Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Lyttenburg]

If, when you are talking about Peacekeepers, you mean South Ossetia, keep in mind that that was a joint mission with Georgian troops as well.

South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria... There's a pattern there being upheld by the current Russian regime.

Current regime? Which one? Did you even know that right after the Dissolution of the USSR there was a real war in that regions - and Russia, under Yeltsin, were welcomed as a peacekeeper force?

[Laerod]

I'll call it an annexation by force under pretense of "protecting Russian civilians" that resulted in the massacre of Katyn, among others. Because that's what that was. The relevance this has to today is that it's pretty close to what Putin is doing now. The same irredentist claims, the same bullshit about having to protect Russians. The difference is the campaign of intimidation is more subtle and perhaps not quite as brutal as Soviet-style executions and the act is blatantly illegal given several treaties Russia has signed.

"Russian civillians"? No. Show me sources that claim that.

Ukrainian and Ruthenian, my bad. The point that the Soviets claimed they interceded on behalf of "protecting civilians" stands.

Also - are you ready to call an annexation what was done to Germany in 1919, namely what happened in Alsace in the late 1918? Would you call California's enter into the US of at the end of the Amreican-Mexican war an annexation?

Yes.

[Lyttenburg]

Yeah. It would be. You still need the permission of the nation from which the territory is being taken (which was given through the conditions of Germany's surrender in that particular case), though. Also, you need a free and fair referendum or plebiscite, something which Putin has yet to show he's capable of providing.

Was there a referendum in NATo-occupied Kosovo?

As for Crimea - show me a 100% reliable proof, that Crimeans actually voted against the re-union with Russia.

[Laerod]

South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria... There's a pattern there being upheld by the current Russian regime.

Current regime? Which one? Did you even know that right after the Dissolution of the USSR there was a real war in that regions - and Russia, under Yeltsin, were welcomed as a peacekeeper force?

I understand English might not be your first language so I'll explain what you may have misunderstood: The current regime is the Putin regime. It has upheld the practice of invading sovereign countries and propping up kleptocratic quasi-states started by previous governments.

[Geanna]

Yeah. It would be. You still need the permission of the nation from which the territory is being taken (which was given through the conditions of Germany's surrender in that particular case), though. Also, you need a free and fair referendum or plebiscite, something which Putin has yet to show he's capable of providing.

Was there a referendum in NATo-occupied Kosovo?

As for Crimea - show me a 100% reliable proof, that Crimeans actually voted against the re-union with Russia.

Show me 100% reliable proof where Russia did not violate Ukrainian sovereign territory [Territory that was legally handed to Ukraine] under a bullshit pretense of ''protecting Russian citizens'' by implanting Russian forces and denying involvement up until the end - with the assumption that the West are a bunch of dense idiots. What's the Russian for ''Lebensraum''? Hmm

[Geanna]

Current regime? Which one? Did you even know that right after the Dissolution of the USSR there was a real war in that regions - and Russia, under Yeltsin, were welcomed as a peacekeeper force?

I understand English might not be your first language so I'll explain what you may have misunderstood: The current regime is the Putin regime. It has upheld the practice of invading sovereign countries and propping up kleptocratic quasi-states started by previous governments.

That and Russia has long tried to maintain a sphere of dominance over its neighbours in Eastern Europe to try and keep NATO from getting too close - that changed after the Russian backed government of Kiev collapsed. Putin's attempting to claw onto old glories that just aren't there and has built a nationalist Russia by tearing down his opposition and being a general dick on the world stage.

[Lyttenburg]

I understand English might not be your first language so I'll explain what you may have misunderstood: The current regime is the Putin regime. It has upheld the practice of invading sovereign countries and propping up kleptocratic quasi-states started by previous governments.

I understand you perfectly, despite Enlish not being my first language (btw, this tactic "I understand English might not be your first language so I'll explain" is too lame and condenscending - try something better amd tryyyyy (just a little bit) harder!)

May I ask- whom did Putin propped up in Transdniestria? In Ankhazia? In South Ossetia?

[Lyttenburg]

Show me 100% reliable proof where Russia did not violate Ukrainian sovereign territory [Territory that was legally handed to Ukraine] under a bullshit pretense of ''protecting Russian citizens'' by implanting Russian forces and denying involvement up until the end - with the assumption that the West are a bunch of dense idiots. What's the Russian for ''Lebensraum''? Hmm

What? Again "Israel Army tactic" with answering question with another question? How about actually answering them, for a change?

