Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Teemant]

Seriously? So Ukrainians have no say at all?

They did have a say. Some of them voted to join Russia and some who weren't given the privilege of democracy are now fighting to separate. But I bet you don't like *those* Ukrainians having their say.

Who did vote to join Russia? Ukraine never held such vote.

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

They did have a say. Some of them voted to join Russia and some who weren't given the privilege of democracy are now fighting to separate. But I bet you don't like *those* Ukrainians having their say.

Who did vote to join Russia? Ukraine never held such vote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014

[Teemant]

Who did vote to join Russia? Ukraine never held such vote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014

It was an illegitimate referendum.
The same wikipedia article that you posted here shows that people who weren't even Ukrainan citizens could vote. Also this "referendum" didn't have the option to leave things as they were (to change nothing).

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014

It was an illegitimate referendum.
The same wikipedia article that you posted here shows that people who weren't even Ukrainan citizens could vote.

What if they voted to stay in Ukraine? Would it have been illegitimate then? I think your reaction would be very different.
Sure, the referendum was dodgy in some ways but its fair that ethnic Russians with Russian culture and a history of being part of Russia except for the last 50 years are once again part of Russia.

[Teemant]

It was an illegitimate referendum.
The same wikipedia article that you posted here shows that people who weren't even Ukrainan citizens could vote.

What if they voted to stay in Ukraine? Would it have been illegitimate then? I think your reaction would be very different.
Sure, the referendum was dodgy in some ways but its fair that ethnic Russians with Russian culture and a history of being part of Russia except for the last 50 years are once again part of Russia.

Russians become majority in Crimea during Soviet Union. Crimean Tatars who had always lived there were deported. So please stop saying as it is a cultural and historic part of Russia.
It is an illegitimate referendum and when foreigners can vote it makes it even more absurd.

I understand that if foreigners in London would create illegitimate referendum (with frauds and everything) for London to become part of another country you would recognize this referendum without any doubts?

[Washington Resistance Army]

It was an illegitimate referendum.
The same wikipedia article that you posted here shows that people who weren't even Ukrainan citizens could vote.

What if they voted to stay in Ukraine? Would it have been illegitimate then? I think your reaction would be very different.
Sure, the referendum was dodgy in some ways but its fair that ethnic Russians with Russian culture and a history of being part of Russia except for the last 50 years are once again part of Russia.

It was 'legitimate' in the same way it would be if the US invaded England, suppressed any pro-English sources, organized a vote and let Americans come cast their votes in it.

[Jinwoy]

What if they voted to stay in Ukraine? Would it have been illegitimate then? I think your reaction would be very different.
Sure, the referendum was dodgy in some ways but its fair that ethnic Russians with Russian culture and a history of being part of Russia except for the last 50 years are once again part of Russia.

Russians become majority in Crimea during Soviet Union. Crimean Tatars who had always lived there were deported. So please stop saying as it is a cultural and historic part of Russia.
It is an illegitimate referendum and when foreigners can vote it makes it even more absurd.

I understand that if foreigners in London would create illegitimate referendum (with frauds and everything) for London to become part of another country you would recognize this referendum without any doubts?

Russian majority in a place that's been Ukrainian for 50+ years? ahonhon, once again, you have oversimplified history silly rabbit.
Even then, I bet there's a very few number of countries based around their original inhabitants. But we don't bring them up because they are no longer relevant to modern history.
What matters is Crimea now wants to join Russia. They should be free to do so.
Imagine if Kalinigrad joined Poland, or Germany? I bet people wouldn't be kicking up a fuss about that >.>

[Jinwoy]

What if they voted to stay in Ukraine? Would it have been illegitimate then? I think your reaction would be very different.
Sure, the referendum was dodgy in some ways but its fair that ethnic Russians with Russian culture and a history of being part of Russia except for the last 50 years are once again part of Russia.

It was 'legitimate' in the same way it would be if the US invaded England, suppressed any pro-English sources, organized a vote and let Americans come cast their votes in it.

