Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

When communism fell, Russia nearly fell with it. The economy shrunk by half or something in like 5 years. GDP per capita has risen now but Russia is nowadays like Saudi Arabia- A huge amount of wealth, concentrated in the hands of a few hundred oligarchs. Most poorer Russians, as confirmed by polling, prefer the more egalitarian days of the USSR to the corrupt rump state that Russia is now.

Pretty much this.

Thank you

I don't quite understand what you are saying, but Putin didn't the draft the bill - the State Duma did. And the State Duma passed it. From a populist standpoint, Putin has to either sign the bill or face problems within his party. I don't think he is necessary anti-Homosexual, he just doesn't feel empathy for them/is apathetic towards him.
I don't necessarily agree with that law, like most of Russia's internal policies, and upwards of a year (and a bit now) ago I was heavily criticising of Russia. I still am critical of its internal policies.
But there's something not quite right when everyone starts criticising Russia like a hangman patsy when the US has, arguably, done more worse without the entire world coming down with crippling sanctions.

Not even going to mention how the US has, and continues to support, regimes which have far far far far worse LGBT/human rights than Russia (Saudi Arabia, anyone?).

Critical of internal policies but supporting Russian foreign politics? I think it is clear now. It's that case again - people who support Russia trying to act badass in international politics but would never want to live in a country like this themselves. They always wish Russia for other people.

Is this mental thing? Do they will more manly and powerful supporting Russia? I think it should be reasearched what this phenomenon is.

No, its just people who support Russia over certain (not all) issues of foreign policy are not absolute hypocrites like Americans are when they put sanctions on Russia whilst taking advantage of just about all countries of the world. And if you don't want to be exploited by America? They put crippling sanctions on you, and may even invade.

[Teemant]

Pretty much this.

Thank you

Critical of internal policies but supporting Russian foreign politics? I think it is clear now. It's that case again - people who support Russia trying to act badass in international politics but would never want to live in a country like this themselves. They always wish Russia for other people.

Is this mental thing? Do they will more manly and powerful supporting Russia? I think it should be reasearched what this phenomenon is.

No, its just people who support Russia over certain (not all) issues of foreign policy are not absolute hypocrites like Americans are when they put sanctions on Russia whilst taking advantage of just about all countries of the world. And if you don't want to be exploited by America? They put crippling sanctions on you, and may even invade.

America, america, america... Always blaming America. Will it ever stop?

Don't forget that European sanctions are the ones that hit Russia the hardest. Europe is worried and should be worried because Russia has annexed part of European country.

[Jinwoy]

Thank you


No, its just people who support Russia over certain (not all) issues of foreign policy are not absolute hypocrites like Americans are when they put sanctions on Russia whilst taking advantage of just about all countries of the world. And if you don't want to be exploited by America? They put crippling sanctions on you, and may even invade.

America, america, america... Always blaming America. Will it ever stop?

Don't forget that European sanctions are the ones that hit Russia the hardest. Europe is worried and should be worried because Russia has annexed part of European country.

Then it shouldn't surprise you that an alarming number of European countries want the sanctions on Russia lifted?

[Teemant]

America, america, america... Always blaming America. Will it ever stop?

Don't forget that European sanctions are the ones that hit Russia the hardest. Europe is worried and should be worried because Russia has annexed part of European country.

Then it shouldn't surprise you that an alarming number of European countries want the sanctions on Russia lifted?

Alarming number?

Greece and perhaps Hungary.

[Jinwoy]

Critical of internal policies but supporting Russian foreign politics? I think it is clear now. It's that case again - people who support Russia trying to act badass in international politics but would never want to live in a country like this themselves. They always wish Russia for other people.

Is this mental thing? Do they will more manly and powerful supporting Russia? I think it should be researched what this phenomenon is.

I think you have it back to front - if I supported Russian interior policy, but didn't want to move there, then I would be a hypocrite. But I don't,
If I support Russian foreign policy, it basically means you can't magically make a bogeyman out of Russia overnight and expect me to believe that's the entire story.