There is no Russian analog for "Lebensraum". But I'm pretty sure that American English for that term was "Moving frontier westward"

[Saiwania]

What's the Russian for ''Lebensraum''? Hmm

I'm not sure if accurate, but Google translate says: Zhilaya ploshchad. Жилая площадь
Edit: Yep, it's inaccurate.

[Lyttenburg]

What's the Russian for ''Lebensraum''? Hmm

I'm not sure if accurate, but Google translate says: Zhilaya ploshchad. Жилая площадь

Google translate (as usual) is dead wrong. Zhilaya ploshchad - floor space

[Saiwania]

Google translate (as usual) is dead wrong. Zhilaya ploshchad - floor space

Ah well, at least it got one word right.

[Napkiraly]

I'm not sure if accurate, but Google translate says: Zhilaya ploshchad. Жилая площадь

Google translate (as usual) is dead wrong. Zhilaya ploshchad - floor space

Is this a better translation? Жилая площадь

[Geanna]

Show me 100% reliable proof where Russia did not violate Ukrainian sovereign territory [Territory that was legally handed to Ukraine] under a bullshit pretense of ''protecting Russian citizens'' by implanting Russian forces and denying involvement up until the end - with the assumption that the West are a bunch of dense idiots. What's the Russian for ''Lebensraum''? Hmm

What? Again "Israel Army tactic" with answering question with another question? How about actually answering them, for a change?

There is no Russian analog for "Lebensraum". But I'm pretty sure that American English for that term was "Moving frontier westward"

You want to ask mindless questions - I can easily demonstrate the same. You've also assumed I'm American - I'm not try again. As for the hypocrisy of your post that I've conveniently outlined for your viewing pleasure - justifying if you could call it that - that by violating sovereign territory owned by Ukraine simply because other nations have had imperialistic notions in the past has to be the most idiotic and dense counter-argument I've ever come across.

The Japanese tried the same thing - a big shocker to the West but it wasn't all too surprising, just because [Godwin] Hitler massacred the Jews doesn't mean everyone else can do so as well. Two wrongs don't make a right - I'm pretty sure there's a similar analogy in Russia that follows those lines as well if it hasn't found its arse under Putin's boot as of yet. Putin's made a gamble that will only cause Russia to sink lower on the international stage and the brewing nationalism is going to only and sadly spread like a plague until the country is considered backwards to even Iran's standards.

Putin hasn't demonstrated a strong and progressive Russia with high hopes - He's destroyed what was a growing reputation for prosperity at the expense of the Russian public [Since they'll be the ones to suffer in his shadow] and has made it the ass and laughing stock of the rest of the Globe. Instead he's perfectly outlined how shaken and weak the current government is in trying to maintain itself by using bullshit pretenses to cover up invasions, crushing political opposition and freedoms in a memoir of the Soviet State, horribly miscalculating international responses, and practically playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded 357 Magnum.

[Organized States]

I'm not sure if accurate, but Google translate says: Zhilaya ploshchad. Жилая площадь

Google translate (as usual) is dead wrong. Zhilaya ploshchad - floor space

Google translate, can do German rather well, but most of the Eastern European dialects and languages are pretty shitty.

Also, I've heard unconfirmed reports of a Su-27 being downed by forces under the control of the Novorossiya faction, any confirmation, yet?

[Laerod]

Yeah. It would be. You still need the permission of the nation from which the territory is being taken (which was given through the conditions of Germany's surrender in that particular case), though. Also, you need a free and fair referendum or plebiscite, something which Putin has yet to show he's capable of providing.

Was there a referendum in NATo-occupied Kosovo?

In Kosovo after the Russians and NATO forces took over security? No. There was one in 1991. The move towards independence was an act of parliament, which would be another valid way of doing it. The requirement of receiving permission of Serbia was negated by Serbia's campaign of ethnic cleansing.

As for Crimea - show me a 100% reliable proof, that Crimeans actually voted against the re-union with Russia.

Why?

[Laerod]

I understand English might not be your first language so I'll explain what you may have misunderstood: The current regime is the Putin regime. It has upheld the practice of invading sovereign countries and propping up kleptocratic quasi-states started by previous governments.

I understand you perfectly, despite Enlish not being my first language (btw, this tactic "I understand English might not be your first language so I'll explain" is too lame and condenscending - try something better amd tryyyyy (just a little bit) harder!)

