Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Jinwoy]

Your turn:
http://www.dw.de/germany-warns-against- ... a-18169784
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 3960826054
http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-minister ... 1426504541
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/world ... .html?_r=0

1) Article says that Merkel wants thougher sanctions. Who is the most important person in Germany? Merkel of course.
2) Germany businesses isn't Germany's goverment. And this article is from May 1 2014 - Things were so different back then. Germany has pushed for harsher sanctions recently.
3) Ministers have different opinions. But they still continued with sanctions.
4) From Jan 5. 2015. Meanwhile 1,5 months later http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/12/ukraine-crisis-france-idUSP6N0TG01Y20150212 Hollande says Russia risks more sanctions.

1 & 2) Merkel isn't most important person in the country, but is a key figure in the group that is pro-sanctions. Do not underestimate the people beneath, because eventually they'll cave in to the demands for open markets with Russia, or suffer the consequences as they choke their own capital.
3) I didn't say all EU ministers wanted to end sanctions, just an alarming number of them. Yay for you.
4) http://vestnikkavkaza.net/news/politics/69463.html

[Jinwoy]

Your turn:
http://www.dw.de/germany-warns-against- ... a-18169784
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 3960826054
http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-minister ... 1426504541
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/world ... .html?_r=0

Let's bare in mind, more sanctions in Russia could cause long lasting damage economically speaking, including to the oil industry. Say what you will about Europe, Putin is also trying to butt heads with them by continuing to support this war it's easy to assume he started. No matter how you look at it, it's just two men standing, head against head, wrestling to put a gun against the side of the other guy's head. Doesn't matter who pulls the trigger, the bullet will go through both heads. Russia faces the potential of economic damage, Europe faces the potential of hard to get oil, or considerably higher prices at the very least (importing from the Middle East would drive up the prices in Europe, and possibly globally). So I think it's important for folks on both sides to this debate how serious these sanctions are, whether you support them or not.

Well duh. I'm not against the sanctions because they are against Russia, I'm against them because they are useless and enforced by the only person who doesn't stand much to lose when compared to his enemy - guess who!

[Teemant]

1) Article says that Merkel wants thougher sanctions. Who is the most important person in Germany? Merkel of course.
2) Germany businesses isn't Germany's goverment. And this article is from May 1 2014 - Things were so different back then. Germany has pushed for harsher sanctions recently.
3) Ministers have different opinions. But they still continued with sanctions.
4) From Jan 5. 2015. Meanwhile 1,5 months later http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/12/ukraine-crisis-france-idUSP6N0TG01Y20150212 Hollande says Russia risks more sanctions.

1 & 2) Merkel isn't most important person in the country, but is a key figure in the group that is pro-sanctions. Do not underestimate the people beneath, because eventually they'll cave in to the demands for open markets with Russia, or suffer the consequences as they choke their own capital.
3) I didn't say all EU ministers wanted to end sanctions, just an alarming number of them. Yay for you.
4) http://vestnikkavkaza.net/news/politics/69463.html

If Merkel wants to continue sanctions then Germany will continue sanctions. It's that simple. Merkel has very strong support.

Your new 4th article is only been reported by Russian media. No one else. France goverment hasn't said anything about ending sanctions. Any goverment positions (after February)?

[Jinwoy]

1 & 2) Merkel isn't most important person in the country, but is a key figure in the group that is pro-sanctions. Do not underestimate the people beneath, because eventually they'll cave in to the demands for open markets with Russia, or suffer the consequences as they choke their own capital.
3) I didn't say all EU ministers wanted to end sanctions, just an alarming number of them. Yay for you.
4) http://vestnikkavkaza.net/news/politics/69463.html

If Merkel wants to continue sanctions then Germany will continue sanctions. It's that simple. Merkel has very strong support.

Your new 4th article is only been reported by Russian media. No one else. France goverment hasn't said anything about ending sanctions. Any goverment positions (after February)?

Its on his twitter feed and a large number of French websites.
EDIT: There is a LARGE amount of Anti-American sentiment on his twitter feed.

