Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

Why does it matter if you live there or not? That's what research is for- to find out about things you're not familiar with. You should try it sometime.

No amount of reading can ever equate to experience. You can read about sex or drug usage as much as you want but if you never experience the act you have no idea what it's really like.

If you didn't endure the system you have no idea what it was really like. Research may give you an idea but it is by no means accurate means of the system's actual effects.

People who support a 'Communist' system and yet have never lived under or experienced it. How can you defend something that you have no real clue about?

How can you oppose it? Have you lived in a communist society? If you have, then do you think your experience was the same as everyone else's? If you haven't, your being a tad hypocritical.

[Constantinopolis]

Yes, and the Estonians represent a whopping 0.31% of the population of the former USSR.

To point out that the collapse of the USSR was good for Estonia is like saying that it was good for one neighborhood in Moscow. That is the scale we're talking about.

Of course a few people benefited from the fall of the USSR. Estonians were among those few. Some Moscow residents were also among those few, since Moscow has become one of the wealthiest cities in Europe (and also one of the most unequal). But for the vast majority of former Soviet citizens, it's a very different story.

I couldn't care less how Russians in Russia live. Just leave Estonia alone.

Has anyone in this thread ever suggested not leaving Estonia alone?

Are you stupid? Russia isn't even normal capitalistic country. Huge corruption, laws doesn't work, unfair competition etc. No wonder it failed.

Uh... that actually describes the majority of capitalist countries in the world, you know.

The social democratic countries in Northern and Western Europe are not "normal" capitalist countries. They are highly unusual ones. They are the exception. If you want to see "normal" capitalism, look at Latin America, or South Africa, or India, or South-East Asia... or Russia.

I find funny how most of the Soviet Union/Russian fanboys live nowhere near Russia.

Const, Shof and Lytt are all from Russia.

False. I don't even speak Russian.

I'm from the former Warsaw Pact ("Eastern Europe", if you will), not from the former USSR.

Const, Shof and Lytt are all from Russia. Shof is the only one out of Russia, in California.

Wait, has that seriously been confirmed? Because if they are, how many of us were calling that like last year!

No, it hasn't been "confirmed", because it's not true, and it was precisely because some of you were "calling that last year" (i.e. stereotypically assuming that only Russians could be pro-Russian) that I asked a moderator to confirm the opposite at one point:

I am posting this at Constantinopolis' specific request.

I can confirm that Constantinopolis does not access (and has not accessed) this site from either Ukraine or Russia; to the best of my knowledge he has never logged in from the former USSR.

However, I do love how the anti-Russian side has figured out a way to throw ad hominems at both Russian and non-Russian supporters of Putin's foreign policy.

"If you're Russian and support Putin's foreign policy, we can ignore you because you're biased."
"If you're non-Russian and support Putin's foreign policy, we can ignore you because you clearly have no idea what Russia is really like."

Perhaps those making claims of this nature should consider the possibility that someone could be well-informed of the situation, and have no particular pro-Russian bias, and still support Putin's foreign policy as the best (or least bad) course of action. I myself have no love for Russia's right-wing economic system, high inequality, or oligarchical elite. But I support Putin's foreign policy because (a) the Kiev government is far worse, and (b) the European Union needs to be weakened, and ultimately dismantled. You know what they say about the enemy of my enemy...

[Constantinopolis]

So just a generic question. How many of those who are supposed 'Communist' actually lived in a 'Communist' Country? By that i mean how many of you actually lived in the old Soviet Union or other similar areas?

*raises hand*

Not in the USSR itself, but you can put me down in the "similar areas" category.

[United Marxist Nations]

Why does it matter if you live there or not? That's what research is for- to find out about things you're not familiar with. You should try it sometime.

No amount of reading can ever equate to experience. You can read about sex or drug usage as much as you want but if you never experience the act you have no idea what it's really like.

If you didn't endure the system you have no idea what it was really like. Research may give you an idea but it is by no means accurate means of the system's actual effects.