[Dalcaria]

If religion "wasn't big" during the Soviet era, one would expect Russia to be more like Japan or China than, well, Russia. Though Russia does seem a bit odd to me in terms of religion. From the outside looking in, I could almost mistake a lot of them for being "Cultural Christians" (refer to Anders Brevik for more on that), but I haven't seen enough of their religiousness being practiced to say for sure. Either way, religion may have been banned during the Soviet era, but that doesn't mean it was any less influential.

Religion has made a comeback in Russia during Putin era. Now religion is promoted...

Regardless of what you think, I'd need to see some actual evidence to suggest Russians were legitimately more atheist during the Soviet period, and I'd also be interested in seeing some explanation for why that suddenly changed afterwards. Not many staunch atheists switch to being religious, so if some folks did switch, it gives me the impression they weren't very staunch atheists before.

[Teemant]

Critical of internal policies but supporting Russian foreign politics? I think it is clear now. It's that case again - people who support Russia trying to act badass in international politics but would never want to live in a country like this themselves. They always wish Russia for other people.

Is this mental thing? Do they will more manly and powerful supporting Russia? I think it should be researched what this phenomenon is.

I think you have it back to front - if I supported Russian interior policy, but didn't want to move there, then I would be a hypocrite. But I don't,
If I support Russian foreign policy, it basically means you can't magically make a bogeyman out of Russia overnight and expect me to believe that's the entire story.

Nothing would have happened if Russia wouldn't have annexed Crimea.

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

Thank you


No, its just people who support Russia over certain (not all) issues of foreign policy are not absolute hypocrites like Americans are when they put sanctions on Russia whilst taking advantage of just about all countries of the world. And if you don't want to be exploited by America? They put crippling sanctions on you, and may even invade.

America, america, america... Always blaming America. Will it ever stop?

Don't forget that European sanctions are the ones that hit Russia the hardest. Europe is worried and should be worried because Russia has annexed part of European country.

It will only stop when America stops abusing most of the rest of the world.
Many countries in Europe don't want to put sanctions on Russia- Again, it is America that is "guiding" EU foreign policy, largely dictated by the larger countries such as France, Germany and Britain which are all in NATO and so probably quite happy to place sanctions on Russia.
Most countries in Europe are being hit hard back too- Greece is seeking to abandon sanctions, for instance, because they are costing its economy billions.

Europe is worried and should be worried because Russia has annexed part of European country.

Sorry let me correct that for you: Russia has annexed a part of a non-EU member state, an annexation that the people in the area voted for in a referendum, because the country they wanted to leave was and still is run by what is essentially a group of Nazis. And believe me, I don't use that word lightly, but these people are Nazis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

[Jinwoy]

Then it shouldn't surprise you that an alarming number of European countries want the sanctions on Russia lifted?

Alarming number?

Greece and perhaps Hungary.

France, Germany, Luxembourg, Austria, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Slovenia, and Italy.
Also Hungary, apparently. I didn't even know that one until you pointed it out.
Italy was the first country to speak out against Russian sanctions. Rosneft, the world’s largest listed oil company, recently acquired a 26.2 percent stake in Italian tire company Pirelli.
On June 20 2014, Czech President Milos Zeman came out against sanctioning Russia, saying there is “no reason” to further “isolate” the country.
Greece has expressed numerous times that it doesn't like the sanctions, since it really cripples their local food industries exports.

[Jinwoy]

I think you have it back to front - if I supported Russian interior policy, but didn't want to move there, then I would be a hypocrite. But I don't,
If I support Russian foreign policy, it basically means you can't magically make a bogeyman out of Russia overnight and expect me to believe that's the entire story.

Nothing would have happened if Russia wouldn't have annexed Crimea.

Nothing would have happened if the US didn't orchestrate a coup in Ukraine.

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

Religion has made a comeback in Russia during Putin era. Now religion is promoted...

Regardless of what you think, I'd need to see some actual evidence to suggest Russians were legitimately more atheist during the Soviet period, and I'd also be interested in seeing some explanation for why that suddenly changed afterwards. Not many staunch atheists switch to being religious, so if some folks did switch, it gives me the impression they weren't very staunch atheists before.