[Dalcaria]

Let's bare in mind, more sanctions in Russia could cause long lasting damage economically speaking, including to the oil industry. Say what you will about Europe, Putin is also trying to butt heads with them by continuing to support this war it's easy to assume he started. No matter how you look at it, it's just two men standing, head against head, wrestling to put a gun against the side of the other guy's head. Doesn't matter who pulls the trigger, the bullet will go through both heads. Russia faces the potential of economic damage, Europe faces the potential of hard to get oil, or considerably higher prices at the very least (importing from the Middle East would drive up the prices in Europe, and possibly globally). So I think it's important for folks on both sides to this debate how serious these sanctions are, whether you support them or not.

Well duh. I'm not against the sanctions because they are against Russia, I'm against them because they are useless and enforced by the only person who doesn't stand much to lose when compared to his enemy - guess who!

If it drives up oil prices, millions of people around the world stand to lose something. The only ones who gain are a few oil companies, none of whom I recall giving much campaign money to Obama....

That said, disagree with the sanctions if you like, I just don't understand why in the face of that, you wouldn't ask yourself why Putin couldn't try and meet at the table with everyone and settle this more diplomatically. Because I don't know about you, but I really see no reason to hold onto Crimea or the East. They didn't seem to be revolting until after Russian soldiers started surrounding bases in Crimea and establishing a military grip in the region. Unless this was a common event we all just missed since Ukraine gained it's independence.

And if you have an issue with the standards of living in that area of Ukraine, I fail to see why they need to be independent to change this. I rather doubt west Ukraine is much better in all honesty. Which also brings up the point of the EU. If Russia was doing fine trading with the EU before this fiasco started, I fail to see why they needed Ukraine to join this economic pact with them then. Discuss better trade options with the EU, don't start a war over it!

[Dalcaria]

because eventually they'll cave in to the demands for open markets with Russia, or suffer the consequences as they choke their own capital.

You say this as if they're suffering the most right now, Europe I mean. So far, I've not been hearing a whole lot about how this is effecting Europe financially, and I'm partial to saying it isn't affecting them as much as you think it is. One thing I will say is that gas prices in Canada at least actually went DOWN. Of course, that was due to over production, but prices have been going up again, but not high enough that it would indicate the Russia incident is causing a sort of oil crisis. It could potentially happen, but at the moment, the only nation being hurt is Russia. Plus, I almost forgot, a lot of the financial damage done to Russian businesses could be remedied later.... By foreign investment. I don't think that prospect should look totally appealing to Putin, unless it's almost all coming from China.

[Jinwoy]

because eventually they'll cave in to the demands for open markets with Russia, or suffer the consequences as they choke their own capital.

You say this as if they're suffering the most right now, Europe I mean. So far, I've not been hearing a whole lot about how this is effecting Europe financially, and I'm partial to saying it isn't affecting them as much as you think it is. One thing I will say is that gas prices in Canada at least actually went DOWN. Of course, that was due to over production, but prices have been going up again, but not high enough that it would indicate the Russia incident is causing a sort of oil crisis. It could potentially happen, but at the moment, the only nation being hurt is Russia. Plus, I almost forgot, a lot of the financial damage done to Russian businesses could be remedied later.... By foreign investment. I don't think that prospect should look totally appealing to Putin, unless it's almost all coming from China.

It wasn't oil, it was gas. Ukraine has put itself in a really awkward situation, where it basically demonises Russia but still expects gas from them for heating... yeah no. The first rule of Diplomatics 101 is not to piss off the guy you want to trade with.

[Dalcaria]

You say this as if they're suffering the most right now, Europe I mean. So far, I've not been hearing a whole lot about how this is effecting Europe financially, and I'm partial to saying it isn't affecting them as much as you think it is. One thing I will say is that gas prices in Canada at least actually went DOWN. Of course, that was due to over production, but prices have been going up again, but not high enough that it would indicate the Russia incident is causing a sort of oil crisis. It could potentially happen, but at the moment, the only nation being hurt is Russia. Plus, I almost forgot, a lot of the financial damage done to Russian businesses could be remedied later.... By foreign investment. I don't think that prospect should look totally appealing to Putin, unless it's almost all coming from China.

It wasn't oil, it was gas. Ukraine has put itself in a really awkward situation, where it basically demonises Russia but still expects gas from them for heating... yeah no. The first rule of Diplomatics 101 is not to piss off the guy you want to trade with.

