Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Socialist Czechia]

Kievan Rus is russian as much as Occitania is french, Wessex is english, Elsass-Lothringen is german or Manchuria is chinese. So it's not so much about legit claim as much as it's question which nation you love, hate or ignore. And admit it, almost no one ever loved russians, because they stopped polish expansions to east, made siberia civilized and developed and limited even ambitions of british empire.

[Dalcaria]

Putin did the right thing. I would have done the same if I were in his place.

If you're trying to put out a fire, you don't pour gasoline on the flames.

You should have been my father instead.

That said, yeah, exacerbating a strained situation is hardly what I would call the "right decision". I also find it interesting how many people called the EuroMaiden event a "CIA operation", what with their cardboard signs and construction helmets (as someone else said), when in comparison the Crimean revolt had full on soldiers surrounding military bases and establishing control over the territory. Funny how disorganized EuroMaiden was, and yet the Crimean situation (which had NO Russian involvement at all! ) was extremely well organized. I don't exactly here about much combat in Crimea now, do you?

[12 year olds]

I've always wondered why the French word for Russian (Russe) was so similar to the word for deception (ruse). They are pronounced the same, and French was the diplomatic language of Europe for quite a while.

Any linguists here?

[Jinwoy]

I've always wondered why the French word for Russian (Russe) was so similar to the word for deception (ruse). They are pronounced the same, and French was the diplomatic language of Europe for quite a while.

Any linguists here?

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=russia

[Kibbehstan]

I've always wondered why the French word for Russian (Russe) was so similar to the word for deception (ruse). They are pronounced the same, and French was the diplomatic language of Europe for quite a while.

Any linguists here?

The name Russia is derived from the East Slavic mediaeval state of Rus. Meanwhile, ruse was borrowed by English-speakers from the Old French ruser (''use trickery'') who in turn probably got it from the Latin word rursus (''backward''). I don't think there is any relation between the two terms nor do I believe the sneaky French did it on purpose!

[Costa Fierro]

Like seriously, the fuck is this supposed to prove?

The original point was that US funded coup's don't always go smoothly.

Chile's one did. Allende was removed, Pinochet installed. Huge amounts of torture and gross human rights violations followed accompanied by strong economic growth and surprising domestic stability, especially when you consider it's neighbors were suffering from left-wing insurgencies (Peru), multiple military coups (Bolivia) or losing fruitless wars and suffering harsh economic hardship under a military government run by numpties (Argentina).

It doesn't justify what Pinochet did or make Pinochet a great leader, but Chile benefited immensely from the policies instituted under his regime. I'd say it went smoothly and be (loosely) called a success.

[Costa Fierro]

I've always wondered why the French word for Russian (Russe) was so similar to the word for deception (ruse). They are pronounced the same, and French was the diplomatic language of Europe for quite a while.

Any linguists here?

They've already explained the origination of the name for the Russian Federation but I should point out that "ruse" and "Russe" are not the same in terms of pronunciation. "Russe" in French has a soft "s" sound like "snake". "Ruse" has a hard "s" sound like any words with the letter "z".

[Dalcaria]

Wait, has that seriously been confirmed? Because if they are, how many of us were calling that like last year!

No, it hasn't been "confirmed", because it's not true, and it was precisely because some of you were "calling that last year" (i.e. stereotypically assuming that only Russians could be pro-Russian) that I asked a moderator to confirm the opposite at one point:

Const, just because your name was mentioned doesn't mean I was specifically indicating you were in fact from Russia. More to the point, I was genuinely asking. I've already heard a few times in the thread that you're not from Russia. Congratulations. Now I'd like to now about the other folks actually mentioned, especially given that Jinwoy has (so far) indicated himself as pro-Russian, so I see few reasons for him to be making it up. I'm not saying he's telling the truth, I'm saying I'm curious to know what the truth is.