People who support a 'Communist' system and yet have never lived under or experienced it. How can you defend something that you have no real clue about?

Is that why support for capitalism in the former USSR has declined since its collapse?

[Korva]

A percentage of any population is nostalgic and idiotic.

It is no surprise that the older segment of the population in the former Soviet bloc would be nostalgic for a simpler time, especially once they were faced with competing in a market place they were not equipped to deal with.

It also shouldn't be surprising that Russians would wax nostalgic about their hegemony over their neighbors, even more so as their history is thoroughly whitewashed.

In other news, brave rebel soldiers forcing POWs to stage mock executions.

[Constantinopolis]

A percentage of any population is nostalgic and idiotic.

It is no surprise that the older segment of the population in the former Soviet bloc would be nostalgic for a simpler time, especially once they were faced with competing in a market place they were not equipped to deal with.

So... it's idiotic to be nostalgic for a time when your life was better and easier?

Smart people want their lives to be harder?

Okay then...

[Costa Fierro]

When the US orchestrates coups, they tend to go a lot smoother than EuroMaidan did.

Because we all know how smooth the Chilean coup, Afghan War (1980s), Bay of Pigs Invasion, and Syrian Civil War went.

Presumably Chile descended into civil war instead of being the only Latin American country to see economic growth during the 1980's? Must have missed that somewhere.

[Korva]

A percentage of any population is nostalgic and idiotic.

It is no surprise that the older segment of the population in the former Soviet bloc would be nostalgic for a simpler time, especially once they were faced with competing in a market place they were not equipped to deal with.

So... it's idiotic to be nostalgic for a time when your life was better and easier?

Smart people want their lives to be harder?

Okay then...

vegetables have very easy lives

[Geilinor]

I myself have no love for Russia's right-wing economic system, high inequality, or oligarchical elite. But I support Putin's foreign policy because (a) the Kiev government is far worse, and (b) the European Union needs to be weakened, and ultimately dismantled. You know what they say about the enemy of my enemy...

You'll need to elaborate on Ukraine being far worse than high inequality and oligarchy. And that "enemy of my enemy" shtick, it's rarely worked successfully.

[Estruia]

I myself have no love for Russia's right-wing economic system, high inequality, or oligarchical elite. But I support Putin's foreign policy because (a) the Kiev government is far worse, and (b) the European Union needs to be weakened, and ultimately dismantled. You know what they say about the enemy of my enemy...

You'll need to elaborate on Ukraine being far worse than high inequality and oligarchy. And that "enemy of my enemy" shtick, it's rarely worked successfully.

Didn't Stepan Bandera use "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" shtick when he allied himself with one of the world's most heinous men to ever live?

[Constantinopolis]

I myself have no love for Russia's right-wing economic system, high inequality, or oligarchical elite. But I support Putin's foreign policy because (a) the Kiev government is far worse, and (b) the European Union needs to be weakened, and ultimately dismantled. You know what they say about the enemy of my enemy...

You'll need to elaborate on Ukraine being far worse than high inequality and oligarchy.

Well, Ukraine also has high inequality and oligarchy, plus a government committed to extreme austerity measures and privatizations, plus persecution of communists and left-wingers, plus a pro-NATO foreign policy, plus powerful far-right paramilitary groups, and an ultra-nationalist political culture that makes Putin look like John Lennon by comparison.

In brief, Ukraine has all the same bad things that Russia has, and a ton of others on top. Therefore, it's far worse.

And that "enemy of my enemy" shtick, it's rarely worked successfully.

Rarely? Almost every international alliance in the world is based on it.

Why do you think the US is allied with Saudi Arabia? Shared values?

You'll need to elaborate on Ukraine being far worse than high inequality and oligarchy. And that "enemy of my enemy" shtick, it's rarely worked successfully.

Didn't Stepan Bandera use "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" shtick when he allied himself with one of the world's most heinous men to ever live?

Of course he did, because everyone who has any understanding of geopolitics at all uses that shtick.

Do I need to list off all the repressive dictatorships supported by the US or various European powers? Everyone does it. Because it's a good strategy.