Western sources showed us, time and again, Crimeans favour being apart of Russia. It's been discussed since, probably even before the collapse of the USSR.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Russians become majority in Crimea during Soviet Union. Crimean Tatars who had always lived there were deported. So please stop saying as it is a cultural and historic part of Russia.
It is an illegitimate referendum and when foreigners can vote it makes it even more absurd.

I understand that if foreigners in London would create illegitimate referendum (with frauds and everything) for London to become part of another country you would recognize this referendum without any doubts?

Russian majority in a place that's been Ukrainian for 50+ years? ahonhon, once again, you have oversimplified history silly rabbit.
Even then, I bet there's a very few number of countries based around their original inhabitants. But we don't bring them up because they are no longer relevant to modern history.
What matters is Crimea now wants to join Russia. They should be free to do so.
Imagine if Kalinigrad joined Poland, or Germany? I bet people wouldn't be kicking up a fuss about that >.>

If the Polish army invaded Kalinigrad and held a sham referendum where the other side was repressed and Poles could come cast vasts I'd be making a fuss about it

[Teemant]

Russians become majority in Crimea during Soviet Union. Crimean Tatars who had always lived there were deported. So please stop saying as it is a cultural and historic part of Russia.
It is an illegitimate referendum and when foreigners can vote it makes it even more absurd.

I understand that if foreigners in London would create illegitimate referendum (with frauds and everything) for London to become part of another country you would recognize this referendum without any doubts?

Russian majority in a place that's been Ukrainian for 50+ years? ahonhon, once again, you have oversimplified history silly rabbit.
Even then, I bet there's a very few number of countries based around their original inhabitants. But we don't bring them up because they are no longer relevant to modern history.
What matters is Crimea now wants to join Russia. They should be free to do so.
Imagine if Kalinigrad joined Poland, or Germany? I bet people wouldn't be kicking up a fuss about that >.>

Ukrainian for 50 years is a exaggeration because during Soviet Union times it was nothing more than a symbolic gesture because Ukraine wasn't independent. I just don't understand how can you handle things like mass deportations like it was nothing especially considering mass deportations of Crimean Tatars happened only 70 years ago. It is still relevant today because it might happen again.

[Jinwoy]

Russian majority in a place that's been Ukrainian for 50+ years? ahonhon, once again, you have oversimplified history silly rabbit.
Even then, I bet there's a very few number of countries based around their original inhabitants. But we don't bring them up because they are no longer relevant to modern history.
What matters is Crimea now wants to join Russia. They should be free to do so.
Imagine if Kalinigrad joined Poland, or Germany? I bet people wouldn't be kicking up a fuss about that >.>

Ukrainian for 50 years is a exaggeration because during Soviet Union times it was nothing more than a symbolic gesture because Ukraine wasn't independent. I just don't understand how can you handle things like mass deportations like it was nothing especially considering mass deportations of Crimean Tatars happened only 70 years ago. It is still relevant today because it might happen again.

the absurdity of this statement caught me off guard.

[Constantinopolis]

Russians become majority in Crimea during Soviet Union.

True, but Russians and Crimean Tatars were more or less equal in number in Crimea (with neither being a majority) in the late 19th century.

According to the 1897 census, Crimean Tatars were 35.55% of the population, Russians were 33.11%, and Ukrainians were 11.84%. It was a mixed Tatar-Russian area.

So please stop saying as it is a cultural and historic part of Russia.

It has more cultural and historic ties to Russia than to any other present-day country.

The Crimean Khanate hasn't existed for some 230 years. So unless you want to bring it back from the dead and have Crimea be an entirely separate independent country (which would be weird, considering the large ethnic Russian majority that lives there today), the most logical choice is for it to be part of Russia.

[Constantinopolis]

If the Polish army invaded Kalinigrad and held a sham referendum where the other side was repressed and Poles could come cast vasts I'd be making a fuss about it

Kaliningrad doesn't have a large ethnic Polish majority and a history of wanting to join Poland.