Wow, Russia sounds a lot like one of my ex-landlords. That guy was a serious jerk. So it's not good for Ukraine to "demonize" Russia, but it's a-okay to invade and annex their sovereign land, expect them to roll over and accept the new overlords, and then dangle gas over their head basically as a form of black mail? Oh Putin and the Duma are just the definition of class. But if you want to talk about awkward situations, it must be awkward to be Russia and have all of, what, three countries to trade gas with? I'm sure it's just been a booming financial venture for them to get into a hissy fit that Ukraine won't let them take Ukraine's land.

If Russia's going to act like this, could they at least have the courtesy of adopting a red, white, and black symbol flag as their national flag?

[Occupied Deutschland]

Nothing would have happened if Russia wouldn't have annexed Crimea.

Nothing would have happened if the US didn't orchestrate a coup in Ukraine.

When the US orchestrates coups, they tend to go a lot smoother than EuroMaidan did.

Can the conspiracy theories for a change. They're unflattering.

[Dalcaria]

Nothing would have happened if the US didn't orchestrate a coup in Ukraine.

When the US orchestrates coups, they tend to go a lot smoother than EuroMaidan did.

Can the conspiracy theories for a change. They're unflattering.

Pro-Russians: The US orchestrated a coup! - Acceptable truth.

Me: Putin had Nemtsov and other politicians murdered (for various reasons). - Unacceptable, 9-11 style conspiracy logic.

[Teemant]

You say this as if they're suffering the most right now, Europe I mean. So far, I've not been hearing a whole lot about how this is effecting Europe financially, and I'm partial to saying it isn't affecting them as much as you think it is. One thing I will say is that gas prices in Canada at least actually went DOWN. Of course, that was due to over production, but prices have been going up again, but not high enough that it would indicate the Russia incident is causing a sort of oil crisis. It could potentially happen, but at the moment, the only nation being hurt is Russia. Plus, I almost forgot, a lot of the financial damage done to Russian businesses could be remedied later.... By foreign investment. I don't think that prospect should look totally appealing to Putin, unless it's almost all coming from China.

It wasn't oil, it was gas. Ukraine has put itself in a really awkward situation, where it basically demonises Russia but still expects gas from them for heating... yeah no. The first rule of Diplomatics 101 is not to piss off the guy you want to trade with.

Well it's not quite like that because Russia wants to sell gas to Ukraine even now. One could say that Russia need Ukraine more than Ukraine needs Russia because Ukraine is also a transit country.

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

It wasn't oil, it was gas. Ukraine has put itself in a really awkward situation, where it basically demonises Russia but still expects gas from them for heating... yeah no. The first rule of Diplomatics 101 is not to piss off the guy you want to trade with.

Well it's not quite like that because Russia wants to sell gas to Ukraine even now. One could say that Russia need Ukraine more than Ukraine needs Russia because Ukraine is also a transit country.

Its desirable for Russia to sell gas to Ukraine because its part of the route that gas takes through Southern Europe. However, I think that if Russia turned off the gas tonight, Ukraine would be the country which suffered more.

[Korva]

Nothing would have happened if the US didn't orchestrate a coup in Ukraine.

When the US orchestrates coups, they tend to go a lot smoother than EuroMaidan did.

Can the conspiracy theories for a change. They're unflattering.

Um excuse me but where else would the EuroMaidan Nazis/fascists/Polish mercenaries have gotten their wooden boards, construction helmets, and paper procedure masks from?

CIA armament program if I ever saw one.

[Teemant]

Well it's not quite like that because Russia wants to sell gas to Ukraine even now. One could say that Russia need Ukraine more than Ukraine needs Russia because Ukraine is also a transit country.

Its desirable for Russia to sell gas to Ukraine because its part of the route that gas takes through Southern Europe. However, I think that if Russia turned off the gas tonight, Ukraine would be the country which suffered more.

It is soon summer so it wouldn't be that dramatic either.

[Bratislavskaya]

Nothing would have happened if the US didn't orchestrate a coup in Ukraine.

When the US orchestrates coups, they tend to go a lot smoother than EuroMaidan did.

Because we all know how smooth the Chilean coup, Afghan War (1980s), Bay of Pigs Invasion, and Syrian Civil War went.

[Teemant]

When the US orchestrates coups, they tend to go a lot smoother than EuroMaidan did.