Not perfect, of course - it always carries some risks - but it's certainly a lot better than "I'm only going to seek allies who share my values, and if there are no powerful entities that share my values, well, sucks to be me, I guess".

[Estruia]

You'll need to elaborate on Ukraine being far worse than high inequality and oligarchy.

Well, Ukraine also has high inequality and oligarchy, plus a government committed to extreme austerity measures and privatizations, plus persecution of communists and left-wingers, plus a pro-NATO foreign policy, plus powerful far-right paramilitary groups, and an ultra-nationalist political culture that makes Putin look like John Lennon by comparison.

In brief, Ukraine has all the same bad things that Russia has, and a ton of others on top. Therefore, it's far worse.

And that "enemy of my enemy" shtick, it's rarely worked successfully.

Rarely? Almost every international alliance in the world is based on it.

Why do you think the US is allied with Saudi Arabia? Shared values?

Didn't Stepan Bandera use "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" shtick when he allied himself with one of the world's most heinous men to ever live?

Of course he did, because everyone who has any understanding of geopolitics at all uses that shtick.

Do I need to list off all the repressive dictatorships supported by the US or various European powers? Everyone does it. Because it's a good strategy.

Not perfect, of course - it always carries some risks - but it's certainly a lot better than "I'm only going to seek allies who share my values, and if there are no powerful entities that share my values, well, sucks to be me, I guess".

At least you don't claim to be better than your Western adversaries. I guess I can't fault you for that. I'm used to the "Holier-than-thou" Pro-Soviet posters.

[Geilinor]

You'll need to elaborate on Ukraine being far worse than high inequality and oligarchy.

Well, Ukraine also has high inequality and oligarchy, plus a government committed to extreme austerity measures and privatizations, plus persecution of communists and left-wingers, plus a pro-NATO foreign policy, plus powerful far-right paramilitary groups, and an ultra-nationalist political culture that makes Putin look like John Lennon by comparison.

Nationalism is on the rise in Ukraine because the country faces a serious threat to its independence and sovereignty.

[United Marxist Nations]

A percentage of any population is nostalgic and idiotic.

It is no surprise that the older segment of the population in the former Soviet bloc would be nostalgic for a simpler time, especially once they were faced with competing in a market place they were not equipped to deal with.

It also shouldn't be surprising that Russians would wax nostalgic about their hegemony over their neighbors, even more so as their history is thoroughly whitewashed.

In that case, it should be surprising when, in polls, Ukrainians are more likely to look back on the Soviet Union positively:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/12/05/con ... iet-union/
http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/forme ... eakup.aspx

Also, dismissing an entire population's political view as "nostalgic and idiotic" is so stupid in and of itself that I don't even have words for it. I mean, really, get off your fucking high horse. You'd be nostalgic for it too if your country collapsed and everything went to shit.

[Geilinor]

A percentage of any population is nostalgic and idiotic.

It is no surprise that the older segment of the population in the former Soviet bloc would be nostalgic for a simpler time, especially once they were faced with competing in a market place they were not equipped to deal with.

It also shouldn't be surprising that Russians would wax nostalgic about their hegemony over their neighbors, even more so as their history is thoroughly whitewashed.

In that case, it should be surprising when, in polls, Ukrainians are more likely to look back on the Soviet Union positively:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/12/05/con ... iet-union/
http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/forme ... eakup.aspx

Also, dismissing an entire population's political view as "nostalgic and idiotic" is so stupid in and of itself that I don't even have words for it. I mean, really, get off your fucking high horse. You'd be nostalgic for it too if your country collapsed and everything went to shit.

Why do we have to start this every so often? Russia isn't going to bring the USSR back and it doesn't want to. There's no way it can.

[United Marxist Nations]

In that case, it should be surprising when, in polls, Ukrainians are more likely to look back on the Soviet Union positively:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/12/05/con ... iet-union/
http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/forme ... eakup.aspx

Also, dismissing an entire population's political view as "nostalgic and idiotic" is so stupid in and of itself that I don't even have words for it. I mean, really, get off your fucking high horse. You'd be nostalgic for it too if your country collapsed and everything went to shit.