Crimea has a large ethnic Russian majority, tried to join Russia in the early 1990s, and always had a tense relationship with Kiev since the fall of the USSR.

[Teemant]

If the Polish army invaded Kalinigrad and held a sham referendum where the other side was repressed and Poles could come cast vasts I'd be making a fuss about it

Kaliningrad doesn't have a large ethnic Polish majority and a history of wanting to join Poland.

Crimea has a large ethnic Russian majority, tried to join Russia in the early 1990s, and always had a tense relationship with Kiev since the fall of the USSR.

It is simply the consequence of Soviet Union policies also know as russification. Deporting local population to Sibera (far away) or moving them somewhere else and replacing them with people from Russia. You must take things like this into consideration when talking about Crimea or Kaliningrad or any other post-Soviet foreign country where a large Russian minority lives. They can't just demand for a part of independent country to become part of Russia.

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

Kaliningrad doesn't have a large ethnic Polish majority and a history of wanting to join Poland.

Crimea has a large ethnic Russian majority, tried to join Russia in the early 1990s, and always had a tense relationship with Kiev since the fall of the USSR.

It is simply the consequence of Soviet Union policies also know as russification. Deporting local population to Sibera (far away) or moving them somewhere else and replacing them with people from Russia. You must take things like this into consideration when talking about Crimea or Kaliningrad or any other post-Soviet foreign country where a large Russian minority lives. They can't just demand for a part of independent country to become part of Russia.

I'd be interested to know what your stance on Kosovo is.

[Teemant]

It is simply the consequence of Soviet Union policies also know as russification. Deporting local population to Sibera (far away) or moving them somewhere else and replacing them with people from Russia. You must take things like this into consideration when talking about Crimea or Kaliningrad or any other post-Soviet foreign country where a large Russian minority lives. They can't just demand for a part of independent country to become part of Russia.

I'd be interested to know what your stance on Kosovo is.

I don't know much about Kosovo. And what has Kosovo to do with Ukraine?

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

I'd be interested to know what your stance on Kosovo is.

I don't know much about Kosovo. And what has Kosovo to do with Ukraine?

Kosovo is a region that was originally Serbian-majority but has now been settled by many Albanians. Now Kosovans have established an independent country to the protests of the indigenous Serbs and want to integrate with Albania. There are a lot of parellels with the situation in Crimea, except western media seems to have a very different reaction when it is Russian settlers who want to integrate with their mother country.

[Constantinopolis]

Kaliningrad doesn't have a large ethnic Polish majority and a history of wanting to join Poland.

Crimea has a large ethnic Russian majority, tried to join Russia in the early 1990s, and always had a tense relationship with Kiev since the fall of the USSR.

It is simply the consequence of Soviet Union policies also know as russification. Deporting local population to Sibera (far away) or moving them somewhere else and replacing them with people from Russia. You must take things like this into consideration when talking about Crimea or Kaliningrad or any other post-Soviet foreign country where a large Russian minority lives. They can't just demand for a part of independent country to become part of Russia.

Crimea had been part of Russia since 1783. The ethnic Russians were already more or less equal in number with the Crimean Tatars two decades before the Soviet Union came into existence.

Of course there have been massive population changes all over Europe since 1783, but what do you propose to do about it? Are we also going to give Alsace-Lorraine back to Germany and Transylvania back to Hungary and Lviv back to Poland? And maybe kick the Albanians out of Kosovo because that used to be a majority-Serb area some centuries ago? (hmmm, I seem to recall someone trying to do precisely that... yet somehow the international community didn't think "this used to be our land before another ethnic group moved in" was a good enough argument)

[Teemant]

I don't know much about Kosovo. And what has Kosovo to do with Ukraine?