I think there were more atheists in Soviet times. But now people are not afraid to bring their children up religious anymore so it is making a comeback.
Even so, there were, according to wiki, 57.5 million orthodox christians in the USSR, 4 million Armenian Christians, 5.5 million Catholics and 45-50 million Muslims. Quite a lot.

[Teemant]

Alarming number?

Greece and perhaps Hungary.

France, Germany, Luxembourg, Austria, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Slovenia, and Italy.
Also Hungary, apparently. I didn't even know that one until you pointed it out.
Italy was the first country to speak out against Russian sanctions. Rosneft, the world’s largest listed oil company, recently acquired a 26.2 percent stake in Italian tire company Pirelli.
On June 20 2014, Czech President Milos Zeman came out against sanctioning Russia, saying there is “no reason” to further “isolate” the country.
Greece has expressed numerous times that it doesn't like the sanctions, since it really cripples their local food industries exports.

Germany? Seriously. Germany is the one leading sanctions.
France has threatend Russia with more sanctions if attacks continue. Only one claiming that France wants to lift sanctions is Russian media.

Do you know that Italy's attitude has also changed. Some European countries thought during January that maybe we can end these sanctions but Russia continued offensive in the Ukraine next month that changed everything.

Only one in your list that wants sanctions to end right now is Greece.

[Jinwoy]

France, Germany, Luxembourg, Austria, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Slovenia, and Italy.
Also Hungary, apparently. I didn't even know that one until you pointed it out.
Italy was the first country to speak out against Russian sanctions. Rosneft, the world’s largest listed oil company, recently acquired a 26.2 percent stake in Italian tire company Pirelli.
On June 20 2014, Czech President Milos Zeman came out against sanctioning Russia, saying there is “no reason” to further “isolate” the country.
Greece has expressed numerous times that it doesn't like the sanctions, since it really cripples their local food industries exports.

Germany? Seriously. Germany is the one leading sanctions.
France has threatend Russia with more sanctions if attacks continue. Only one claiming that France wants to lift sanctions is Russian media.

Do you know that Italy's attitude has also changed. Some European countries thought during January that maybe we can end these sanctions but Russia continued offensive in the Ukraine next month.

Only one in your list that right now (at the moment) wants sanctions to end is Greece.

You should back your claims up as I have did for mine. The continuing for sanctions is only being pressed by the State Dept. (No really) and the only country not falling for it is China, since the US can't really pressure China into doing anything.

[Teemant]

Germany? Seriously. Germany is the one leading sanctions.
France has threatend Russia with more sanctions if attacks continue. Only one claiming that France wants to lift sanctions is Russian media.

Do you know that Italy's attitude has also changed. Some European countries thought during January that maybe we can end these sanctions but Russia continued offensive in the Ukraine next month.

Only one in your list that right now (at the moment) wants sanctions to end is Greece.

You should back your claims up as I have did for mine. The continuing for sanctions is only being pressed by the State Dept. (No really) and the only country not falling for it is China, since the US can't really pressure China into doing anything.

You didn't back shit up. Not a single source. Give me source that is less than 2 months old (and not RT) because as I mentioned many countries changed their attitudes when Russia continued attacks during february that led to Minsk 2 deal.

[Dalcaria]

Wait, has that seriously been confirmed? Because if they are, how many of us were calling that like last year! Bear in mind, there's nothing wrong with being Russian, but the point of folks like me is it does kind of create a point of bias. Not that there's anything wrong with having a bias, but once you start calling sources like BBC and Reuters biased, one starts too question your credibility.

Once more for the record, I'm a Canadian national, ethnically British (with a bit of French). I honestly have no reason to be biased against Russia. In fact, I used to cheer for them at the Olympics, hoping they would be Canada of all things! Course, that changed a tad when Putin started making anti-homosexual and "pedophilia" "propaganda" laws. I've always found it rather curious that he lumped homosexuality in with pedophilia. I guess that's just "Russian values"? A "stupid westerner" couldn't possibly understand (despite the number of Russians who don't share these "values").