Also, we weren't stereotyping you in the slightest, we found it very difficult to believe that anyone who paid attention to unbiased media sources could remotely support Putin. To say only Russians can be pro-Russian would be like saying Jews can't be anti-Semitic (this may come as some surprised, but I've heard there have actually been some).

So I'd like to state, for your own reference, I wasn't concerned about whether you are Russian or not. Not in the slightest. I'm not even really concerned if the others are or aren't either, it doesn't change the landscape of the debate all the much. So if no one wishes to confirm whether they are Russian or not, I don't really care. It's none of my business to spy on their ethnicity, and the most it will do for the debate is show a few pro-Russian supporters are or aren't Russian, which (as I said) does nothing much to change the debate.

[West Aurelia]

Former pro-Yanukovych deputy shot dead. This seems very similar to the killing of Nemtsov - a politician who opposes the current government is shot dead following other mysterious deaths of opposition figures - although I doubt anyone will be calling this an assassination.

[Costa Fierro]

Former pro-Yanukovych deputy shot dead. This seems very similar to the killing of Nemtsov - a politician who opposes the current government is shot dead following other mysterious deaths of opposition figures - although I doubt anyone will be calling this an assassination.

It's an assassination.

[United Marxist Nations]

In that case, it should be surprising when, in polls, Ukrainians are more likely to look back on the Soviet Union positively:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/12/05/con ... iet-union/
http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/forme ... eakup.aspx

Also, dismissing an entire population's political view as "nostalgic and idiotic" is so stupid in and of itself that I don't even have words for it. I mean, really, get off your fucking high horse. You'd be nostalgic for it too if your country collapsed and everything went to shit.

I think results would be entirely different when asked this year. Confidence in democracy is definitely risen because it was ordinary people who were behind Maidan.

In the Eastern part of the Ukraine, right after the Maidan, most did not trust the new government:

[Socialist Czechia]

So, according to Putin, russians and ukrainians are one same nation. Finally. Which is totally true. Same as bavarians and berliners or french and occitans or sicilians and savoians are same peoples.

[United Marxist Nations]

So, according to Putin, russians and ukrainians are one same nation. Finally. Which is totally true. Same as bavarians and berliners or french and occitans or sicilians and savoians are same peoples.

French and Occitans aren't the same people. So, I guess you got at least one of the comparisons right.

[Landenburg]

So, according to Putin, russians and ukrainians are one same nation. Finally. Which is totally true. Same as bavarians and berliners or french and occitans or sicilians and savoians are same peoples.

That comparison is not quite correct.

Bavarians and Berliners both speak German.

Ukrainians speak Ukrainian and Russians speak Russian.

[Slobozhanshchyna]

So, according to Putin, russians and ukrainians are one same nation. Finally. Which is totally true. Same as bavarians and berliners or french and occitans or sicilians and savoians are same peoples.

So from your point of view Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian?

Also, since we're using this type of rhetoric here, Bosnians are Serbians.

[Socialist Czechia]

So, according to Putin, russians and ukrainians are one same nation. Finally. Which is totally true. Same as bavarians and berliners or french and occitans or sicilians and savoians are same peoples.

That comparison is not quite correct.

Bavarians and Berliners both speak German.

Ukrainians speak Ukrainian and Russians speak Russian.

difference is tiny, like between saxon german and austrian german or like between occitan french and norman french. Cultural difference as a whole is even less different from other examples - compare culture of savoyards and sicilians - yet there are all italians.

[Socialist Czechia]

So, according to Putin, russians and ukrainians are one same nation. Finally. Which is totally true. Same as bavarians and berliners or french and occitans or sicilians and savoians are same peoples.

So from your point of view Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian?

Also, since we're using this type of rhetoric here, Bosnians are Serbians.

yup. Same as croatians, slovenians and montenegrians.

[United Marxist Nations]

That comparison is not quite correct.

Bavarians and Berliners both speak German.