Kosovo is a region that was originally Serbian-majority but has now been settled by many Albanians. Now Kosovans have established an independent country to the protests of the indigenous Serbs and want to integrate with Albania. There are a lot of parellels with the situation in Crimea, except western media seems to have a very different reaction when it is Russian settlers who want to integrate with their mother country.

And this is this supposed to be justification to annexing Crimea? Something that has nothing to do with Ukraine. I don't see any Ukraine fault here.

[Teemant]

It is simply the consequence of Soviet Union policies also know as russification. Deporting local population to Sibera (far away) or moving them somewhere else and replacing them with people from Russia. You must take things like this into consideration when talking about Crimea or Kaliningrad or any other post-Soviet foreign country where a large Russian minority lives. They can't just demand for a part of independent country to become part of Russia.

Crimea had been part of Russia since 1783. The ethnic Russians were already more or less equal in number with the Crimean Tatars two decades before the Soviet Union came into existence.

Of course there have been massive population changes all over Europe since 1783, but what do you propose to do about it? Are we also going to give Alsace-Lorraine back to Germany and Transylvania back to Hungary and Lviv back to Poland? And maybe kick the Albanians out of Kosovo because that used to be a majority-Serb area some centuries ago? (hmmm, I seem to recall someone trying to do precisely that... yet somehow the international community didn't think "this used to be our land before another ethnic group moved in" was a good enough argument)

I didn't say anything about moving people agains their will. I just said that Russians living in foreign country have no right to demand that part of this country where they are living (as a result of Soviet Union policies) must join with Russia.

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

Kosovo is a region that was originally Serbian-majority but has now been settled by many Albanians. Now Kosovans have established an independent country to the protests of the indigenous Serbs and want to integrate with Albania. There are a lot of parellels with the situation in Crimea, except western media seems to have a very different reaction when it is Russian settlers who want to integrate with their mother country.

And this is this supposed to be justification to annexing Crimea? Something that has nothing to do with Ukraine. I don't see any Ukraine fault here.

Wow do you really not see the connection?

[Teemant]

And this is this supposed to be justification to annexing Crimea? Something that has nothing to do with Ukraine. I don't see any Ukraine fault here.

Wow do you really not see the connection?

Ukraine has never recognized Kosovo. This is pure demagogy here what are you doing here. You are trying to justify annexing part of Ukrainia with something that has nothing at all to do with Ukraine.

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

Wow do you really not see the connection?

Ukraine has never recognized Kosovo. This is pure demagogy here what are you doing here. You are trying to justify annexing part of Ukrainia with something that has nothing at all to do with Ukraine.

No this is pure logic.
-The West supports the efforts of Albanian Kosovars to join Albania proper, because they are in the majority, even though they settled in the region and usurped the Serbian indigenous people.
-The West condemns Crimean Russians trying to join Russia proper, even though they are in the majority, because they settled in the region and usurped the Tatar indigenous people.
If this viewpoint of the West makes sense to you then I am worried.

[Teemant]

Ukraine has never recognized Kosovo. This is pure demagogy here what are you doing here. You are trying to justify annexing part of Ukrainia with something that has nothing at all to do with Ukraine.

No this is pure logic.
-The West supports the efforts of Albanian Kosovars to join Albania proper, because they are in the majority, even though they settled in the region and usurped the Serbian indigenous people.
-The West condemns Crimean Russians trying to join Russia proper, even though they are in the majority, because they settled in the region and usurped the Tatar indigenous people.
If this viewpoint of the West makes sense to you then I am worried.

Pure logic? Please tell me since when is Ukraine the representative of West and Western Media?

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

No this is pure logic.
-The West supports the efforts of Albanian Kosovars to join Albania proper, because they are in the majority, even though they settled in the region and usurped the Serbian indigenous people.
-The West condemns Crimean Russians trying to join Russia proper, even though they are in the majority, because they settled in the region and usurped the Tatar indigenous people.
If this viewpoint of the West makes sense to you then I am worried.

Pure logic? Please tell me since when is Ukraine the representative of West and Western Media?

Sorry but where the hell do I say that?