Frankly, I'm a little lost for what "Pro-Russian" even is these days. I did a look on wikipedia about Chechnya. Turns out their current President (as I understand it, each separate region in Russia has a "president", though I'm assuming they are in effect more like Governors or Premiers) is an ex-rebel of some kind, a Muslim one. In fact, he's also a member of the United Russia Party! Funny how popular that party seems to be.... Everywhere? Even more interesting was the President's thoughts on the Charlie Hebdo incident. Didn't really sound like it was echoing the thoughts of people who reject religious extremism. Oh, and then there was that article (was it CNN or NY Times? Gotta go back an look) about the wedding parties this guy went to. Chunks of gold for wedding presents, throwing money at child dancers (and I stress CHILD DANCERS), really interesting stuff. In case any of you are curious, typically this would warrant a corruption investigation in most other countries. Oh, and a child abuse investigation perhaps. Just saying.

It's stuff like this that does make it easy to point blame at Chechnya for everything, isn't it? Curious that Putin hasn't tried to reign in his party members a little better, seems good enough at doing that with his opponents.

I don't quite understand what you are saying, but Putin didn't the draft the bill - the State Duma did. And the State Duma passed it. From a populist standpoint, Putin has to either sign the bill or face problems within his party. I don't think he is necessary anti-Homosexual, he just doesn't feel empathy for them/is apathetic towards him.
I don't necessarily agree with that law, like most of Russia's internal policies, and upwards of a year (and a bit now) ago I was heavily criticising of Russia. I still am critical of its internal policies.
But there's something not quite right when everyone starts criticising Russia like a hangman patsy when the US has, arguably, done more worse without the entire world coming down with crippling sanctions.

Not even going to mention how the US has, and continues to support, regimes which have far far far far worse LGBT/human rights than Russia (Saudi Arabia, anyone?).

And was it popular in the eyes of the Duma to support the presidency of a man in Chechnya who says things like "we will not allow anyone to insult the prophet, even if it will cost us our lives"? Also, it's fairly clear to me the man doesn't feel any empathy towards them, if they're being gang beaten and having urine dumped on them while he remains silent on the matter. See, in most other countries, this is condemned by people, and don't bother bringing up "values" because the Christians over here don't support this kind of Nazi behavior either.

Critical of internal politics, but not external. How amusing. As if starting a war tantamount to Lebensraum was more morally acceptable than anything else the "Duma" has passed. And please, do remind us again of how "Fascist" the Ukrainians are. I'm curious to know what Tatars in Crimea are saying too! And I do so wonder how much longer it will be before Poland, Estonia, Finland, etc. start being called Fascist too. Oh wait, Finland already has been called a number of nasty things! By a man I do believe has been connected to Putin oddly. Strange bedfellows and all that.

Oh give me a break. You clearly don't understand WHY the US doesn't get punished. Because you CAN'T. They're too economically and militarily important to the world. Trying to sanction them would be basically the same as sanctioning your own grocery store, bank, gas station, etc. etc. America doesn't even produce that much and it still manages to outpace far more industrialized nations like China! Does this make America good? No, absolutely not! But the reason we put sanctions on Russia is because Russia IS doing bad things and we CAN get away with doing it! This isn't some great big Illuminati Conspiracy against Russia, because trust me, if it was, America would have made sure Russia ended up with a more friendly President!

Yes, and supporting Syria is a step in the direction of a moral paradigm! Stop deflecting criticism away from Russia's international politics by screaming "AMERICA!" and deal with the criticism being dealt. Deflection is SO annoying, especially since virtually nobody here supports America's international politics! I know I don't at the very least! Anybody here actually think supporting a nation that executes homosexuals is a good idea? The only thing I can say in America's defense is that they get some things right sometimes. Not always, but they can be right from time to time. But bearing in mind, they chose bedfellows who would help keep them in power. Can you honestly sit there and tell me that if Russia was in America's position, Putin wouldn't have supported Arabia? Because at the end of the day, politicians almost always put their country first, I would find it very surprising if Putin put morality above finances when basically no one else does.