I wasn't trying to be condescending. I genuinely assumed you hadn't understood what I'd written because what you posted makes no sense.

May I ask- whom did Putin propped up in Transdniestria? In Ankhazia? In South Ossetia?

You may. You could also just look it up on Wikipedia or whatever official websites the quasi-states might have.

[Imperializt Russia]

Google translate (as usual) is dead wrong. Zhilaya ploshchad - floor space

Google translate, can do German rather well, but most of the Eastern European dialects and languages are pretty shitty.

Also, I've heard unconfirmed reports of a Su-27 being downed by forces under the control of the Novorossiya faction, any confirmation, yet?

I don't know why you expect a translation of "living space" or "living room" into a different language to give yet another thing.
Lebensraum is a political term, much like Realpolitik or Blitzkrieg.
Going for a "direct translation" on Google Translate is going to give you the "direct translation" of the words, not the concept.

[Bulgar Rouge]

Google translate (as usual) is dead wrong. Zhilaya ploshchad - floor space

Google translate, can do German rather well, but most of the Eastern European dialects and languages are pretty shitty.

Also, I've heard unconfirmed reports of a Su-27 being downed by forces under the control of the Novorossiya faction, any confirmation, yet?

Looked up Russian outlets, nothing yet. Ukraine and Novorossiya however have signed a ceasefire protocol entering force in 18:00.

[Organized States]

Google translate, can do German rather well, but most of the Eastern European dialects and languages are pretty shitty.

Also, I've heard unconfirmed reports of a Su-27 being downed by forces under the control of the Novorossiya faction, any confirmation, yet?

Looked up Russian outlets, nothing yet. Ukraine and Novorossiya however have signed a ceasefire protocol entering force in 18:00.

Hmm... Odd. I'm not aware of anything in the Western sources other than from what I'm hearing around.

Perhaps the Ukraine is involved in a recovery operation for the pilot of the aircraft if it was indeed shot down?

[Lyttenburg]

You want to ask mindless questions - I can easily demonstrate the same. You've also assumed I'm American - I'm not try again. As for the hypocrisy of your post that I've conveniently outlined for your viewing pleasure - justifying if you could call it that - that by violating sovereign territory owned by Ukraine simply because other nations have had imperialistic notions in the past has to be the most idiotic and dense counter-argument I've ever come across.

The Japanese tried the same thing - a big shocker to the West but it wasn't all too surprising, just because [Godwin] Hitler massacred the Jews doesn't mean everyone else can do so as well. Two wrongs don't make a right - I'm pretty sure there's a similar analogy in Russia that follows those lines as well if it hasn't found its arse under Putin's boot as of yet. Putin's made a gamble that will only cause Russia to sink lower on the international stage and the brewing nationalism is going to only and sadly spread like a plague until the country is considered backwards to even Iran's standards.

You see, what all this situation with West crying "Two wrongs don't make a right!" reminds me? It reminds me of a ruthless killer and bandit, who through racket, robbery, threats and killing earned a lot of money, prestige and influence and then, one day, is seeing a competition attempting to do the same. And while considering the ways to kill this new competition, this "robber baron" also uses his newly acquired influnce to cry about "law" and "justice". That's West for me.

What is Russia doing now - is showing right into the self-righteous face of the West and its "unipolar world" all of its wrongs. This thigs are done to change the current world order when only one power can do pretty much anything. Either none can do that at all, or everything is permissable to anyone. And because the former is no-brainer to anyone, there is a need to re-negotiate New World Order wotkings.

Putin hasn't demonstrated a strong and progressive Russia with high hopes - He's destroyed what was a growing reputation for prosperity at the expense of the Russian public [Since they'll be the ones to suffer in his shadow] and has made it the ass and laughing stock of the rest of the Globe. Instead he's perfectly outlined how shaken and weak the current government is in trying to maintain itself by using bullshit pretenses to cover up invasions, crushing political opposition and freedoms in a memoir of the Soviet State, horribly miscalculating international responses, and practically playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded 357 Magnum.

Oh, cut this nonsense! West always was "very critical" to Russia. At first, in 90s it was condescending false pitying of "those poor Russians that gonna die out pretty soon", now - West is shitting bricks at fact that Russia not only didn't die out, bit also is flexing its politicle influence in the World (which should be only Western right!). You are talking about "strong and progressive Russia" and "a growing reputation for prosperity" - but when the West, always (with the exception when it needed Russian cannon fodder) Eussophobic West expressed such sentiments?