Because we all know how smooth the Chilean coup, Afghan War (1980s), Bay of Pigs Invasion, and Syrian Civil War went.

By the way there wasn't US coup when Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Afghanistan had leftist coup and Soviet Union took down new leader that was friendly towards Moscow.
Syrian Civil War and a coup? What the heck.

[Bratislavskaya]

Because we all know how smooth the Chilean coup, Afghan War (1980s), Bay of Pigs Invasion, and Syrian Civil War went.

By the way there wasn't US coup when Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Afghanistan had leftist coup and Soviet Union took down new leader that was friendly towards Moscow.
Syrian Civil War and a coup? What the heck.

US Funded the opposition to the government in both cases.

[Teemant]

By the way there wasn't US coup when Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Afghanistan had leftist coup and Soviet Union took down new leader that was friendly towards Moscow.
Syrian Civil War and a coup? What the heck.

US Funded the opposition to the government in both cases.

I think you should do more research about Afghanistan War (1980s). By the way there are documentaries where ex-soviet soldiers talk about it too. America got involved later.

[Bratislavskaya]

US Funded the opposition to the government in both cases.

I think you should do more research about Afghanistan War (1980s). By the way there are documentaries where ex-soviet soldiers talk about it too. America got involved later.

I have done enough research to know that the US Government funded the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, and Reagan went as far as to call them "Freedom Fighters".

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Are you stupid? Russia isn't even normal capitalistic country. Huge corruption, laws doesn't work, unfair competition etc. No wonder it failed.

This is unnecessary, and you should know better than to resort to that level of snarkery. You've got a clean record so far, so I don't see a need to go beyond an UNOFFICIAL WARNING to not stoop to flaming, baiting, or trolling in your posts. Thanks.

[Teemant]

I think you should do more research about Afghanistan War (1980s). By the way there are documentaries where ex-soviet soldiers talk about it too. America got involved later.

I have done enough research to know that the US Government funded the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, and Reagan went as far as to call them "Freedom Fighters".

Was talking about alleged coup. Didn't say that US didn't assist mujahideen fighting against Soviet Union.

[Teemant]

Are you stupid? Russia isn't even normal capitalistic country. Huge corruption, laws doesn't work, unfair competition etc. No wonder it failed.

This is unnecessary, and you should know better than to resort to that level of snarkery. You've got a clean record so far, so I don't see a need to go beyond an UNOFFICIAL WARNING to not stoop to flaming, baiting, or trolling in your posts. Thanks.

Won't happen again. I tend to get bit emotional when it comes to topics involving Russia.

[Imperial City-States]

So just a generic question. How many of those who are supposed 'Communist' actually lived in a 'Communist' Country? By that i mean how many of you actually lived in the old Soviet Union or other similar areas?

Personally seems like alot of people are discussing the pro's of the Soviet Government without actually having experience it themselves.


Similar example i could throw out would be people discussing the Pro's of the American VA vs having to actually sit through the VA's red tape.

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

So just a generic question. How many of those who are supposed 'Communist' actually lived in a 'Communist' Country? By that i mean how many of you actually lived in the old Soviet Union or other similar areas?

Personally seems like alot of people are discussing the pro's of the Soviet Government without actually having experience it themselves.


Similar example i could throw out would be people discussing the Pro's of the American VA vs having to actually sit through the VA's red tape.

Why does it matter if you live there or not? That's what research is for- to find out about things you're not familiar with. You should try it sometime.

[Imperial City-States]

So just a generic question. How many of those who are supposed 'Communist' actually lived in a 'Communist' Country? By that i mean how many of you actually lived in the old Soviet Union or other similar areas?

Personally seems like alot of people are discussing the pro's of the Soviet Government without actually having experience it themselves.


Similar example i could throw out would be people discussing the Pro's of the American VA vs having to actually sit through the VA's red tape.

Why does it matter if you live there or not? That's what research is for- to find out about things you're not familiar with. You should try it sometime.

No amount of reading can ever equate to experience. You can read about sex or drug usage as much as you want but if you never experience the act you have no idea what it's really like.

If you didn't endure the system you have no idea what it was really like. Research may give you an idea but it is by no means accurate means of the system's actual effects.

People who support a 'Communist' system and yet have never lived under or experienced it. How can you defend something that you have no real clue about?