[United Marxist Nations]

Const, Shof and Lytt are all from Russia. Shof is the only one out of Russia, in California.
I'm not even Russophilic, I'm just generally Pro-Russia these days.

Apart from that, the only people benefiting from the capitalisation of Russia aaaare, drumroll please, the rich.
That's right. Living Standards have fallen for the majority of the Post-Soviet Russian people, and this is reflected in their elections (CPRF second place? That doesn't sound right for people who are supposed to hate Communists!)

Constantinopolis is Russian? I recall him saying that he couldn't read Russian...

No, he was in the Warsaw Pact.

[Jinwoy]

You should back your claims up as I have did for mine. The continuing for sanctions is only being pressed by the State Dept. (No really) and the only country not falling for it is China, since the US can't really pressure China into doing anything.

You didn't back shit up. Not a single source. Give me source that is less than 2 months old (and not RT) because as I mentioned many countries changed their attitudes when Russia continued attacks during february that led to Minsk 2 deal.

Your turn:
http://www.dw.de/germany-warns-against- ... a-18169784
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 3960826054
http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-minister ... 1426504541
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/world ... .html?_r=0

[United Marxist Nations]

Constantinopolis is Russian? I recall him saying that he couldn't read Russian...

I have understood that Constantinopolis is a religious person. If he would have lived in Soviet Union KGB would have paid him a visit.

[United Marxist Nations]

Constantinopolis is Russian? I recall him saying that he couldn't read Russian...

I have understood that Constantinopolis is a religious person. If he would have lived in Soviet Union KGB would have paid him a visit.

[Dalcaria]

Regardless of what you think, I'd need to see some actual evidence to suggest Russians were legitimately more atheist during the Soviet period, and I'd also be interested in seeing some explanation for why that suddenly changed afterwards. Not many staunch atheists switch to being religious, so if some folks did switch, it gives me the impression they weren't very staunch atheists before.

I think there were more atheists in Soviet times. But now people are not afraid to bring their children up religious anymore so it is making a comeback.
Even so, there were, according to wiki, 57.5 million orthodox christians in the USSR, 4 million Armenian Christians, 5.5 million Catholics and 45-50 million Muslims. Quite a lot.

I have no doubt there were, but it goes without saying that it's probably no as common for atheists to convert to Christianity. Of course, I could be wrong on that, given that I was in a similar situation myself. But regardless, you're right, those numbers are considerably large, particularly the Muslim numbers.

[Jinwoy]

I don't quite understand what you are saying, but Putin didn't the draft the bill - the State Duma did. And the State Duma passed it. From a populist standpoint, Putin has to either sign the bill or face problems within his party. I don't think he is necessary anti-Homosexual, he just doesn't feel empathy for them/is apathetic towards him.
I don't necessarily agree with that law, like most of Russia's internal policies, and upwards of a year (and a bit now) ago I was heavily criticising of Russia. I still am critical of its internal policies.
But there's something not quite right when everyone starts criticising Russia like a hangman patsy when the US has, arguably, done more worse without the entire world coming down with crippling sanctions.

Not even going to mention how the US has, and continues to support, regimes which have far far far far worse LGBT/human rights than Russia (Saudi Arabia, anyone?).

And was it popular in the eyes of the Duma to support the presidency of a man in Chechnya who says things like "we will not allow anyone to insult the prophet, even if it will cost us our lives"? Also, it's fairly clear to me the man doesn't feel any empathy towards them, if they're being gang beaten and having urine dumped on them while he remains silent on the matter. See, in most other countries, this is condemned by people, and don't bother bringing up "values" because the Christians over here don't support this kind of Nazi behavior either.

Critical of internal politics, but not external. How amusing. As if starting a war tantamount to Lebensraum was more morally acceptable than anything else the "Duma" has passed. And please, do remind us again of how "Fascist" the Ukrainians are. I'm curious to know what Tatars in Crimea are saying too! And I do so wonder how much longer it will be before Poland, Estonia, Finland, etc. start being called Fascist too. Oh wait, Finland already has been called a number of nasty things! By a man I do believe has been connected to Putin oddly. Strange bedfellows and all that.