Hey, expert - what international responses did Purin miscalculate? Its actually the Blessed West, who was over itself after February 22, who thought that it "won" the Ukraine.

[Lyttenburg]

Was there a referendum in NATo-occupied Kosovo?

In Kosovo after the Russians and NATO forces took over security? No. There was one in 1991. The move towards independence was an act of parliament, which would be another valid way of doing it. The requirement of receiving permission of Serbia was negated by Serbia's campaign of ethnic cleansing.

Oh, so West can have a "unique sowflakes"m but Russia can not? Splendid! Also - have you heard that actually it was Crimean parliament (with 93 out of 100 members present) which suggested the referendum in the first place?

As for Crimea - show me a 100% reliable proof, that Crimeans actually voted against the re-union with Russia.

Why?

To show that Crimeans, in truth, expressed their desire to remain in the Ukraine, and not be part of Russia, but vile Pitionoids manipulated the results. We are talking about the self-determination, right?

[Lyttenburg]

May I ask- whom did Putin propped up in Transdniestria? In Ankhazia? In South Ossetia?

You may. You could also just look it up on Wikipedia or whatever official websites the quasi-states might have.

No-no-no! That won't do! It was you equaling Transdniestria, Abkhazia ans South Ossetia situations with what "current regime" in Russia is doing in its near abroad. Give your answer - so I we can use it as an actual part of this discussion.

By the way - what is the current regime in France? Or in the US of A? Should I start to call Germany "Merkel-Reich"?

[Bulgar Rouge]

Looked up Russian outlets, nothing yet. Ukraine and Novorossiya however have signed a ceasefire protocol entering force in 18:00.

Hmm... Odd. I'm not aware of anything in the Western sources other than from what I'm hearing around.

Perhaps the Ukraine is involved in a recovery operation for the pilot of the aircraft if it was indeed shot down?

I'm not sure about the time frame. The only thing I can find is from Novorossiya and Russian sources about a Su-27 being shot down near Merezhki. The latter page (a VK) claims almost a dozen other Ukrainian aircraft being taken down in the vicinity.

EDIT: Looking through that second list, that must be it. Only one Su-27 is listed as being shot down on September 1 out of a total of 37 aircraft destroyed since April.

[Laerod]

In Kosovo after the Russians and NATO forces took over security? No. There was one in 1991. The move towards independence was an act of parliament, which would be another valid way of doing it. The requirement of receiving permission of Serbia was negated by Serbia's campaign of ethnic cleansing.

Oh, so West can have a "unique sowflakes"m but Russia can not? Splendid! Also - have you heard that actually it was Crimean parliament (with 93 out of 100 members present) which suggested the referendum in the first place?

Oh, Russia can have special snowflakes. It just doesn't. Being Russia doesn't preclude it from having valid cases, its lack of valid cases thus far does.

Why?

To show that Crimeans, in truth, expressed their desire to remain in the Ukraine, and not be part of Russia, but vile Pitionoids manipulated the results. We are talking about the self-determination, right?

I don't actually need to show anything of the sort. Putin would need to show that a free and fair referendum took place, and there wasn't one, so that's not something he can do. You can't legally justify a break away on grounds of a referendum that fails to be free and fair, especially not if there's no concerted campaign of ethnic violence or ethnic cleansing or at least permission from the nation the region is breaking away from.

Now, I could go ahead and prove that the referendum was neither free nor fair (and boy is that fucking easy), but I have no intention of hunting through a bunch of pictures and links for you unless you can demonstrate to me that you'd be willing to accept factual evidence that contradicts your position and change your mind. Everything you've posted thus far tells me that you're thoroughly subscribed to either anti-Western or pro-Russian propaganda and would reject any concrete evidence I can provide out of hand.

[Laerod]

You may. You could also just look it up on Wikipedia or whatever official websites the quasi-states might have.

No-no-no! That won't do! It was you equaling Transdniestria, Abkhazia ans South Ossetia situations with what "current regime" in Russia is doing in its near abroad. Give your answer - so I we can use it as an actual part of this discussion.

Why? What's there to discuss?

By the way - what is the current regime in France? Or in the US of A? Should I start to call Germany "Merkel-Reich"?

Look it up on wikipedia if you don't know.