Why do we have to start this every so often? Russia isn't going to bring the USSR back and it doesn't want to. There's no way it can.

The Soviet Union is inevitably going to come up in any discussion about the recent history of the Ukraine. A discussion of present events is pretty useless without historical context. Especially in the context of many in Eastern Ukraine being nostalgic for the Soviet Union as being a contributing factor to the conflict.

Inevitably, when that discussion starts, people shit on the Soviet Union. Some with good reason and very well-made criticism, others with garbage.

[Constantinopolis]

Well, Ukraine also has high inequality and oligarchy, plus a government committed to extreme austerity measures and privatizations, plus persecution of communists and left-wingers, plus a pro-NATO foreign policy, plus powerful far-right paramilitary groups, and an ultra-nationalist political culture that makes Putin look like John Lennon by comparison.

In brief, Ukraine has all the same bad things that Russia has, and a ton of others on top. Therefore, it's far worse.


Rarely? Almost every international alliance in the world is based on it.

Why do you think the US is allied with Saudi Arabia? Shared values?


Of course he did, because everyone who has any understanding of geopolitics at all uses that shtick.

Do I need to list off all the repressive dictatorships supported by the US or various European powers? Everyone does it. Because it's a good strategy.

Not perfect, of course - it always carries some risks - but it's certainly a lot better than "I'm only going to seek allies who share my values, and if there are no powerful entities that share my values, well, sucks to be me, I guess".

At least you don't claim to be better than your Western adversaries. I guess I can't fault you for that. I'm used to the "Holier-than-thou" Pro-Soviet posters.

That is correct, I don't claim to be "better" than anyone, in the sense of advocating "better" or more "noble" methods. I claim to advocate better goals, of course - a better society - but as far as the means of getting there are concerned, I strongly believe that we should use the same methods as our adversaries.

In the game of geopolitics, there are two kinds of players: those who are willing to do whatever the enemy is willing to do, and those who lose.

We can hate this fact all we want, but it's still true. And I don't want my side to lose. People who genuinely fight for a better world should learn from their enemies. When they lose, we should ask, "why did they lose?" and make sure we don't make the same mistakes. When they win, we should ask, "how did they win?" and use a similar strategy next time.

Well, Ukraine also has high inequality and oligarchy, plus a government committed to extreme austerity measures and privatizations, plus persecution of communists and left-wingers, plus a pro-NATO foreign policy, plus powerful far-right paramilitary groups, and an ultra-nationalist political culture that makes Putin look like John Lennon by comparison.

Nationalism is on the rise in Ukraine because the country faces a serious threat to its independence and sovereignty.

Nationalism was on the rise in Ukraine before Russia did anything. There were very strong nationalist elements within Euromaidan. One of the three political parties that supported the movement was an ultra-nationalist one, and of course Right Sector rose to prominence by recruiting Euromaidan activists and having a public image as the "hardcore" wing of the Euromaidan movement. Euromaidan activists were already tearing down Lenin statues in early December 2013.

Of course Russia's later annexation of Crimea (and support for the Novorossiyan rebels) fanned the flames of Ukrainian nationalism even more, but at that point there was nothing left to lose. The dice had already been cast. Ukraine was already heading in a right-wing and nationalist direction, and - more importantly from the Russian point of view - a pro-Western direction. The Kiev government was already an enemy of Russia.

And when you have a new enemy, it is better to strike hard against them before they have a chance to consolidate power, rather than wait around in the hope that they'll become friendly for no reason.

Putin did the right thing. I would have done the same if I were in his place.

[Imperial City-States]

Of course Russia's later annexation of Crimea (and support for the Novorossiyan rebels) fanned the flames of Ukrainian nationalism even more, but at that point there was nothing left to lose. The dice had already been cast. Ukraine was already heading in a right-wing and nationalist direction, and - more importantly from the Russian point of view - a pro-Western direction. The Kiev government was already an enemy of Russia.