Oh give me a break. You clearly don't understand WHY the US doesn't get punished. Because you CAN'T. They're too economically and militarily important to the world. Trying to sanction them would be basically the same as sanctioning your own grocery store, bank, gas station, etc. etc. America doesn't even produce that much and it still manages to outpace far more industrialized nations like China! Does this make America good? No, absolutely not! But the reason we put sanctions on Russia is because Russia IS doing bad things and we CAN get away with doing it! This isn't some great big Illuminati Conspiracy against Russia, because trust me, if it was, America would have made sure Russia ended up with a more friendly President!

Yes, and supporting Syria is a step in the direction of a moral paradigm! Stop deflecting criticism away from Russia's international politics by screaming "AMERICA!" and deal with the criticism being dealt. Deflection is SO annoying, especially since virtually nobody here supports America's international politics! I know I don't at the very least! Anybody here actually think supporting a nation that executes homosexuals is a good idea? The only thing I can say in America's defense is that they get some things right sometimes. Not always, but they can be right from time to time. But bearing in mind, they chose bedfellows who would help keep them in power. Can you honestly sit there and tell me that if Russia was in America's position, Putin wouldn't have supported Arabia? Because at the end of the day, politicians almost always put their country first, I would find it very surprising if Putin put morality above finances when basically no one else does.

Your post is so full of shit I don't even know where to begin deconstructing it (Goodluck Shof or UMN!), but I can say that the US is one of the biggest producers of oil in the world.

[Costa Fierro]

I have understood that Constantinopolis is a religious person. If he would have lived in Soviet Union KGB would have paid him a visit.

I wonder if they said "to good health".

[Jinwoy]

I have understood that Constantinopolis is a religious person. If he would have lived in Soviet Union KGB would have paid him a visit.

For those of you who do not know, and I'm sure there's some of you out there (you know who you are), the guy on the left is Leonid Brezhnev - Premier of the Soviet Union.

[Teemant]

You didn't back shit up. Not a single source. Give me source that is less than 2 months old (and not RT) because as I mentioned many countries changed their attitudes when Russia continued attacks during february that led to Minsk 2 deal.

Your turn:
http://www.dw.de/germany-warns-against- ... a-18169784
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 3960826054
http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-minister ... 1426504541
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/world ... .html?_r=0

1) Article says that Merkel wants thougher sanctions. Who is the most important person in Germany? Merkel of course.
2) Germany businesses isn't Germany's goverment. And this article is from May 1 2014 - Things were so different back then. Germany has pushed for harsher sanctions recently.
3) Ministers have different opinions. But they still continued with sanctions.
4) From Jan 5. 2015. Meanwhile 1,5 months later http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/12/ukraine-crisis-france-idUSP6N0TG01Y20150212 Hollande says Russia risks more sanctions.

[Dalcaria]

You didn't back shit up. Not a single source. Give me source that is less than 2 months old (and not RT) because as I mentioned many countries changed their attitudes when Russia continued attacks during february that led to Minsk 2 deal.

Your turn:
http://www.dw.de/germany-warns-against- ... a-18169784
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 3960826054
http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-minister ... 1426504541
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/world ... .html?_r=0

Let's bare in mind, more sanctions in Russia could cause long lasting damage economically speaking, including to the oil industry. Say what you will about Europe, Putin is also trying to butt heads with them by continuing to support this war it's easy to assume he started. No matter how you look at it, it's just two men standing, head against head, wrestling to put a gun against the side of the other guy's head. Doesn't matter who pulls the trigger, the bullet will go through both heads. Russia faces the potential of economic damage, Europe faces the potential of hard to get oil, or considerably higher prices at the very least (importing from the Middle East would drive up the prices in Europe, and possibly globally). So I think it's important for folks on both sides to this debate how serious these sanctions are, whether you support them or not.