Ukrainians speak Ukrainian and Russians speak Russian.

difference is tiny, like between saxon german and austrian german or like between occitan french and norman french. Cultural difference as a whole is even less different from other examples - compare culture of savoyards and sicilians - yet there are all italians.

Occitan isn't a French language, it is a completely different language. Ukrainian and Russian only have about 60% in common. Even traditional Russian imperialism refers to it as different (hence why the Tsar was "of all the Russias".

[United Marxist Nations]

So from your point of view Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian?

Also, since we're using this type of rhetoric here, Bosnians are Serbians.

yup. Same as croatians, slovenians and montenegrians.

They are not the same peoples either. A nation is a historically constituted people living in the same area and sharing a common language and culture (if using Marxist definition, with economic cohesiveness as well).

[Imperial City-States]

For those nostalgic about the Soviet Union

And for those who are realistic about the Soviet Union.





Note: I just like Reagan's speech..

[Herargon]

For those nostalgic about the Soviet Union

And for those who are realistic about the Soviet Union.





Note: I just like Reagan's speech..

Excuse me, but this is not a Soviet Union discussion thread. This is about the conflict between Russia and Ukraine and those involved.

[Imperial City-States]

For those nostalgic about the Soviet Union

And for those who are realistic about the Soviet Union.





Note: I just like Reagan's speech..

Excuse me, but this is not a Soviet Union discussion thread. This is about the conflict between Russia and Ukraine and those involved.

Which it's a pretty well known fact that Putin's actions are simply re-enacting the death throes of the Soviet Union.

Considering that it pretty much boils down to East vs West again

[Bratislavskaya]

Chile's one did. Allende was removed, Pinochet installed. Huge amounts of torture and gross human rights violations followed accompanied by strong economic growth and surprising domestic stability, especially when you consider it's neighbors were suffering from left-wing insurgencies (Peru), multiple military coups (Bolivia) or losing fruitless wars and suffering harsh economic hardship under a military government run by numpties (Argentina).

It doesn't justify what Pinochet did or make Pinochet a great leader, but Chile benefited immensely from the policies instituted under his regime. I'd say it went smoothly and be (loosely) called a success.

Chile was benefiting from Allende before the fall in copper prices. Even then real wages were higher under Allende and unemployment was significantly lower (4.5 times lower).

we found it very difficult to believe that anyone who paid attention to unbiased Pro-Western media sources could remotely support Putin.

Corrected.

For those nostalgic about the Soviet Union

And for those who are realistic about the Soviet Union.



Note: I just like Reagan's speech..

Incorrect, and as pointed out nothing to do with the current situation in Ukraine.

Former pro-Yanukovych deputy shot dead. This seems very similar to the killing of Nemtsov - a politician who opposes the current government is shot dead following other mysterious deaths of opposition figures - although I doubt anyone will be calling this an assassination.

I doubt it will be mentioned on the news here, unlike Nemtsov's death. And a short video on the matter (of particular interest are 0:43 to 1:37).

[Novus America]

So, according to Putin, russians and ukrainians are one same nation. Finally. Which is totally true. Same as bavarians and berliners or french and occitans or sicilians and savoians are same peoples.

So the Americans and British are the same nation? Kievan Rus is as Russian as Wessex is American. Ie not at all. The Russian Federation was founded in 1991. The U.S. In 1776. Kiev is as Russian as London is American.

[Blakk Metal]

The original point was that US funded coup's don't always go smoothly.

Chile's one did. Allende was removed, Pinochet installed. Huge amounts of torture and gross human rights violations followed accompanied by strong economic growth and surprising domestic stability, especially when you consider it's neighbors were suffering from left-wing insurgencies (Peru), multiple military coups (Bolivia) or losing fruitless wars and suffering harsh economic hardship under a military government run by numpties (Argentina).

It doesn't justify what Pinochet did or make Pinochet a great leader, but Chile benefited immensely from the policies instituted under his regime. I'd say it went smoothly and be (loosely) called a success.

Chile's coup wasn't backed by the US.