refugees, definetly uch more then official "2600 dead" and not yet calculated damage to the infrastrucure, I can say that , yes, Russian troops defended people of Crimea form the treatment that only a few orders better then genocide.

Brave Ukrainian self-defense volunteers are defending people of East Ukraine from rebel/Russian oppression that is only a few orders better than genocide.

[Laerod]

Why doesn't Russia let the UN hold an open referendum in Crimea to see what people actually vote for? Because last time around it was full of problems, like how some areas had 120% voter turnout. After all those fake ballots were captured in Eastern Ukraine a few months ago I wouldn't be surprised if Russian troops just stuffed ballot boxes with yes votes.

Actually Crimea invited UN monitors to participate in the Referendum - it refused.

Surely you mean OSCE monitors? Though even then there were some that tried to and were forced out.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Why doesn't Russia let the UN hold an open referendum in Crimea to see what people actually vote for? Because last time around it was full of problems, like how some areas had 120% voter turnout. After all those fake ballots were captured in Eastern Ukraine a few months ago I wouldn't be surprised if Russian troops just stuffed ballot boxes with yes votes.

Actually Crimea invited UN monitors to participate in the Referendum - it refused.

Also - have you proof that Russian soldiers actually stuffed the ballot box with yes votes?

Again, I'm asking this question since March, could someone prove that Crimeans wanted (and still want) to be part of the Ukraine, not Russia?

Given all of these fake ballots were captured in eastern Ukraine it isn't really a stretch to imagine the Russian's did the same in Crimea. As for Crimea inviting observers, they did indeed invite them but most refused to arrive given they did not recognize Crimea's authority to do so. The few OSCE observers who did arrive to observe were turned away at gunpoint and Russia instead invited a bunch of ultra right wing groups from all over Europe to observe.

[Lyttenburg]

Given that after Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts proclaimed their independence from Kiev they were imediately invaded by the new Ukrainian government, which resulted in (at least) 1 million of refugees, definetly uch more then official "2600 dead" and not yet calculated damage to the infrastrucure, I can say that , yes, Russian troops defended people of Crimea form the treatment that only a few orders better then genocide.

Nope.

Oh, I'm sorry! Maybe it was the People Republic's militias who marched on Kiev and mercilessly shelled the capital and environs?

It may be me who's accusing Russia of conducting a sham referendum, but the onus was always on Putin to show that it wasn't.

that didn't express the feelings of the Crimeans.

Sham referendums are not a legal basis.

The question here is an easy one - do or do not Crimeans want to be a part of Russia? For a self-determination this is the only one relevant.

Sham referendums are not a legal basis.

I'm sorry, but what about this western notion of whatsitsname - "Presmption of Innocence"?

[Laerod]

Nope.

Oh, I'm sorry! Maybe it was the People Republic's militias who marched on Kiev and mercilessly shelled the capital and environs?

?

It may be me who's accusing Russia of conducting a sham referendum, but the onus was always on Putin to show that it wasn't.

Sham referendums are not a legal basis.

Sham referendums are not a legal basis.

I'm sorry, but what about this western notion of whatsitsname - "Presmption of Innocence"?

It's like I'm in a creationism debate and someone quoted the third law of thermodynamics to disprove evolution.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Nope.

Oh, I'm sorry! Maybe it was the People Republic's militias who marched on Kiev and mercilessly shelled the capital and environs?

It may be me who's accusing Russia of conducting a sham referendum, but the onus was always on Putin to show that it wasn't.

Sham referendums are not a legal basis.

Sham referendums are not a legal basis.

I'm sorry, but what about this western notion of whatsitsname - "Presmption of Innocence"?

Since Russia invaded Crimea, and has now admitted (contrary to your own previous claims on this question) that those 'little green men' were in fact Russian soldiers, presumption of innocence is rather far out the door by this point.
You see, presumption of innocence only applies when there is not overwhelming proof of an actor taking some kind of action. Since one has to be a solipsist to continue with the 'Russia derd nuthing!' line of reasoning used to justify your argument, Russia now has the burden of proving the Crimean referendum was free and fair. Which you, and they, apparently, cannot do.

[Lyttenburg]

Given all of these fake ballots were captured in eastern Ukraine it isn't really a stretch to imagine the Russian's did the same in Crimea.

Soryy - did Russia conduct the referendums in the Eastern Ukraine?

As for Crimea inviting observers, they did indeed invite them but most refused to arrive given they did not recognize Crimea's authority to do so. The few OSCE observers who did arrive to observe were turned away at gunpoint and Russia instead invited a bunch of ultra right wing groups from all over Europe to observe.

But wasn't you argung before that:

Why doesn't Russia let the UN hold an open referendum in Crimea to see what people actually vote for?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Given all of these fake ballots were captured in eastern Ukraine it isn't really a stretch to imagine the Russian's did the same in Crimea.

Soryy - did Russia conduct the referendums in the Eastern Ukraine?

As for Crimea inviting observers, they did indeed invite them but most refused to arrive given they did not recognize Crimea's authority to do so. The few OSCE observers who did arrive to observe were turned away at gunpoint and Russia instead invited a bunch of ultra right wing groups from all over Europe to observe.

But wasn't you argung before that:

Why doesn't Russia let the UN hold an open referendum in Crimea to see what people actually vote for?

The rebels must have gotten their fake ballots from somewhere, maybe it was Tsar Vlad? As for your second statement, me saying Russia should hold an actual referendum with real observers (not ultra nationalists who oppose anything relating to NATO or the EU) has nothing to do with Russian troops turning away the few non biased observers that showed up. I was saying Russia should let the UN organize and hold a referendum in Crimea where people aren't held at gunpoint and actually let them have a free vote to see what they want. But we both know the Dear Leader won't allow such banderist things to happen.

[Hindenburgia]

Given all of these fake ballots were captured in eastern Ukraine it isn't really a stretch to imagine the Russian's did the same in Crimea.

Soryy - did Russia conduct the referendums in the Eastern Ukraine?

As for Crimea inviting observers, they did indeed invite them but most refused to arrive given they did not recognize Crimea's authority to do so. The few OSCE observers who did arrive to observe were turned away at gunpoint and Russia instead invited a bunch of ultra right wing groups from all over Europe to observe.

But wasn't you argung before that:

Why doesn't Russia let the UN hold an open referendum in Crimea to see what people actually vote for?

I fail to see how that conflicts - he already told you that most of the observers refused to show up due to Crimea not having the authority to do that, and those that did show up were turned away at gunpoint. By Russia.

EDIT: On actually reading the source provided, it doesn't state that they were turned away by Russians, but by "unknown armed and uniformed military personnel". I am not sure where I got that from, though I would be unsurprised if it were the case.

[Lyttenburg]

The rebels must have gotten their fake ballots from somewhere, maybe it was Tsar Vlad?

First of all - who is Tsar Vlad? Second - did you ever entertained the notion that then separatists could print ballots?

As for your second statement, me saying Russia should hold an actual referendum with real observers (not ultra nationalists who oppose anything relating to NATO or the EU) has nothing to do with Russian troops turning away the few non biased observers that showed up.

Proof that it was "Russian troops turning away the few non biased observers that showed up"/

I was saying Russia should let the UN organize and hold a referendum in Crimea where people aren't held at gunpoint and actually let them have a free vote to see what they want. But we both know the Dear Leader won't allow such banderist things to happen.

Who exactly was held at hunpoint? Even thoroughly anti-Russian VICE coverage didn't provide anything of sort, au contraire - portray that majority of people were actually happy with referendum and voted for Russia.