And when you have a new enemy, it is better to strike hard against them before they have a chance to consolidate power, rather than wait around in the hope that they'll become friendly for no reason.

Putin did the right thing. I would have done the same if I were in his place.

Well, the key thing is he made an even greater enemy of the West. He intentionally or unintentionally fanned the ambers that remained following the Cold War. Putin is actually rather lucky that no one called him on his bluff in Ukraine. But things may actually be heading in that direction if fighting continues. The US House approved a bill to send 'lethal' Aid to Ukraine and since the Ukrainian Army can't fight for shit odds are the Paramilitaries will likely get the Weapons. And we all know how the rough road of 'aid' leads.

[Teemant]

No amount of reading can ever equate to experience. You can read about sex or drug usage as much as you want but if you never experience the act you have no idea what it's really like.

If you didn't endure the system you have no idea what it was really like. Research may give you an idea but it is by no means accurate means of the system's actual effects.

People who support a 'Communist' system and yet have never lived under or experienced it. How can you defend something that you have no real clue about?

Is that why support for capitalism in the former USSR has declined since its collapse?

It has declined in some former USSR countries. Maybe people though that it was going to magically solve all their problems and are disappointed now. And most of the countries where people are disappointed have oligarchs, huge corruption, laws doesn't work - and people blame it on capitalism. In Baltics we don't have these problems I mentioned and everything is good and keeps getting better.

[Teemant]

A percentage of any population is nostalgic and idiotic.

It is no surprise that the older segment of the population in the former Soviet bloc would be nostalgic for a simpler time, especially once they were faced with competing in a market place they were not equipped to deal with.

It also shouldn't be surprising that Russians would wax nostalgic about their hegemony over their neighbors, even more so as their history is thoroughly whitewashed.

In that case, it should be surprising when, in polls, Ukrainians are more likely to look back on the Soviet Union positively:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/12/05/con ... iet-union/
http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/forme ... eakup.aspx

Also, dismissing an entire population's political view as "nostalgic and idiotic" is so stupid in and of itself that I don't even have words for it. I mean, really, get off your fucking high horse. You'd be nostalgic for it too if your country collapsed and everything went to shit.

I think results would be entirely different when asked this year. Confidence in democracy is definitely risen because it was ordinary people who were behind Maidan.

[Bratislavskaya]

Because we all know how smooth the Chilean coup, Afghan War (1980s), Bay of Pigs Invasion, and Syrian Civil War went.

Presumably Chile descended into civil war instead of being the only Latin American country to see economic growth during the 1980's? Must have missed that somewhere.

What was that? The CIA was well known to have funded a coup to overthrow a democratically elected socialist government and replace it with a dictatorship?

I think results would be entirely different when asked this year. Confidence in democracy is definitely risen because it was ordinary people who were behind Maidan.

I really don't see how having to overthrow the democratic process would increase support for it, even when a new government is in power.

[Slobozhanshchyna]

So just a generic question. How many of those who are supposed 'Communist' actually lived in a 'Communist' Country? By that i mean how many of you actually lived in the old Soviet Union or other similar areas?

Personally seems like alot of people are discussing the pro's of the Soviet Government without actually having experience it themselves.


Similar example i could throw out would be people discussing the Pro's of the American VA vs having to actually sit through the VA's red tape.

Do post-Soviet countries count? It's been pretty lovely here before shit hit the fan. Don't like the corruption though.

[Costa Fierro]

What was that? The CIA was well known to have funded a coup to overthrow a democratically elected socialist government and replace it with a dictatorship?

Like seriously, the fuck is this supposed to prove?

[Costa Fierro]

Putin did the right thing. I would have done the same if I were in his place.

If you're trying to put out a fire, you don't pour gasoline on the flames.

[Bratislavskaya]

What was that? The CIA was well known to have funded a coup to overthrow a democratically elected socialist government and replace it with a dictatorship?

Like seriously, the fuck is this supposed to prove?

The original point was that US funded coup's don't always go smoothly.